Re: Mechanon's Self Destruct

[Vanguard]

Ok .. the only thing I'm going to say here is this (and I really probably should just keep my trap shut) . . .

 

Innominatus, what is it EXACTLY that you want? If it's some kind of rules clarification or something then why don't you ask it?

 

Basically, as I see it, Mechanon (and all the master villians) where given a "character sheet" as sort of a starting point. Something for the individual GM's to take a look at and go ... "Oh" and then work from there. From one of your last posts, it almost sounds like you would've been more happy if Steve would've just posted a list of Master Villians and said "Here you go".

 

If the write up for Mechanon strikes a nerve or seems wrong to you, change it to something you like and can live with. But like several people have said, Mechanon is a master villian and by definition, doesn't need points or .. like ALL the NPC's in a game world .. they have as many points as they need to do what they need to do.

 

Like I said, I *think* the reason we have write ups for bad guys like Mechanon and Dr. D are a starting point or a "guideline". Just a place to start and to add things here and there or tweak as needed.

 

I hope this doesn't sound like a personal attack, it's not ment as one ..

 

Anyway .. just my 2 cents.

[Guest innominatus]

What do *I* want? Well, to paraphrase Sam Jackson in "Pulp Fiction", "This was a bad power writeup, and I want Steve Long to forking ACKNOWLEDGE IT!!!"

 

But seriously, folks...

 

If you look wa-a-a-ay back to the beginning of the post in the "Rules Questions" forum, I did simply start looking for a rules clarificiation. In essence I said, "In the book you wrote up Mechanon's power *this* way. I understand the result you want to achieve, but the rules would seem to disallow it because of thus-and-so. Is there something I'm missing, or could the effect be better simulated *this* way?" Mr. Long's response, when you boiled it down, amounted to, "Yeah-huh, it DOES SO work!" [Then he fails to explain away the discrepenancy, or how the rules don't REALLY contradict what he's doing.) And finally, he finishes off with (essentially), "My idea is just as good as yours. I don't have to justify myself to you. I'm taking my toys and going home."

 

This will be the third time I've said it now, but I understand that master villains can be built with however many points you need to make them do what you want. I also understand that there are SOME things that can't adequately be simulated strictly by the rules and that "GM's Prerogative" has to be invoked. But you can't slap a poorly thought-out game mechanic on the character sheet that doesn't work when you apply the actual rules to it, and then claim the moral high ground by saying you built the power the "legal" and "official" way, even though it would still take a GM decree to FORCE the power to work the way you intend it to.

 

Vanguard, I agree with you completely that "canned" characters are a starting point, not a finishing point. In 17 years of playing Champions I have YET to use a published villain right "out of the box", simply because they have some sort of rules gaffe like this, or they wouldn't fit in well in my campaign style, or whatever. I mainly look to them for inspiration, to find some seed of an idea or some creative use of the game mechanics I haven't thought of before. But if I *already* have a better grasp of the rules than the guys in charge at HERO, and if THIS was the best they could come up with for interpreting a neat power like this, what do I need them for? And why should I send any of my hard-earned dollars their way?

 

But getting back to your original question, of what I want? I'd be happy for an explanation, from ANYONE, about how the original write-up for the power makes sense and is legal by a reasonable interpretation of the rules (as Mr. Long insists it is). So far, nobody in the ENTIRE gaming community who reads and posts here has either been willing or able to step up to the plate and defend that position. Either that, or have the folks at Hero acknowledge that maybe they DIDN'T consider all the ramifications of building the power this particular way, and that they'll look into fixing it (either by turning the ability back into a strict plot device or rebuilding the power in a way that actually works according to the rules) for the next printing or big revision or for similar future characters or whatever. With that, I would be satisfied.

[Monolith]

In Editions 1 through 4 Mechanon's "Return to Life" was a plot device. In 5th Edition Mechanon's head can escape allowing its "Return to Life" to have more feasibility as a plot device. Now instead of Mechanon shooting radio brainwaves to a new body it puts its old head on a new body. Either way it is still nothing more than a plot device, only in 5th Edition it has some point cost associated with it.

 

I really never understood certain people's needs to keep pounding a point into the ground when it ultimately always comes down to each GM making their own interpretations and justifications of the rules to make them fit within their own campaign worlds. I am always amazed that a game which has 10 or more different ways to do everything constantly gets so many gamers saying "I'm right, you're wrong" all the time.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by innominatus

I'd be happy for an explanation, from ANYONE, about how the original write-up for the power makes sense and is legal by a reasonable interpretation of the rules (as Mr. Long insists it is). So far, nobody in the ENTIRE gaming community who reads and posts here has either been willing or able to step up to the plate and defend that position.

 

Do I have the Disadvantage, "Only Invisible to innominatus"? Once again, look above Vanguard's post. I defend Steve's position, I do say in so many words that it makes sense and is a legal and reasonable interpretation of the rules, and I explain why in that post and the one I made before it. I respect your right to disagree with me, but please stop categorizing Steve's position as completely undefended.

