Old Wounds Reopened. Supes/Thor

[Morningstar]

I would be willing to bet that the only answer we get in that crossover is that they both hit hard, take a good blow and make a really unstoppable team when the inevitable confusion is cleared up.

[Bazza]

Originally posted by Marcus

Well, from what I understand a JLA vs Avengers crossover is in the making... which perhaps will go a long way to giving us a 'canon' answer to this one.

I'd say it depends on the way the writer writes it. Do you really expect him to be more faithfull to the charcter's or the fanboys?

[Pattern Ghost]

Does anyone have confirmation of a Supes/Thor matchup in the upcoming crossover? They've avoided it so far. We might just end up with a Supes/Wasp match or something...

[Starlord]

JLA/AVENGERS INFO

 

Coming in Fall 2003

 

Kurt Busiek/George Perez

 

Note that right now is not called JLA VERSUS Avengers, just JLA/AVENGERS.

 

Some of the info I've read indicates an interdimensional menace that both teams will battle.

 

The 4 issue mini-series will involve, to some extent or another, EVERY member of both teams in their entire history.

 

It will also apparently have prominent Marvel/DC villains such as Magneto, Dr. Doom, Starro, etc.

 

Given space constraints in 4 issues (though double-sized issues) I doubt there will major characters facing off. At least, not facing off to the extent of deciding a clear victor. I'm guessing some minor tussles, before teaming up to beat the baddies.

 

Here...Wizard magazine has some extensive info on the crossover if you sift through the pages thoroughly.

 

http://vu.morrissey-solo.com/moz/perez/info/jla-avengers1.htm

[Blue]

Finally, some potential Scarlet Witch on Zatanna action.

[Blue]

Oh, get your mind out of the gutter. I was referring to a fight!

 

Actually, I was just making a cheap post to edge toward 400.

[Nucleon]

About Superman's "Super Speed"

 

And what if Superman had no such thing as a 9-12 SPD, but rather a good flight power and an Area Effect on a portion of his STR? That would explain how he knocks out many mundane foes so often while resorting to other, more powerful means on more powerful ones.

 

Did he ever ran as fast as the Flash on a long distance, or did he fly instead?

 

As for the fight itself, I favor the God over the Alien. We Immortals have to stick togheter, you know.

[Oruncrest]

Re: About Superman's "Super Speed"

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

And what if Superman had no such thing as a 9-12 SPD, but rather a good flight power and an Area Effect on a portion of his STR? That would explain how he knocks out many mundane foes so often while resorting to other, more powerful means on more powerful ones.

 

Superman's writers have recently remembered that Supes has superspeed and have been letting him use it on those 'more powerful foes' that you speak of. For instance: in Supes' first battle with Ignition, Supes punched, used Super-freeze Breath, punched, used Heat Vision, and punched Ignition all in the same panel. He was shown fighting Dumb- I mean Doomsday similarly. And neither Doomsday Igntion's are slowpokes.

 

Did he ever ran as fast as the Flash on a long distance, or did he fly instead?

 

Yes, Supes has run foot races with the flash, both Pre- and Post-CRISIS. In all the races, Supes and Flash ran neck & neck.

 

As for the fight itself, I favor the God over the Alien. We Immortals have to stick togheter, you know.

 

Supes was once in a 1,000-year war and doesn't look a day over 29. Who knows, he may even outlive Thor.

[KawangaKid]

Thor's Fighting Prowess

 

Ah, yes.

 

CENTURIES of COMBAT for the Asgardian Warrior. Except the years when he was forced to endure them as a mortal doctor unaware of his true heritage..

 

How was his combat skill rated again? FASERIP or otherwise? Which Marvel fighters could outdo him in combat? Good or Bad?

[Rage]

Originally posted by Morningstar70

Too late.

 

 

 

If it's in oatmeal, we'll all be happy.

 

My aren't someones dirty fantasies surprisingly clean

[Starlord]

Re: About Superman's "Super Speed"

 

Originally posted by Nucleon

As for the fight itself, I favor the God over the Alien. We Immortals have to stick togheter, you know.

 

Just a reminder.

 

In the Marvel Universe

 

God = Alien (VERY POWERFUL alien, yes)

 

Thor is not immortal.

