Re: Mechanon's Self Destruct

[Guest innominatus]

1.) If the "Hero System Rules" board isn't the proper forum for discussing "design philosophy", when where IS the proper forum? Certainly I can exchange opinions back & forth with other players in any forum, but I would be interested in learning the "official party line" on why certain rules and powers were changed from the way they were in 4th Edition when they already seemed to work perfectly well. Is there a FAQ on WHY the revisions were made?

 

2.) I understand your point that a debate over which way is the "right" way to simulate various effects would ultimately be meaningless because at the end of the day we would only be comparing opinions and there's no absolute right or wrong with regard to opinions. My contention is simply that the GAME MECHANIC used in the Champions book to achieve the desired special effect (having Mechanon's head detach from his body so he can return and fight another day) won't work because, as the rules are written, they don't do what you want them to do. Either that, or your understanding of the rules (in this instance) is vastly different from mine. To wit: assume a character (any character will do) can create Duplicates that are less powerful than the original. If the original character is killed, can one of the duplicates be designated the "new" original, and gain the increased power level of the original even though the points were never paid to make said duplicate as powerful as the original? Or would the Duplicate have to wait until he can afford to buy back the difference in points between the original and duplicate before he can be declared the new "original"? And what happens if there's only one duplicate, like in the case of Mechanon? Even though the points were only paid for a 768 pt. Duplicate, does the detached head spontaneously gain the ability to become a 1,251 pt. character at the GM's whim so that the extra points spent on the original don't simply disappear into the ether?

 

It would appear that your Duplication method for simulating the special effect requires a certain amount of holding one's nose and saying, "I'm the GM, so it just happens the way I want it to." The Shape Shift method requires a lot less "Because-I-said-so"-ism, in my estimation; the Shapeshifted Mechanon has the exact same stats and powers as your lesser Duplicate, plus there's no expectation that Mechanon will spontaneously acquire enough extra XP's to make up for whatever he might've lost by being stranded as a single, lesser-powered Duplicate form. Although in retrospect, it occurs to me that neither option is ideal, since both the Duplicated Mechanon and the Shapeshifted one would start out with the same damage and states (Flashed, Mind Controlled, etc.) as the original and would likely be in pretty sorry shape if Mechanon was forced to exercise his "escape clause" in the first place. What might be better is to add a Triggered Summon of a fanatically loyal member Mechanon head with the "Arrives under own power" Limitation. If it's at all possible for the head to make its escape, then the "Summoned" head would simply detach on the spot and flee, and could then Shape Shift back by having his robotic factory assemble a new body for the head to attach to. If the head was some how disabled at the same time, then Mechanon's body sends out a coded signal to the same base, and downloads the memories to the cybernetic brain of a fresh (Game Mechanic: Summoned the nearest existing) head. The factory then assembles a new body around the head (Game Mechanic: the head Shape Shifts into the full body), which could then head to the spot of the former model's demise. In either case, since (in game mechanics terms) the abandoned body can't be "salvaged" for technology except as a plot device, the GM could just rule that it self-destructed for free.

 

The ability to return from the dead the way Mechanon is scripted as being able to do is a valuable and useful one, and should be costly. He should have to pay for it rather than just having the GM wave his hands at it and say "He transmits his memories via his shielded communicator and it just happens." Since the means to construct the ability exists within the rules, there's no reason NOT to do it; and having the points spent and recorded on the character sheet adds to the character's point total, which as I suggested in other posts is useful as a general indicator of the villain's potency , if nothing else. I'm all for using "Common Sense Combat Value", as you so eloquently put it, when the situation requires and there's either no other way to handle a situation or no need to expend so much thought worrying about the implications. But why rely on plot devices and GM fiat, when the existing rules can handle the situation just fine?

[Steve Long]

The "HERO System Discussion" board is generally the appropriate one for discussing design philosophy (which is why I've moved this there). However, that's mostly for the fans, since you'll rarely find me answering such questions. They take too much of my time and in the end only cause more problems than they solve.

 

I disagree entirely that the method I chose for building Mechanon is poorer, or requires more GM fiat, than the method you suggest. I further disagree that the game mechanic doesn't work for the effect I want. If you're so deeply troubled by it, just change his Duplication to provide X Duplicates of his entire body, assume any Mechanon the PCs meet is one of the Dupes, and have the head fly back to join the original. And that's about all I intend to say on the matter.