[Guest innominatus]

The "need" stems from the fact that we're all playing the same game here. There's a certain groundwork of assumptions that everyone here has to be familiar with and more-or-less agree upon (i.e.; The Rules). If we all remained isolated within our own gaming groups, then it wouldn't matter so much if some folks wanted to diverge from the rules in varying degrees. But there is intermingling between groups -- players drop out of groups and join new ones, we congregate for conventions, and so on. And if we're not all operating under the same set of assumptions, then the system breaks down and we're back to playing "Cowboys and Indians" like when we were kids ("BANG! BANG! I got you, you're dead!" "Nuh-uh, I got YOU, you're dead!" "Nuh-uh!" "Yeah-huh!" And so on...)

 

Mr. Long's writeup of Mechanon's power would appear to represent a radical departure from how Duplication works according to the rules. Now if he was allowing Mechanon to escape strictly by means of a plot device, then he's free to do as he wills -- it's his campaign, and there's no rules governing the use and abuse of plot devices. But he chose NOT to go the route of GM fiat; he used the RULES to achieve the effect. And the rules contradict what he described, and so far nobody has been able to explain how it doesn't. Which means either Mr. Long was WRONG for doing what he did and the character needs to be amended; or the rules need to be amended and clarified to show how he was RIGHT all along -- because so far the consensus has been that the power isn't legal, which means that (if Mr. Long is right) that the majority of us here are misunderstanding the rules and playing incorrectly.

[Guest innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Do I have the Disadvantage, "Only Invisible to innominatus"? Once again, look above Vanguard's post. I defend Steve's position, I do say in so many words that it makes sense and is a legal and reasonable interpretation of the rules, and I explain why in that post and the one I made before it. I respect your right to disagree with me, but please stop categorizing Steve's position as completely undefended.

 

The problem is, there's no provision in the rules for Duplication allowing more than one "original" (i.e.; a form that Duplicates can merge back into). It clearly states in the FAQ that, once the original has been killed off, any duplicates that have been formed would be unable to merge back with one another and go back to being a single entity without the original. So you're back to combining a game mechanic with a plot device in order to make the effect work. Plus, if you're assuming that the head detaching is Mechanon spawning a lesser Duplicate, then that means the body that just self-destructed was the original (because ONLY the original can spawn duplicates), so you're back to the same problem of Mechanon having lost the 480+ points he spent on his attack Multipowers and such in his original form.

[tesuji]

Just FYI... the below is not a NEED i have ever seen in play in a game of HERo. HERo us at its core utterly dependent on the GM to make the rules work FOR HIM. HERO is not really a game but rather a game design system. It is intrinsically the job of the GM to pick and choose from among the myriad implementations of the rules, the inumerable "nuances" (a term utterly weak when considering the impact of these "nuances") involved with the campaign itself.

 

How tight a grouping is required for ECs? IS magical fire appropriate or is "helpful witcheries"?

 

How broad a VPP should be allowed?

 

Are "normals" allowed to have stats above 30? Above 20? Above 40?

 

How are foci broken? How long does it take to replace them?

 

How long does it take to replace charges? is "i run by the base for more ammo" valid?

 

How long ar the combats?

 

When can i use naked advantages?

 

Do i really have to buy "fighting arrays" using the officially preferred method which charges more for them than just buying the dex straight up would?

 

These all come into play well before we start talking about campaign limits and ocvs and speed and so on.

 

The rules we play by are the rules set by the Gm for his game. The rules rely so heavily on the GM to "enforce" the balance aspects that they are practically meaningless without the perspective of "the GM".

 

Whether a new player comes into my group with HERo experience or not, the first lesson to be learned is" you are playing my hero, not Steve Long's. not monolith's, not your last GM."

 

If thats not acceptable to them, thats cool. I will show them out and suggest other GMs in the area they can try and find.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by innominatus

The "need" stems from the fact that we're all playing the same game here. There's a certain groundwork of assumptions that everyone here has to be familiar with and more-or-less agree upon (i.e.; The Rules). If we all remained isolated within our own gaming groups, then it wouldn't matter so much if some folks wanted to diverge from the rules in varying degrees. But there is intermingling between groups -- players drop out of groups and join new ones, we congregate for conventions, and so on. And if we're not all operating under the same set of assumptions, then the system breaks down and we're back to playing "Cowboys and Indians" like when we were kids ("BANG! BANG! I got you, you're dead!" "Nuh-uh, I got YOU, you're dead!" "Nuh-uh!" "Yeah-huh!" And so on...)

[Monolith]

Originally posted by innominatus

The "need" stems from the fact that we're all playing the same game here. There's a certain groundwork of assumptions that everyone here has to be familiar with and more-or-less agree upon (i.e.; The Rules).

As Tesuji has already stated, there are no real rules for the HERO System. There are only rules which each GM wishes to use and change for his own game. We all play HERO, but we all play it slightly different because we all have different needs from the game system. That makes each game unique. HERO is not d20, and we do not all follow the same general guidelines.

 

I would also like to point out that you are somehow combining two different abilities to reach your wrong conclusion. Mechanon's ability to detach his head is just that, as Lord Liaden pointed out many posts back. Mechanon can use the head for a number of different effects. It is not just a failsafe or reason to blow up the body. Mechanon has Regeneration, and the head could detach for the simple effect of luring the heroes away from the body while it has time to mend.