[Nucleon]

Re: Re: About Superman's "Super Speed"

 

Originally posted by Oruncrest

Superman's writers have recently remembered that Supes has superspeed and have been letting him use it on those 'more powerful foes' that you speak of. For instance: in Supes' first battle with Ignition, Supes punched, used Super-freeze Breath, punched, used Heat Vision, and punched Ignition all in the same panel.

Mmmh. In HERO terms, wasn't that a multiple attack?

 

Yes, Supes has run foot races with the flash, both Pre- and Post-CRISIS. In all the races, Supes and Flash ran neck & neck. [/Quote]

Never saw that, but I shall give you credit. The idea of a foot-running Superman is just so weird, thought.

 

Supes was once in a 1,000-year war and doesn't look a day over 29. Who knows, he may even outlive Thor.

The DC universe had more relaunches than a PC in one year. Continuity is optional there, and I saw many, many silly things being written to be completely forgotten afterwards. I once read a comic where the Man Of Steel healed a sand-creature with a Super-Laugh, no less. Marvel has some inconsistancies too, but no one can argue that continuity is their forte.

 

Just look at Power Girl, one of the myriad Supermen plaguing the DCU for instance. This lovely heroine has 3 or 4 origins, each one less credible than the one before.

 

In the most credible stories (Crisis On Infinite Earths, Kingdom Come, etc) Superman does age, albeit more slowly. Thor is a genuine immortal (who cannot age, as oppose to cannot die), a god superior to his fellow Asgardians, whose origins are far more credible to explain his immense powers than Superman's, who was just a Kryptonian among equals.

 

(Being an ordinary alien can carry you a long way to power in the DCU. Just look at the Martian Manhunter or the Legion for that matter. As a rule of thumb, each alien can push its own planet, it seems.)

[Oruncrest]

Re: Thor's Fighting Prowess

 

Originally posted by KawangaKid

Ah, yes.

 

CENTURIES of COMBAT for the Asgardian Warrior. Except the years when he was forced to endure them as a mortal doctor unaware of his true heritage..

 

How was his combat skill rated again? FASERIP or otherwise? Which Marvel fighters could outdo him in combat? Good or Bad?

 

Thor's Fighting stat in MSH is Unearthly(100), which I've always translated into DC Heroes as 14 APs and HERO as +13 with HTH combat (I translated Thor's Agility to a 6 DEX in DCH and a 20 DEX in HERO, giving him up to a 20 CV in HTH, not counting the +2 levels with Mjolnir...). Silver Surfer, Gladiator, and Hercules all have Unearthly Fighting abilty, Valkyrie has Monstrous(75), Captain America has Amazing(50), Wolverine and the Thing have Incredible(40), Spidey and the Hulk have Remarkable(30). As a reference, the smaller the number, the worse a fighter you are. To outfight him, you need to go to characters like the Champion of the Universe.

 

For those who're wondering, Superman has a DEX of 15 APs (which I translate as 40 in HERO) and 11 APs of superspeed (+4 Overall Levels IMO) in the 3rd edition of DC Heroes. Overall, I'd still call it even.

[Morningstar]

Giving Thor only a 20 DEX would be criminal. There are numerous examples that I won't bother taking up 2,000 words to show his speed. Suffice it to say that whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't. Like Hela's death touch, Grey Gargoyles, medusa touch, or a cosmically sized giant like Suturs who's blows can even kill gods. He has been described as "fast as the lightning he lords over" That of course is an exageration, but 20 DEX is laughable.

 

As far as the benfits of being immortal besides not aging, they do not suffer the affect of any disease, the do not tire, heal at an extreme rate, require no food or drink, etc, etc. THOR once fought ZEUS for 10 STRAIGHT YEARS! no time-outs, no bathroom breaks, no naps, etc. Two massively powerful gods hitting each other with mountain shattering fists and energy blasts and still no bruises or signs of fatigue after a decade while a mortal war raged and ended. That is immortality not just Alien

[Pattern Ghost]

It's also important to realize that old MSH Agility does NOT translate over to DEX in Hero. (He's UN for Fighting, but only Ex in Agility in old MSH game, which is insane.)