[Guest innominatus]

That's fine that you "disagree entirely"; however, it still doesn't answer the questions I posed. Now, in the FAQ on this board, it states that the "default" situation when the original version of a Duplicated character is killed, the duplicates would lose the ability to merge back with one another. That being the case, and presupposing the duplicate DOESN'T have hundreds of unspent points handy, how would a lesser duplicate (who didn't pay the points to be an exact copy of the original) regain access to all the powers the original had when the original is a melted heap of slag and is no longer even available to merge with?

 

Now, I'd like to think that I've presented my case in an organized and rational manner, citing the appropriate rules and precedents where appropriate. And while I realize at this point getting a direct answer from Mr. Long is probably pretty slim (this debate having moved from being a direct question to him to being just another thread in a public forum), can SOMEbody walk me through the mechanics of how Duplication DOES work to achieve the goal we know the designers were trying to achieve? Without invoking "GM Decree" or an arbitrary infusion of hundreds of extra Character Points, and in a way that's supported by the rules as they're spelled out in the books and interpreted in the FAQ section?

[Tom McCarthy]

Well, I preferred the 4th edition Mechanon reconstruction example for power construction (no points, nothing on the character sheet).

 

While I think Mechanon could have been built multiple ways, the published example does serve to clearly outline how to run the character (in terms of SFX and narrative) so it's a decent example.

 

There are enough alternative ways to do it, that it may not be worthwhile to debate them.

 

Mechanon is an AI the players never see, who summons the robotic forms they do fight.

Mechanon is an AI with duplicates which are the forms the characters fight.

Mechanon's self destruct shape changes or multi-forms him into the weaker flying head. maybe the head is the true form and the body is subject to accidental change when it takes too much damage.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, when I first saw this, it struck me as a little odd too. Then I remembered the example "Astral Form" Power from the sidebar on FREd p. 101, which builds the Astral Form as a Desolid Duplicate of the character with the Limitation, "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless While Duplicate Exists" (-1). Mechanically, Mechanon detaching his head while leaving his inert body behind is almost identical to this.

 

Now strictly speaking, you're right in that if the body that has the Duplication Power is destroyed, the head should not be able to recombine. Since you want to set dramatic license aside and find a rules rationale for this , I might suggest that since the bodies have that Power, and since Mechanon is supposed to keep spare backup bodies in hidden locations, each spare body would potentially be the base form for that single Duplicated head, with only one body active at a time, so it would still work out.

 

Note that this version of Mechanon does not have any points listed for bases (the 4E incarnation did), but since he is supposed to have them, I personally would account for these backup bodies as Followers drawn from those additional points, perhaps costed to the head Duplicate directly.

 

All that being said, my own preference would have been to either use a Multiform for the head, perhaps with a "Leaves Body Behind" Disadvantage, or make the head the base form and the body the Duplicate. The latter option would be much more expensive since the same Limitations wouldn't apply, and not follow the Astral Form precedent as closely. All in all, though, the way Steve did it doesn't really offend my rules sensibilities, and with the addition of the Followers I'd be satisfied with it. Of course, YMMV.

[Talon]

Originally posted by innominatus

Now, I'd like to think that I've presented my case in an organized and rational manner, citing the appropriate rules and precedents where appropriate. And while I realize at this point getting a direct answer from Mr. Long is probably pretty slim (this debate having moved from being a direct question to him to being just another thread in a public forum), can SOMEbody walk me through the mechanics of how Duplication DOES work to achieve the goal we know the designers were trying to achieve? Without invoking "GM Decree" or an arbitrary infusion of hundreds of extra Character Points, and in a way that's supported by the rules as they're spelled out in the books and interpreted in the FAQ section?

 

No, because the power technically does not work as written. What Steve is trying to do is encourage people to do some of this "hand waving" in circumstances where strict adherence to the rules isn't necessary (in this case, because a master villain like Mechanon has all the points he needs). This may upset your sense of rules-logic (it does mine!), but that's how Steve has chosen to present things. As he once put it, when you put your life savings on the line to buy the game system, you can do it the way you want.