 

Also, Mechanon's write-up does not say you must have the head for a new Mechanon to be born. The writeup just says that the head can escape if it so chooses. The write-up also says if the head cannot escape Mechanon can still transmit his brainwaves and data to a new Mechanon waiting somewhere to be "born."

 

Detachable head makes for "spy" Mechanon and makes for an interesting visual, but it is not linked to Mechanon's ability to be reborn. That is still the same plot device which it has always been. So Mechanon's head flies to a closest base, transmits all its data to a new Mechanon and then dies. It is no different than it was in 1st through 4th Edition. You are the only one who seems to be confusing this.

[misterdeath]

Originally posted by innominatus

so you're back to the same problem of Mechanon having lost the 480+ points he spent on his attack Multipowers and such in his original form.

 

Is that's what's bothering you? So, Mechanon's lost a boatload of points and has to "earn" them back? Big deal.

 

That's what makes him take time to return. He's got to earn back 480 points of stuff.

 

If you were to use a different type of Duplication (total, only when original killed, yadda yadda), then you have to remember to take into consideration that it takes Mechanon time to reform.

 

That amount of time is dependant on GM/Plot considerations, in the published case, that's how long it takes Mechanon to earn those EPs.

 

___

 

And, perhaps it's a 4th edition bias, but I never got the impression that the body was the important part.

 

Just like in 4th edition, the most expensive form pays for the Duplicate/Multiform. IIRC, that's one of the things people howled about when 5th came out--you could have 350 point multiform guy spend pretty much all of that on his "duplicate".

 

So, Rather than listening to people complain, Steve put the head as a duplicate of the body, and not the other way around.

 

You could do it the other way. Probably makes more sense. But, from a Game Balance standpoint, well, it's point whoring of a high order.

 

D

[Killer Shrike]

innominatus: You can do another 5 pages of 'Im right, and anyone who doesnt agree with me is wrong' but in the end its not going to get any of us anywhere productive.     I have an idea: instead of back and forthing over it, write up your version of Mechanon (Mechanon-Innominatus) and post it here with your 'more correct' Self Destruct mechanism.       Let it stand or fall on its own merits. Those who prefer it can then adopt it, those who dont can safely ignore it.       It makes for less argument, and is productive rather than antagonistic.   YMMV

[Guest innominatus]

I've NEVER said that I'm right to the exclusion of everybody else's ideas. I've agreed that the Multiform option was just as good as my own Shape Shift suggestion; and though I never mentioned it in the forum, I also think the "Triggered Resurrection" and "Teleport" options other people have suggested have potential as well. What I *DID* say is "The rules don't seem to support the 'Single Lesser Duplicate' method because there's no provision for Mechanon getting his body (and powers) back once he gets back to base; what am I missing from this construction method that would allow it to BE right?" The most recent remark of Mechanon having to wait a while to gain back the points "off-camera" is possible, but just doesn't pass the "smell test" in my book -- my head is filled visions of Mechanon-Head flying around mugging little old ladies 'til he can save up the cash and accumulate the experience to afford a new body. And Monolith: we already touched upon the notion of Mechanon using the Duplication for things other than escape some time ago -- can we agree we've already established we're discussing its original, intended use (as described in the "Powers/Tactics" section of Mechanon's writeup) of avoiding Mechanon's final demise?

 

That having been said, I accept your challenge to "build a better Mechanon", Killer Shrike. Or at least, to build a better escape mechanism. I'll say up front that it'll be a day or two before I can devote a large enough block of time to hash it all out (the wife and baby get first dibs on my free time); but I'll present my results, in as many different ways as I can come up with to simulate the effect, so that everyone can discuss the relative merits and shortcomings.

[Lord Liaden]

I fear we may be approaching the interpretative impasse beyond which reasoned discourse may not tread. Nonetheless, I think I can add a bit more to the discussion:

 

Originally posted by innominatus

The problem is, there's no provision in the rules for Duplication allowing more than one "original" (i.e.; a form that Duplicates can merge back into). It clearly states in the FAQ that, once the original has been killed off, any duplicates that have been formed would be unable to merge back with one another and go back to being a single entity without the original. So you're back to combining a game mechanic with a plot device in order to make the effect work. Plus, if you're assuming that the head detaching is Mechanon spawning a lesser Duplicate, then that means the body that just self-destructed was the original (because ONLY the original can spawn duplicates), so you're back to the same problem of Mechanon having lost the 480+ points he spent on his attack Multipowers and such in his original form.

 

Here's the statement from the FAQ:

 

Q. What happens if a character is Duplicated, and then original character is killed?

 

A. That typically depends on the special effects of the Duplication, but as a default rule, this means the duplicates lose the ability to combine back together; they just become a group of characters whose "creator" no longer exists.

 

The FAQ "clearly" places the emphasis on the special effects involved, which may trump the default rule. The entry in FREd regarding Duplication and character death does not specifically say that Duplicates are unable to recombine after the Base Form has been killed: "If a Duplicate or the base character is killed, the others cannot revive him by recombining - he stays dead; the character has lost a part of himself." So, it isn't really possible to refute writing up Mechanon's ability as Duplication by citing the letter of the rules - they don't support that position.