 

Also, he's got weapon skills for edged that bumps him up to Shift X for Fighting, and Weapon Specialist with Mjolnir, bumping him to Shift Y for fighting with Mjolnir. That basically means he hits 94% of the time. He also successfully Evades 94% of the time, and if he rolls a yellow Evasion result (needs a roll of 41 or better on percentile roll), he gets another column shift up to ShZ for his next attack, which hits 97% of the time.

 

That's some dang spiffy Fighting.

 

As for his reflexes/DEX, he's been stated to have superhuman reflexes/reaction time/whatever on enough official Marvel material, and performed with such enough times to make his Excellent Agility rating a bit on the low side.

 

In Hero terms, I'd give him a DEX of at least 24, tons of skill levels, some MA, and a hefty dose of Lightning Reflexes. I'd probably set his SPD around 6.

[Nucleon]

I am sometime amazed at the high DEX scores people tend to give to some famous supers. I know DEX is a good investment, but that is no reason to give everybody Spidermanesque agility.

 

Guys like Thor and Superman are bruisers, not dodgers. A DEX of 17-18 should suffice for Thor, who will compensate with high CON, STUN, defenses and sizeable CSLs. Cap is more agile than the Thunder god, and I put him in the 21-23 range, all 20+ char. bought at double price, of course.

 

SPD too is often high. People seem to confuse high movement powers with SPD. Give Thor a SPD of 5, max.

 

Both SPD and DEX should be higher on the Last Son Of Krypton, maybe 24-25 DEX and 6 SPD.

[Morningstar]

Guys like Thor and Superman are bruisers, not dodgers. A DEX of 17-18 should suffice for Thor, who will compensate with high CON, STUN, defenses and sizeable CSLs. Cap is more agile than the Thunder god, and I put him in the 21-23 range, all 20+ char. bought at double price, of course.

 

SPD too is often high. People seem to confuse high movement powers with SPD. Give Thor a SPD of 5, max.

 

How many characters written up in all the Champions material have 17-18 DEX and 5 SPD? Only the very slow ones. Find a very powerful character that has stats like that. Its hard. Thor is not a 350 point character.

Read Thor comics and you will see tons of examples of a high DEX and SPD. FIghting entire teams , dodging and blasting, etc. Thousands of years of Dodging Giants, other gods etc. that actually can hurt him. In Secret Wars when he fights Dr. Doom, Ultron, the wrecking crew, Molecule Man, Titania, Volcana, and more I can't remember all at the same time, does he look like that is a low DEX and SPD? Actually look at the panels, this is just one small example.

 

If I had time I would scan and past a few dozen jpg images just to make this insane thread stop!

[Pattern Ghost]

What Morningstar said.

[Pattern Ghost]

Cap is more agile than the Thunder god...

 

Cap just flips around more.

 

Here's one: Who's more agile, the Beast or Cap?

[Nucleon]

How many characters written up in all the Champions material have 17-18 DEX and 5 SPD? Only the very slow ones. Find a very powerful character that has stats like that. Its hard. Thor is not a 350 point character.

I founded out with experience that characters put early into play with lower pts become much more effectives than charachters build on a high starting pts. One of the reasons for this are CSLs. Comes a time where hitting your ennemy is almost automatic. Instead of investing in the DEX race, you could buy an Area Effect or a BOECV, more defenses and CON, movement, offense and polyvalency. The reflexes are good too. Just because it will be effective is no reason to give the Hulk a DEX 29 and SPD 8, for exemple.

 

Read Thor comics and you will see tons of examples of a high DEX and SPD. FIghting entire teams , dodging and blasting, etc. Thousands of years of Dodging Giants, other gods etc. that actually can hurt him. In Secret Wars when he fights Dr. Doom, Ultron, the wrecking crew, Molecule Man, Titania, Volcana, and more I can't remember all at the same time, does he look like that is a low DEX and SPD? Actually look at the panels, this is just one small example.

Nucleon is a big, big fan of Thor and the Avengers. He have most Thors since Journey Into Mystery no. 83, and He can tell Thor's no dodger. The most Defensive he gets is with the deflecting trick. Fast for such a big guy, but no ninja. Of late in Avengers, he is the bruised and battered one, is garnment slashed to shreds and helmet gone, but still at the vanguard of the action.

 

If I had time I would scan and past a few dozen jpg images just to make this insane thread stop!

Please dont. This thread pleases Nucleon.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Pattern Ghost

Here's one: Who's more agile, the Beast or Cap?