 

This kind of thing bugs me too...but it's such an improvement over the previous generations of Hero that I'm willing to let it slide. Never in the life of the Hero System has there been such support from the company, not only in terms of supplemental material published but also in the use of the game's rules to appropriately describe the game world.

[Guest innominatus]

All those things you mentioned (the disembodied head is the true form, Mechanon is really an AI located somewhere else and it merely "summons" robots to do its bidding, and so on) are all perfectly valid ideas, and they each would work very well as individual villains writeups; but they're not WHAT WE SEE when we look at Mechanon's character sheet! The fact that all those ways of handling Mechanon's consciousness are possible to build with the rules, yet the designers DIDN'T build them that way, indicates that Mechanon is something OTHER than those ideas -- namely, an individual entity contained within a specific physical body.

 

In a like vein, there are probably at least a dozen different ways to execute Mechanon's "escape clause" with the existing rules. So I ask: WHY DUPLICATION? What does that specific game mechanic offer that other means (Shape Shift to a detached head and go back to base to Shift back, Summon a new Mechanon to take its place, etc.) don't? How do you get around the fact that, since the original body (the one that had all his attack Multipowers and Strength and stuff) was destroyed, the head can't merge back with it and regain all those abilities again unless he can pony up another 480+ XP's? And how can you do it with JUST THE RULES and without GM fiat, since the other methods I mentioned CAN accomplish the same thing without requiring any arbitrary GM decrees?

[Lord Liaden]

One thing that Duplication accomplishes which Shape Shift would not, is that it allows for Mechanon's head to have a significantly different (in this case, weaker) set of Characteristics and Powers than the whole body/head combination does, without putting "Not When Shapeshifted" Limitations on most of those abilities. This way is definitely cleaner and simpler.

 

Summoning a new body is no more rules-conforming than this version of Duplication, since there really isn't a provision for the Summoned whatever becoming an extension of the Summoner, and the Summoner effectively ceasing to exist at that point. You'd still have to fudge things to make it work as described.

[Guest innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

One thing that Duplication accomplishes which Shape Shift would not, is that it allows for Mechanon's head to have a significantly different (in this case, weaker) set of Characteristics and Powers than the whole body/head combination does, without putting "Not When Shapeshifted" Limitations on most of those abilities. This way is definitely cleaner and simpler.

 

Summoning a new body is no more rules-conforming than this version of Duplication, since there really isn't a provision for the Summoned whatever becoming an extension of the Summoner, and the Summoner effectively ceasing to exist at that point. You'd still have to fudge things to make it work as described.

 

Well, there IS a new Advantage for Summon that allows you to Summon a specific individual (in this case, an identical Mechanon with all the same memories and personality), and the Summoned being would still be bound to answer the Summoning even if the Summoner is destroyed. It doesn't HAVE to be an "extension" of the original; Mechanon WAS destroyed, and now the automated factory builds a new robot with the same appearance and powers of Mechanon and then downloads Mechanon's programming and recorded memories into it. And since you could make the Trigger for the Summon be "the deactivation of the original", you don't have to ever worry about their being two Mechanons around at the same time.

 

You might still consider it a BIT of a fudge; although I'd argue it's far less of a fudge than saying, "Suddenly, Mechanon's head spontenously earns 481 Experience Points and is able to buy his body back." And I STILL haven't heard the argument demonstrating that that ISN'T exactly what he'd have to do to get his body back. You can argue that Duplication is "cleaner and simpler"; but you CAN'T argue that it WORKS, because Mechanon's head can't ever get back the powers of the original!

[JmOz]

of all the ideas I have heard I like the idea of a Multiform the best, extra time (only to trasform) with the head being the base form

[Killer Shrike]

Ours is the age which is proud of machines that think and suspicious of men who try to.

Howard Mumford Jones

 

 

 

A complex system that works is invariably found to have evolved from a simple system that worked.

John Gall

 

 

 

 

[Killer Shrike]

Hey, the idea of Summoning a new Mechanon gave me this idea on how to ultimately defeat Mechanon!