 

As I indicated, I'm persuaded that the special effects in this case allow this mechanic. Mechanon's extra bodies have no impact on the game unless and until the head combines with them, which would only happen as a last-ditch survival tactic, so IMO they don't need to be payed for as Duplicates or anything else. (Ironically it was innominatus' point refuting buying extra bodies as Followers which convinced me of that.) All of them are the same, and they have all payed the points for the same Duplicate, but because only one Duplicate head exists only one such body can be active at a time. Effectively, there is only one Mechanon that the players have to face, having one body which is the Base Form and one Duplicate. The self-destruct device is more of an "eliminate the evidence" device, a way to charge Mechanon an appropriate amount for the useful ability to destroy discarded bodies that the heroes could examine to learn Mechanon's secrets.

 

As for the benefits of doing it this way rather than one of the other possibilities: as I said before, I personally would favor Multiform with a "Leaves Body Behind" Limitation, but this is now more of an esthetic preference. Either that or Duplication allows for the detachable head and inert body, with the head's stats being different from the body's, without the complication of adding a "Not When Shapeshifted" Limitation to many Characteristics and Powers. It's more cost-effective for the more expensive body to be the Base Form for the Duplicate head rather than the other way around, and IMO the SFX are good enough that the head doesn't need to be the base form to allow it to combine with a new body.

 

Of course YMMV, and I completely respect anyone's right to do so in a reasoned manner. Now, having presented my case as logically and eloquently as I can, I shall gracefully quite the field.

[Guest innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

I fear we may be approaching the interpretative impasse beyond which reasoned discourse may not tread. Nonetheless, I think I can add a bit more to the discussion:

 

As I indicated, I'm persuaded that the special effects in this case allow this mechanic. Mechanon's extra bodies have no impact on the game unless and until the head combines with them, which would only happen as a last-ditch survival tactic, so IMO they don't need to be payed for as Duplicates or anything else. (Ironically it was innominatus' point refuting buying extra bodies as Followers which convinced me of that.) All of them are the same, and they have all payed the points for the same Duplicate, but because only one Duplicate head exists only one such body can be active at a time. Effectively, there is only one Mechanon that the players have to face, having one body which is the Base Form and one Duplicate. The self-destruct device is more of an "eliminate the evidence" device, a way to charge Mechanon an appropriate amount for the useful ability to destroy discarded bodies that the heroes could examine to learn Mechanon's secrets.

 

As for the benefits of doing it this way rather than one of the other possibilities: as I said before, I personally would favor Multiform with a "Leaves Body Behind" Limitation, but this is now more of an esthetic preference. Either that or Duplication allows for the detachable head and inert body, with the head's stats being different from the body's, without the complication of adding a "Not When Shapeshifted" Limitation to many Characteristics and Powers. It's more cost-effective for the more expensive body to be the Base Form for the Duplicate head rather than the other way around, and IMO the SFX are good enough that the head doesn't need to be the base form to allow it to combine with a new body.

 

Of course YMMV, and I completely respect anyone's right to do so in a reasoned manner. Now, having presented my case as logically and eloquently as I can, I shall gracefully quite the field.

 

Grrr...I was hoping my next post here would be my own take on Mechanon's escape power, but I really feel this needs to be responded to...

 

Let's assume that the GM agrees the special effect of Mechanon's Duplication is such that he allows the remaining duplicates to recombine (and why wouldn't he, since the GM is you?) The fact remains that, AS THE CHARACTER IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK, once Mechanon separates his head and triggers the Self Destruct, Mechanon ONLY HAS ONE DUPLICATE LEFT, and it's only the lesser-powered head version. I agree completely that your solution would work fine if Mechanon had paid for other full-power duplicates; but HE DIDN'T, and Long's claim was that the Mechanon's little stunt would work EXACTLY AS WRITTEN AND WITHOUT ANY ASSUMPTIONS OR "GM FIATS"! Now you can argue the clause in the writeup that states that "as a master villain, Mechanon should have whatever Bases, Followers, and Vehicles he needs". (Although frankly, that's ANOTHER thing that bugs me about this writeup; other published villains have listed on their sheets a 'pool' of points ear-marked for Bases and such, and not doing so for Mechanon seems extremely incongruous.) However:

 

1.) There's no mention of having access to as many extra points as needed to restore powers lost when the original Mechanon self-destructs, or as many extra Duplicates as he might require (if they went to the trouble of recording ONE down in the writeup, how much more effort would it be to add a couple of zeroes after it?); and

 

2.) As anyone new to the HERO system who wanted to go shopping for flashlights can tell you, IF YOU DON'T PAY CHARACTER POINTS FOR IT, YOU DON'T GET IT!!!

 

(Takes a deep breath)....OK....now I'm going to try to stay away from this thread entirely 'til I have my version of Mechanon finished....

[Old Man]

Originally posted by innominatus

The problem is, there's no provision in the rules for Duplication allowing more than one "original" (i.e.; a form that Duplicates can merge back into). It clearly states in the FAQ that, once the original has been killed off, any duplicates that have been formed would be unable to merge back with one another and go back to being a single entity without the original. So you're back to combining a game mechanic with a plot device in order to make the effect work. Plus, if you're assuming that the head detaching is Mechanon spawning a lesser Duplicate, then that means the body that just self-destructed was the original (because ONLY the original can spawn duplicates), so you're back to the same problem of Mechanon having lost the 480+ points he spent on his attack Multipowers and such in his original form.