 

Beast.

[Starlord]

Sigh.

 

One more time for those hard of hearing.

 

First:

The term 'god' means little in the Marvel Universe. Superman is a superpowerful alien. Thor is half-Asgardian. Asgardians (just like other 'gods' in the Marvel Universe) are also...SUPERPOWERFUL ALIENS! Thor calls himself a 'god' because he allowed himself to be worshipped by Earthlings. In Marvel, 'god' is a title, and has no bearing on a fight. Obviously, to say Thor would win ANYTHING merely because he is a 'god' is nonsense.

 

Second:

Asgardians are NOT immortal. Asgardians do not regenerate when they die. Asgardians are EXTREMELY long-lived, and EXTREMELY resistant to disease, fire, cold, etc. Thats it.

 

P.S. It is the Olympians (another race of superpowered aliens) in the Marvel Universe who are true immortals.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Morningstar

How many characters written up in all the Champions material have 17-18 DEX and 5 SPD? Only the very slow ones. Find a very powerful character that has stats like that. Its hard. Thor is not a 350 point character.

 

Exactly.

 

Couple more points:

 

-Just because you're a bruiser doesn't mean you can't have a decent or high DEX.

 

-When I build these characters, I don't build them on effectiveness, I build them to simulate how they are most often portrayed in the comics. Also, I would use a practical baseline for their stats and powers, i.e. The Champions Universe. This is a universe without NCM (THANK GOD!). This is a universe where a stat of 31 is needed to be truly superhuman. I think it very closely resembles the Marvel Universe and mostly resembles the DC Universe.

 

-I think its fair to make comparisons to certain characters in these universes. I feel Captain America is the greatest HTH fighter and strategist in Marvel. I certainly don't create a Cap that would get his ass whooped by Foxbat. I make a Cap comparable to Mechassassin, just like I make my Thor comparable (probably tougher) than Firewing.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Starlord

Asgardians are NOT immortal. Asgardians do not regenerate when they die. Asgardians are EXTREMELY long-lived, and EXTREMELY resistant to disease, fire, cold, etc. Thats it.

 

P.S. It is the Olympians (another race of superpowered aliens) in the Marvel Universe who are true immortals.

 

In Marvel Universe, Olympians and Asgardians are one and the same; a cosmic race of shifters (yes, alien, but that's not the point) that took on local folklore (see X-Earth). They are cosmic, mystic stuff (as opposed to mundanes)and their key figures are Immortal, even if their minions mays not, i.e. they do not die of age, or diseases. A bit like the Valar (or more precisely the Maiar) in Tolkien's lore.

 

Superman may come from a very advanced civilisation, but in no way a civilisation of immortals. An advanced, but mundane civilisation.

 

It is an important difference. "Gods" hold potentially more power than mundanes, so power looks less far-fetch on Thor than it is on Supes.

 

No Offenses meant, mortals.

[Oruncrest]

Is Thor's Dex too low?

 

Originally posted by Morningstar

Giving Thor only a 20 DEX would be criminal. There are numerous examples that I won't bother taking up 2,000 words to show his speed. Suffice it to say that whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't. Like Hela's death touch, Grey Gargoyles, medusa touch, or a cosmically sized giant like Suturs who's blows can even kill gods. He has been described as "fast as the lightning he lords over" That of course is an exageration, but 20 DEX is laughable.

 

And to think that Nucleon almost convinced me that Marvel stories made more sense...

 

Thor's DEX of 20 is as good as your average circus acrobat's and gives him a base CV of 7. With +13 levels HTH, Thor can have a DCV of 20 (22 if he uses his hammer) in HTH combat (You did read the whole paragraph, didn't you). Hela Amazing (50) Fighting and Amazing (50) Agility would translate out as DEX 34, +2 w/HTH, for a maximum CV of 13. The Grey Gargoyle has a DEX of 20 and NO levels with HTH. If Thor doesn't want to get hit by these two, then he won't. Period.

 

As for your asseertion that, 'whenever he absolutely must not get hit, he doesn't.' it might be better to say, 'Whenever he absolutely must not get hit, the writer won't let him get hit.' Thor gets clocked by opponents like the Hulk (DEX 15, +4 w/HTH) and the Juggernaut (Dex 8, +4 w/HTH) too often to justify a higher DEX.