 

Tweak the lab program to create multiples (via an Aid, can add Adders of course), so that instead of 1 Mechanon we have 256 Mechanons! Then, with the judicious application of Bradley's Bromide, Mechanon would never accomplish anything worthwhile ever again!

 

 

"If computers get too powerful, we can organize them into a committee--that will do them in."

-- Bradley's Bromide

[Arkham]

Or, you could just give Mechanon a base

with a Triggered Resurrection with extra time

only triggers upon the arrival of his Duplicate

head.

 

The actual character writeup can stay the same,

just with a ( several ) base(s).

[Guest innominatus]

I'd recommend Shapeshift and the "Not Usable in Head Form" Limitation over Multiform, if only because Multiform is meant for characters who change powers AND personality when they transform. For example, a werewolf whose mind becomes more bestial to match his body during a full moon. Mechanon keeps his personality and consciousness; he's just a lot smaller and doesn't have access to his weaponry.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by innominatus

Multiform is meant for characters who change powers AND personality when they transform.

Thats not necessarily true at all. Multiform is a mechanic whereby a character may have multiple physically different forms, but only 1 exists at a time. Its just a game mechanic and thats all. If you want to have distinctly different personalities in your different forms, you can do that too, but you dont have to; its a character concept decision.

[SirViss]

I don't have the right book to know the intricacies of Mechanon's Duplication power, but this is what I might do. Use the duplcation as is and give the body the power Teleport with extra-time limitation, which triggers when Duplication is activated. The SFX is that the body "explodes" and is destroyed. How does the he get another body? He has to wait for the extra time on the teleport to lapse to recombine. The SFX of the reconstituted body would be it being rebuilt.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Of course, Mechanon should have some bases so that his body could teleport to somewhere safe.

[tesuji]

Re: Re: Mechanon's Self Destruct

 

Originally posted by innominatus

The ability to return from the dead the way Mechanon is scripted as being able to do is a valuable and useful one, and should be costly.

 

Actually, this is the premise where you and i for instance really part the ways.

 

For a villain, much less a master villain, in a comic to "go out with a bang" and to "somehow appear again in a later issue" is not something potent and costly. It is a story element, a plot device, not a mechanical application that mus be detailed out to the half character point.

 

What does the self-destruction device do? Does it affect the outcome of the fight in any "did we win or lose" way? Nope, all it does is add a little dramatic kick to the victory.

 

What does him returning later do? Does it affect how the fight goes for it to be mechanon as opposed to some new threat? yes... by making it more dramatic and personaly,,, but not in any sort of "points balance" way.

 

Neither of these need to be hashed down to more than, frankly, Steve's own favorite... "dramatic sense"...

 

Now, as a power for a HERO, thats a whole different story, but thats not what we are discussing here. Then again, if the player wanted the hero to have mechanon's "recurring villain" power, understanding that it meant coming back at some future date, not a nigh on immediate ressurection... he would probably still not be inclined to abuse it, since "no character " sux during those "ressurection in progress" periods.

 

CSCV... not just for targetting.

[Old Man]

Originally posted by innominatus

The fact that all those ways of handling Mechanon's consciousness are possible to build with the rules, yet the designers DIDN'T build them that way, indicates that Mechanon is something OTHER than those ideas -- namely, an individual entity contained within a specific physical body.

 

Maybe because somebody decided that that was the way they wanted to do it. That my friend is the glory of Hero. Just because somebody did something a certain way doesn't mean you have to do it the same way in your game

[Guest innominatus]

I have no problem with relegating Mechanon's escapes or rebuilds to the realm of plot device -- probably the No. 1 rule in my campaign is "If it would look good on film (or if it's something you'd see in a comic book), you can do it, or at least try it." MY point during this whole discussion is: if you're going to call it a plot device, then DON'T PUT IT ON THE CHARACTER SHEET -- you're the GM; just wave your hands at it and say it happens. And if you ARE going to put it on the character sheet, then for damn sure MAKE SURE IT FOLLOWS THE RULES!

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by innominatus

You might still consider it a BIT of a fudge; although I'd argue it's far less of a fudge than saying, "Suddenly, Mechanon's head spontenously earns 481 Experience Points and is able to buy his body back." And I STILL haven't heard the argument demonstrating that that ISN'T exactly what he'd have to do to get his body back. You can argue that Duplication is "cleaner and simpler"; but you CAN'T argue that it WORKS, because Mechanon's head can't ever get back the powers of the original!