 

You are completely missing the point. The Mechanon that heroes have been blasting )or getting blasted by as the case may be) is NOT the original. The original is in a base someplace spawning new Mechanon bodies. Why risk himself when he can send out Duplicates?

[Old Man]

Originally posted by innominatus

 

(Takes a deep breath)....OK....now I'm going to try to stay away from this thread entirely 'til I have my version of Mechanon finished....

 

Which is what you had the option of doing from the first place. Like I said, if you don't like it, don't use it. Being a player in your campaign must be hard when no changes can ever be made to the charaqcters over time.

 

I think other folks are avoiding this thread because you come off sounding like a jerk.

[caris]

Originally posted by innominatus

and Long's claim was that the Mechanon's little stunt would work EXACTLY AS WRITTEN AND WITHOUT ANY ASSUMPTIONS OR "GM FIATS"!

 

I'm sorry, but I don't quite see that as what Steve said. The relevant comments by Steve seems to be:

 

Originally posted by Steve Long

I disagree entirely that the method I chose for building Mechanon is poorer, or requires more GM fiat, than the method you suggest. I further disagree that the game mechanic doesn't work for the effect I want. If you're so deeply troubled by it, just change his Duplication to provide X Duplicates of his entire body, assume any Mechanon the PCs meet is one of the Dupes, and have the head fly back to join the original. And that's about all I intend to say on the matter.

 

Steve doesn't state that the power as not requiring any GM fiat. He simply states that your method would take as much GM fiat in his oppinion. Steve also says that the mechanic does match the effect that he is attempting to acomplish. It is your assumption that Steve intended the head defined as a duplicate was intended to model Mechanon's ability to come back again and again, that the head was built and intended to be an "escape clause". While that method is listed as one of the options that Mechanon would use to escape. It is clearly not the only one. The power itself is not labled as "Escape Clause", but as "Detachable Head". Perhaps Steve had intended that to be just another interesting ability of Mechanon, based on something that he had seen a similar character do in a comic book, and not as the point justification for Mechanon's reappearance. Perhaps, he had intended the head thing when used in the way you are describing to be nothing more than just a special effect of the plot device.

[Killer Shrike]

Mechanon = Ultron in my mind. How many Adamantium bodies did Ultron manage to make? You know, that 'rare' metal that no one knows how to make?

 

Hmm....Writer Fiat? Plot Device?

 

Thats Mechanons deal. He cant die unless the GM doesnt want him around anymore, which is consistent with the genre.

 

Pointed, not pointed, who cares?

 

Its story driven, not point driven.....

[tesuji]

Originally posted by innominatus

 

2.) As anyone new to the HERO system who wanted to go shopping for flashlights can tell you, IF YOU DON'T PAY CHARACTER POINTS FOR IT, YOU DON'T GET IT!!!

 

i'm sorry, but i really have to ask, cause this sounds as throwback hero as if someone were railing on the nightly news about how everyone knows leeches help draw the evil spirits from the blood of sick people.

 

Somewhere between 3rd-4th-5th i thought HERo did get away from the "quest for a flashlight" stages where your wristwacth had to be purchased and your condoms had to be paid for with cp... "do i buy the IIF/F Immunity to sexually transmitted diseases 1 charge lasting 1 hour or do i add in the ribbed for your pleasure model with +1 to seduction roll or do i go for another +1 ocv with my spear?" and most GMs get beyond the point of "no you cannot go to KMART until you have enough experience saved up to buy the flashlight. Do you want to spend Xp on the condoms or not?"

 

shudder!

 

next thing you know phlogiston will be hailed as the next great power source.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by tesuji

next thing you know phlogiston will be hailed as the next great power source.

 

I knew there was something I forgot to add to the "Miracle Materials" thread!

[Guest innominatus]

I believe it was Killer Shrike who suggested that, if I thought I knew a better way to create Mechanon's "escape clause" powers, I should step up to the plate and present it to the forum for discussion. Here's my initial workup for the character; I've tried to design Mechanon so he could do what is described in his writeup, while requiring as few "fudges", "GM's discretions" or other bendings of the rules. I don't know if everything I have will fit in a single posting; if not, I'll include a second post immediately after this where I'll point out the major departures from the published version, and why I did it that way:

 

MECHANON - Base Form (as Disembodied Head)

 

0 STR -10

24 DEX 42

40 CON 60

5 BODY -10

30 INT 20

15 EGO 10

20 PRE 10

6 COM -2

30 PD 30

30 ED 22

7 SPD 36

8 REC 0

90 END 5

45 STUN 20

 

Total: 233

 

15 Hardened for PD & ED

37 30 PD 30 ED Hardened Damage Resistance

15 15 pts. Mental Defense

12 12 pts. Power Defense

10 10 pts. Sight Flash Defense

45 Total Life Support

82 20" Flight, x16 NCM, 0 END (+1/2)

44 IR & UV Vision, 360 Degree, x1000 Microscopic, +6 Telescopic

15 Active Sonar

3 Ultrasonic Hearing

12 High Range Radio Perception

15 Radar

12 +4 to all PER Rolls

21 Mind Link w/8 Minds, No LOS Needed, Fully Invisible (+1/2), Only vs. Others w/ Mind Link (-1), Flashed by Radio & Hearing, Not Mental (-1/2)

12 Detect Broadcast Spectrum 15-, 360 Degrees, Transmit

32 4d6 RKA, NND (not vs. ED Force Field, +1), Does BODY (+1), Trigger (Encrypted Signal, +1/4), Self Only (-1), 1 Non-Recoverable Charge (-4)

76 Multiform: 1 Extra Form - 1417 pt. Humanoid, Instant Change, Trigger (coded radio signal, +1/4), 0 DCV Concentration (-1/2), Extra Time (1 Hour, -3), Can only change from head back to humanoid form when an appropriate robot chassis is available (-1/4)

75 Summon Improved Mechanon Head (1259 pt. Character), Trigger (coded radio signal, +1/4), 0 DCV Concentration (-1/2), Extra Time (1 Hour, -3), Side Effects (see below, -1/4)

32 Absolute Range, Absolute Time Sense, Absolute Direction, Lightning Calculator, Universal Translator

30 3 Overall Levels

20 +4 DCV

13 AK: Earth 25-

3 Combat Driving 14-

3 Combat Piloting 14-

3 Computer Programming 15-

3 Cryptography 15-

3 Deduction 15-

3 Demolitions 15-

3 Electronics 15-

3 Inventor 15-

3 Lockpicking 14-

3 Mechanics 15-

3 Security Systems 15-

3 Stealth 14-

3 Systems Operation 15-

3 Scientist

16 Sciences (all 15-): Astronomy, Biology, Chemistry, Genetics, Geology, Nuclear Physics, Physics, Robotics

300 Points for Bases, Followers, Vehicles

 

200+ Disadvantages

20 Hunted by Champions 11-

15 Hunted by UNTIL 8-

20 Phys. Lim.: No Manipulatory Limbs

15 Phys. Lim.: Small Size

25 Psych. Lim.: Must Destroy all Organic Life

20 Psych. Lim.: Overconfident

20 Reputation: Supervillain, 14- (Extreme)

20 X2 STUN from Magnetic, Force, or Gravitic Attacks

864 Experience

 

 

MECHANON - Humanoid Form (provided by Multiform)

 

60 STR 50

24 DEX 42

40 CON 60

20 BODY 20

30 INT 20

15 EGO 10

40 PRE 30

6 COM -2

30 PD 18

30 ED 22

7 SPD 36

20 REC 0

90 END 5

90 STUN 20

 

Total: 331

 

90 90 pt. Multipower

9 1.) 18d6 EB

9 2.) 12d6 EB, 0 END (+1/2)

9 3.) 9d6 EB, Autofire (+1/2), 1/2 END (+1/2)

9 4.) 12d6 EB, Armor Piercing (+1/2)

9 5.) 9d6 EB, Area Effect (5" Radius, +1)

9 6.) 8d6 NND (not vs. Mental Defense or Inorganics, +1), 1/2 END (+1/4)

9 7.) 4d6 RKA, Armor Piercing (+1/2)

9 8.) 4d6 RKA, 0 END (+1/2)

9 9.) 12d6 Mind Control vs. Machines only, 0 END (+1/2)

4 10.) Summon 4-150 pt. Robots, Slasvishly Loyal, OIF Parts (-1/2), Full Phase (-1/2)

60 60 pt. Multipower

6 1.) 4d6 DEX Drain, Ranged (+1/2)

6 2.) 4d6 STR Drain, Ranged (+1/2)

4 3.) 6d6 Entangle, 6 DEF, 8 Shots (-1/2)

4 4.) 6d6 Flash vs. Sight Group, Area (7" Cone, +1), No Range (-1/2)

15 Hardened for PD & ED

37 30 PD 30 ED Hardened Damage Resistance

15 15 pts. Mental Defense

12 12 pts. Power Defense

10 10 pts. Sight Flash Defense

45 Total Life Support

17 3d6 Healing (Regeneration, 3 BODY/Hr.), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Per Hour (-2)

82 20" Flight, x16 NCM, 0 END (+1/2)

12 +6" Running (12" total)

44 IR & UV Vision, 360 Degree, x1000 Microscopic, +6 Telescopic

15 Active Sonar

3 Ultrasonic Hearing

12 High Range Radio Perception

15 Radar

12 +4 to all PER Rolls

21 Mind Link w/8 Minds, No LOS Needed, Fully Invisible (+1/2), Only vs. Others w/ Mind Link (-1), Flashed by Radio & Hearing, Not Mental (-1/2)

12 Detect Broadcast Spectrum 15-, 360 Degrees, Transmit

32 Absolute Range, Absolute Time Sense, Absolute Direction, Lightning Calculator, Universal Translator

30 3 Overall Levels

20 +4 DCV

13 AK: Earth 25-

3 Combat Driving 14-

3 Combat Piloting 14-

3 Computer Programming 15-

3 Cryptography 15-

3 Deduction 15-

3 Demolitions 15-

3 Electronics 15-

3 Inventor 15-

3 Lockpicking 14-

3 Mechanics 15-

3 Security Systems 15-

3 Stealth 14-

3 Systems Operation 15-

3 Scientist

16 Sciences (all 15-): Astronomy, Biology, Chemistry, Genetics, Geology, Nuclear Physics, Physics, Robotics

300 Points for Bases, Followers, Vehicles

 