 

My response to this particular point is covered in my first post on the thread, before the one that you quoted from.

[Guest innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Well, when I first saw this, it struck me as a little odd too. Then I remembered the example "Astral Form" Power from the sidebar on FREd p. 101, which builds the Astral Form as a Desolid Duplicate of the character with the Limitation, "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless While Duplicate Exists" (-1). Mechanically, Mechanon detaching his head while leaving his inert body behind is almost identical to this.

 

Now strictly speaking, you're right in that if the body that has the Duplication Power is destroyed, the head should not be able to recombine. Since you want to set dramatic license aside and find a rules rationale for this , I might suggest that since the bodies have that Power, and since Mechanon is supposed to keep spare backup bodies in hidden locations, each spare body would potentially be the base form for that single Duplicated head, with only one body active at a time, so it would still work out.

 

Note that this version of Mechanon does not have any points listed for bases (the 4E incarnation did), but since he is supposed to have them, I personally would account for these backup bodies as Followers drawn from those additional points, perhaps costed to the head Duplicate directly.

 

All that being said, my own preference would have been to either use a Multiform for the head, perhaps with a "Leaves Body Behind" Disadvantage, or make the head the base form and the body the Duplicate. The latter option would be much more expensive since the same Limitations wouldn't apply, and not follow the Astral Form precedent as closely. All in all, though, the way Steve did it doesn't really offend my rules sensibilities, and with the addition of the Followers I'd be satisfied with it. Of course, YMMV.

 

 

There's a key difference between the Duplication approach to Astral Form and what Mechanon is doing: the original body is instantly incinerated, and thus the head can never return to it (and reclaim the powers therein) the way an Astral Form could. With Astral Form, it at least makes SOME sense because the character now has two "bodies" that can be hurt -- his physical one and his astral one. The self destruct renders Mechanon's old humanoid body instantly irrelevant; he's not existing in two places at once, and nothing you can do to the self-destructed body can affect the surviving head, so again I ask: WHY DUPLICATION?

 

As far as your solution for the replacement bodies go...no offense, but it my mind that's an even worse idea than the cheapo Duplicate that magically gets the extra 480 pts. back. The bodies aren't Followers -- they take no actions, and Mechanon has no ability to take control of them and make them merge with the head. They're inanimate objects -- empty vessels waiting for Mechanon's head to attach to them to give them some semblance of life. Now if you wanted to pay for the extra bodies as additional, full-cost Duplicates, and have THEM have the Astral Form's "Helpless and Incapacitated" Limitation (someone could break into Mechanon's lair and trash the extra bodies), THEN you might be on to something...

 

The Multiform would also be a way to go, but since the abandoned body immediately self-destructs and its doing so doesn't affect the head in any way, I'd invoke the "A Limitation that doesn't limit the power isn't worth anything" clause and say the headless body it's just a special effect for Multiform, not an additional Limitation. Better to re-word the Limitation "Cannot Change Back to Humanoid form except at base".

[Lord Liaden]

Ahh... innominatus, I believe you're operating under a false impression. Mechanon's body is not automatically destroyed when his head is detached. The terms of the Trigger for the self-destruct are, "encrypted radio signal from detached head or base." There's nothing preventing Mechanon from sending his head to scout around in smaller, less obtrusive form, pass through openings too small for the full body, conceal itself to spy on someone, etc. and then reclaim his body at a later time. He can have the full benefits of his Duplicate without losing his main body, should he wish.

 

Your point about Followers not being appropriate for the reserve bodies is well taken, though. OTOH, that same argument works against your contention that Mechanon should pay for those reserves as Duplicates. By definition of his Duplication, Mechanon can have only one head-body combo functioning at a time; the other bodies are inert until the head can reach and connect with them. So, why should he pay for them? At most they're a plot device to allow Mechanon to escape complete destruction, IMHO something that's well within the realm of story-advancing gimmicks that master villains always seem to have access to. That would be as much "GM hand-waving" as the situation would require.