200+ Disadvantages

20 Hunted by Champions 11-

15 Hunted by UNTIL 8-

25 Psych. Lim.: Must Destroy all Organic Life

20 Psych. Lim.: Overconfident

20 Reputation: Supervillain, 14- (Extreme)

20 X2 STUN from Magnetic, Force, or Gravitic Attacks

1097 Experience

 

OK, now that that's over and done with, let me explain how my version of Mechanon differs from the one in the Champions sourcebook:

 

1.) Before we get to the good stuff, let me note that I've allocated 300 pts. for the GM to spend on Bases, Vehicles, Followers and the like. I don't like things being as nebulous as "he has whatever he needs" if it can be helped. This is enough for Mechanon to afford the Space Base from the Champions sourcebook, a vehicle (not an armored battlewagon, just a speedy transport for getting from place to place, and he and his minions can do their own fighting) and a dozen or more servant robots (built on 400 pts. each) to take care of minor tasks for Mechanon and to be served up to the heroes as an appetizer before the big fight. You'll note that both versions of Mechanon paid the points for the bases and such, so he has access to his gear in either form and to show I'm not trying to cheat anything.

 

2.) I'm presupposing that Mechanon only uses the detachable head gimmick to flee destruction; it doesn't seem "in character" to me for him to separate himself from his weaponry to that degree, especially when he can create (i.e.; Summon) specialized "helper" robots to do his snooping for him. If you want him to detach at will, you can do that in YOUR writeup you submit for criticism...

 

3.) After giving it some thought, I went ahead and used Multiform to let Mechanon transform from his humanoid form to just a disembodied head. Trying Shape Shift would've saved some points on his stats and Multipowers, but it created too many problems with his Physical Limitations appearing and disappearing depending on his state, as well as some other stuff. Thanks to whoever suggested that route. Since the head is what endures from encounter to encounter, I made it the "base" form, rather than the full humanoid version. When Mechanon shows up for the fight, he'll generally be in humanoid form with the Trigger to switch to bodiless head already prepared in advance. When things go badly, Mechanon activates the Trigger and detaches from his body. I considered the self-destruct on the body to be just a "freebie" -- since Mechanon's body could have just as easily been absorbed into the head when he activates the Multiform, nobody could get at it to study his technology anyway, so you can just as easily say it gets completely destroyed as a special effect of the Multiform. Once Mechanon has transformed, the head has to get back to his base and have his automated factory assemble a new chassis for him (Game Mechanic: Set Up and Activate the Multiform again to switch him back to Humanoid form) and take the precaution of updating and backing up his personality and memory files (re-set the Trigger so he'll be able to detach his head from the new body). Since the whole process takes two hours, it might make for an intersting scenario for the heroes to defeat Mechanon, then search feverishly to locate his hidden base and race there before the process is complete so they might have a chance to rid the world of Mechanon once and for all...

 

4.) Something that was always relegated to the realm of Plot Device was: What if the head gets destroyed before it can escape to its base? Up until now this required some generous hand-waving by the GM; but I believe I may have a workable solution: a Triggered Summon. If the head is destroyed, with its last bit of power it sends a coded signal back to the base, reporting all that it can about its latest defeat before going offline. The automated factory whirrs to life and downloads the information to a new head (Game Mechanic: the Summon takes effect), which then directs the factory to start assembling a new chassis (preparing and activating the Multiform to humanoid mode, and then re-setting the Trigger to switch back to "head" mode to escape). And then finally, Mechanon orders the factory to prepare a new positronic brain on the off chance that this latest head is deactivated (Game Mechanic: he re-sets the Triggered Summon).

But there are a couple of twists to this process! First, you'll note that the Summoned Mechanon head isn't particularly loyal to the old Mechanon, as you might have expected hm to be. Two reasons for this: 1.) Since the old Mechanon is dead, there's no one left to be devoted to, and 2.) if the new Mechanon was TOO loyal, he might be tempted to continue carrying out the plans of its predecessor, which would likely lead him to making the same mistakes over and being defeated again and again. The new Mechanon will decide to make a fresh start of it and try a new plan for wiping out all organic life.

The second twist is much more important, however. You'll note that the Summon power is for an "Improved Mechanon Head" worth 1259 pts., while the original head is worth only 1219. In older published versions of the character, it said that whenever Mechanon was defeated, it would improve upon its own design to guard against whatever weakness was exposed, so he could never be defeated the same way twice. Up until now, this meant the GM would just GIVE Mechanon extra points to make him more challenging. But now, it's all done LEGALLY and strictly by GAME MECHANICS. The new Mechanon will have an additional 40 pts. to play with -- enough for a couple of new Multipower slots customized to exploit the weaknesses of whoever defeated him, plus maybe a little specialized defense if he needs it (Hearing Flash Defense if someone busted out a Sonic NND on him, or whatever). Plus he'll needs to spend about 2 more points to improve the Multiform so the humanoid version has the same upgrades, and an extra couple of points on the new head's Summon so that the next incarnation of Mechanon will have ANOTHER 40 points to improve himself if he gets defeated again. In fact, even if the head manages to escape back to base to be rebuilt, Mechanon might STILL decide to have his current head declared obsolete and scrap it so he can be rebuilt with whatever new modifications he's come up with...

So why doesn't Mechanon scrap-and-rebuild himself indefinitely, gaining 40 pts. each time until he's omnipotent? Ah....THAT'S where the "Side Effects" on the power comes in -- plus, it makes a great plot device for GM's. How the Side Effect works is, each time a new Mechanon is Summoned, you'd roll an Activation roll (I'd probably set it at 15 or less). If the roll fails, then....SOMEthing amiss happens during the assembly and downloading process. Maybe noise in the signal garbles Mechanon's prime directives, and he decides to "assimilate" all organic life, Borg-style, rather than wipe it out. Maybe the little switch on the back of his head gets flipped from "Evil" to "Good" and he decides to protect humanity, like Peace-Keeper from Sanctuary. Maybe he'll decide it's enough to evacuate all life from the planet so he can have Earth to himself, and proceeds to evict humanity en masse to some other place! The possibilities are limitless, but since Mechanon is so devoted to his goal of wiping out all life, he won't destroy himself willy-nilly and risk some failure or glitch altering him in a way that might prevent him from carrying out his mission.

 

The floor is now open to coments and criticism...

[Tom McCarthy]

Well, innominatus, I think your writeup is quite complete and polished. For myself (quite familiar with HERO and Mechanon), it seems like a good writeup. For game mechanics purists, it has aspects where it is superior to the published example.

 

I would have qualms about including it in Champions as an example of character construction for beginning players, though. It's a very unusual character construct (suitable for a unique and major bad guy) which is too extreme for the 'character building guideleines' aspect of a genre book like Champions.

[Talon]

<Devil's Advocate>

 

1. The Summon summons a specific being, which is banned in the rules.

 

2. He has to define the creature being Summoned when the Trigger is set, so the improvements can't be in response to whatever killed him.

 

</Devil's Advocate>

 

Looks good to me.

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Geoff Speare

<Devil's Advocate>

 

1. The Summon summons a specific being, which is banned in the rules.

 

2. He has to define the creature being Summoned when the Trigger is set, so the improvements can't be in response to whatever killed him.

 

</Devil's Advocate>

 

Looks good to me.

 

Actually, there is now a Stopsign Advantage to Summon (+1) allowing a particular individual to be Summoned, usually only after said being is deceased - which is essentially the case here. Your second point is valid, though, but I have a suggestion for that below.

 

This is a pretty fine job of accounting for everything, innominatus. I can see the Limitations you've taken defining the Multiform for purposes of it being a last-ditch escape only, but the one complication with this is that according to the description of Multiform, the damage taken by one form is carried over to the next, so if Mechanon's body were actually destroyed in combat, the head would be too. The rules do allow for you to distribute the damage proportionately, but you'd best make sure Mechanon decides to detach his head before his body, well, loses all its Body.

 

Since you've allowed for points for a Base, and since Mechanon's base systems would be building a new body for him, it would be a significant saving for the character to build the Summoning of the new body into the base itself, rather than as part of the character's Powers. If the base has a computer or AI which could evaluate the data regarding Mechanon's defeat, and construct the new body accordingly, that would deal with the Trigger concerns which Geoff Speare raised. Either way, you would need an Expanded Class Advantage on Summon to allow for the resulting Mechanon body to be tailored accordingly.

[JmOz]

My version of Mech goes like this (note I will not be posting Stats:

 

 

Character is an AI Computer with Duplication (1 extra body)

 

If I wanted the head to still come off, I would build it as a Multiform with a OIF lim (Robotic Body), then Maybe include a large RKA w/Explosion, 1 charge, yada yada, and Trigger

[Guest innominatus]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

This is a pretty fine job of accounting for everything, innominatus. I can see the Limitations you've taken defining the Multiform for purposes of it being a last-ditch escape only, but the one complication with this is that according to the description of Multiform, the damage taken by one form is carried over to the next, so if Mechanon's body were actually destroyed in combat, the head would be too. The rules do allow for you to distribute the damage proportionately, but you'd best make sure Mechanon decides to detach his head before his body, well, loses all its Body.

 

Actually, the same would apply for Duplication as well -- the head would also start with the same amount of damage and (unless you use the optional "proportional damage" rule) the head would actually be in worse shape than the whole body form. At least, I think it would. The FAQ mentioned something about reversing the process of averaging the STUN and such of Duplicates when they recombine, so I suppose the head would start with half the damage of the humanoid form.

 

I was debating whether I should add the "Specific Individual" Advantage to the Summon -- after all, Mechanon's supposed to have a number of extra positronic brains in storage, and the version Summoned is different from the original since it's more powerful. You're summoning *A* Mechanon Head, not *THE* Mechanon head. It just happens to be programmed with a similar skill set and personality (unless the Side Effects kick in).

 

As far as not being able to retroactively modify the new chassis to compensate for whatever weakness was uncovered in the last fight....I wonder: could the Summoned Mechanon head have left those extra 40 points he was assigned UNSPENT, and THEN make the necessary modifications to himself? Making the Base the means for the Summon is also certainly an option, but I didn't want to get too specific as to what the base would be equipped with, since everybody would stock it with different things based on what Mechanon's latest scheme was...