 

If you allow that much, the rest of the Power construct falls into place quite well. Each body would have bought enough Duplication to allow for Mechanon's unique head to combine with it, and the Limitation on the Duplication, "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless while Duplicate Exists," would indeed leave those bodies vulnerable to being trashed by someone breaking into Mechanon's base, just as you suggest.

 

You know, the more I consider it, the more I come to believe that this was a pretty good way to write up the effect!

[JmOz]

What about this:

 

The head is the main character

 

The body is a Multiform bought with OIF, then if the Foci is destroyed he has to replace it?

[Guest innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Ahh... innominatus, I believe you're operating under a false impression. Mechanon's body is not automatically destroyed when his head is detached. The terms of the Trigger for the self-destruct are, "encrypted radio signal from detached head or base." There's nothing preventing Mechanon from sending his head to scout around in smaller, less obtrusive form, pass through openings too small for the full body, conceal itself to spy on someone, etc. and then reclaim his body at a later time. He can have the full benefits of his Duplicate without losing his main body, should he wish.

 

........

 

If you allow that much, the rest of the Power construct falls into place quite well. Each body would have bought enough Duplication to allow for Mechanon's unique head to combine with it, and the Limitation on the Duplication, "Original Character is Incapacitated and Helpless while Duplicate Exists," would indeed leave those bodies vulnerable to being trashed by someone breaking into Mechanon's base, just as you suggest.

 

You know, the more I consider it, the more I come to believe that this was a pretty good way to write up the effect!

 

1.) Actually, I HAD considered the possibility that Mechanon might voluntarily separate his head for reasons other than escape. However, I have trouble imagining that he would voluntarily leave himself vulnerable that way, especially since, if he wanted to speak around or spy on people, he can now simply Summon some specialized robots and gather information through them via Mind Link. And even if you DID decide that such an action would be "in character" for Mechanon, then you'd simply re-word the -1/4 Limitation to the Shape Shift or Multiform to "Can Only change back to 'full humanoid' form when a functioning body is available" -- if he hid his body in the broom closet, he just goes and plugs back in; otherwise, the head flies back to base and has a new one built.

 

2.) There's no provision in the rules for allowing one character with Duplication to "adopt" a second character's duplicates and allow the second character's duplicates to merge with the first character, regardless of how identical the second character may be to the first (interesting though the possibility might be!) And besides that, it was Mr. Long's assertion that his build of the power using Duplication was legal and did not require any GM fiat or other bending of the rules to accomplish. And to date NO ONE has offered an explanation (nay, even TRIED to defend the claim) how Mechanon could get his body (and all the powers and abilities therein) back when the original is destroyed and the head never paid the points to have available all those attack Multipowers and such.

 

And in response to your letter, Tesuji, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I have NO problem with resorting to pure plot device to make Mechanon's escape happen. But then don't put the power on the character sheet and insist it's a valid and legal way to simulate the effect when the rules clearly state the power doesn't work the way you're convinced it OUGHT to...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Point #2

 

Originally posted by innominatus

2.) There's no provision in the rules for allowing one character with Duplication to "adopt" a second character's duplicates and allow the second character's duplicates to merge with the first character, regardless of how identical the second character may be to the first (interesting though the possibility might be!) And besides that, it was Mr. Long's assertion that his build of the power using Duplication was legal and did not require any GM fiat or other bending of the rules to accomplish. And to date NO ONE has offered an explanation (nay, even TRIED to defend the claim) how Mechanon could get his body (and all the powers and abilities therein) back when the original is destroyed and the head never paid the points to have available all those attack Multipowers and such.

 

With all due respect, I do defend the claim, and I did offer an explanation. Mechanon doesn't lose his original body, because the special effect of the original body is that it has backups with the same capacity to accept his head as their Duplicate. I don't see that as one character "adopting" the Duplicate of another. Each body identical, only one of them ever functioning at one time = one character with one Duplicate. The rest is just SFX IMHO.

 

I'm not saying that other ways to build this effect couldn't work, and might even work "better" depending on what you want, but this discussion has convinced me that the way it's done in Mechanon's writeup is legal, appropriate and mechanically sound. You can of course disagree with my interpretation, innominatus, but I can't agree with your assertion that this method is wrong according to the rules.