The Force--Need Help!

[atlascott]

I have several ideas about how to implement characters' Force powers in a new campaign I am starting. It is set in the New Republic era, about 3 years after Death Star #2 goes boom.

 

I have considered the VPP route.

I have considered making each character just buy what powers he chooses to, separately, with separate lims. (to reflect that starting Jedi Padawans aren't all that great).

I have considered Multipower.

 

The idea is, that I will stat out about 20 known Jedi Powers, and because these guys were Padawan before coming to the new Jedi Academy (studying under one of the Lost on a remote world hidden from the former Empire), they can develop and research their own Jedi powers--and then add them to their characters as they get enough XP. This way, they can really add to the campaign world and be more unique Jedi.

 

Any advice or suggestions?

[Eosin]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

Check out the tons (including mine) of previously detailed SW systems. Look up QuestionMans profice and see his compiled SW links to find them all in one place.

 

 

ADDED - here are the SH links ---- http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24969

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

Hmm. I, personally, would go with the 'buy powers individually' route, but with some kind of cost break (they should all easily go into an Elemental Control, if nothing else). Ordinarily, I'd think the VPP would be simpler, but it's at least moderately canonical that some people are better with some powers than other powers, if you're going for a particularly tight feel ... it's also easier on game play, since you don't have to worry about fussing with doing the VPP math (I have a couple of players I would never sic a VPP on).

 

If you have experienced players, though, VPP is a good way to go, then they can buy skill levels with their preferred types of powers to represent mastery of that aspect of Da Force.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

I agree with CHC - I'd go down the Elemental Control route. And I might even allow some Special Powers, specifically Luck. It would depend on the characters conception and the specific building of the Force Power. An EC is nice because it allows the characters to get a discount, but still forces them to buy each power on their own, which I feel is something that describes the Force well.

 

Do you intend to have any Game-Mechanic differentiation between the Light Side and Dark Side Force Powers?

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

I agree with CHC - I'd go down the Elemental Control route. And I might even allow some Special Powers' date=' specifically Luck. It would depend on the characters conception and the specific building of the Force Power. An EC is nice because it allows the characters to get a discount, but still forces them to buy each power on their own, which I feel is something that describes the Force well.[/quote']

Yeah. I have done this with an EC. I even drastically loosen the restrictions on the EC because the only Powers going into the Framework are ones that I build (I might also allow players to develop new Powers, but it would be a rare occurance and I would very heavily scrutinize the Powers). This just feels less arbitrary than the idea of just straight dividing the Real Cost of all Jedi Powers by 3 like others have recommended.

 

Do you intend to have any Game-Mechanic differentiation between the Light Side and Dark Side Force Powers?

I would recommend against this. The movies always emphasize very clearly that it is the intent behind use of the Force, and not its actual effects, that lead to the Dark Side. We even have examples of Jedi using powers that many have labeled as, "Dark Side powers," given the proper circumstances and detachment. Granted there may be Powers for which there are really no circumstances (or very, very rare ones) that justify their use. Jedi are not likely to buy these Powers merely because they will never likely benefit from them (unless their storyline will possibly lead them to the Dark Side or emphasize very heavily the struggle; the temptation to use such Powers).

[atlascott]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

WRT light versus dark side, my campaign is taking a cue from the Revenge of the Sith novel, where Yoda thinks to himself that the failure of the Jedi was keeping their use of the Force stagnant--whereas the Sith evidently continued to look for new applications and uses of the force.

 

I agree with the fellow who says that the powers themselves are not really 'light' or 'dark' but rather, their application.

 

The PC's are initially taught their Force powers via a fallen Jedi, one of the Lost. He or she will advocate a more fluid approach to the development of a Jedi--not so much the standard 'learn all of these skills that all jedi know since time immorial' approach. Certain Jedi DO naturally gravitate to certain force powers--and this will be simulated by the variety of force powers that the PC's will develop and I will help them build. They will all start by choosing from a list of perhaps 10 powers taught to them by their Master, then, their Master sends them to SDkywalker's Jedi academy. When they arrive, they discover he is missing and meet other Padawans. I have a bunch of scenarios just bursting, but this is sort of the idea of wherer they start. They will bring a flexible approach to develoment of new force powers, which is much needed in the new jedi order, since the Emperor destroyed all holocrons of recorded Jedi knowledge. SOme will be recovered, some will be developed. And THEN they meet the Emperor and HIS new apprentices...

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

I would have some distinction between light and dark side stuff.

 

We all know that the dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive...

 

I would allow players to buy powers whenever they want them with the proviso that they know that powers bought when xp aren't immediately available are likely to come through the dark side - I'd give physical and psychological disads to the cost of the power used.

 

I'd also allow players to push powers beyond their normal strengths - again at the cost of accumulating Phys and Psych disads (always something bad).

 

That would give the feel that the Dark Side is easier to use but leads to the inevitable decline of the person. I might even allow the amount that a power can be pushed to increase based on the points of dark side related disads already present on the character sheet....

 

 

Doc

[SleepyDrug]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

My conversion of Star Wars to HERO uses a combination of MP, Disadvantages, and Talents to simulate the Force.

 

Jedi (or other Force-Users) use a Multi-Power. The basic MP looks like this:

 

The Force: 10 pt Multi-Power, Requires Skill Roll (Force) (- 1/2), Variable Limitation (any - 1/2 Limits) (- 1/4) (10 AP / 6 RP)

 

...for a starting Force-User. The character adds powers and size to flavor. This simulates the variety of limits we see in the movies (gestures, concentration, extra time) and the element of skill (Yoda vs. Luke in ESB). Also the element that the same power doesn't always use the same limits.

The player can add powers and flavor to taste. Using multiple abilities at once simply requires a larger MP pool than the AP of the powers used.

 

I require all Force-Users to take a Susceptibility to the Dark Side...which is a Major Transform of Psychological Limits to appropriate evilness.

 

Mental Awareness is bought as Force Awareness. Mental Defense as Strong Will. I also allow Luck with the SFX of Latent Force-User.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

I would have some distinction between light and dark side stuff.

 

We all know that the dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive...

 

I would allow players to buy powers whenever they want them with the proviso that they know that powers bought when xp aren't immediately available are likely to come through the dark side - I'd give physical and psychological disads to the cost of the power used.

Yeah. I'd say that characters can buy additional Force Powers at some points without XP or the time to train. If so, (s)he is doing it through Character Points gained by the acquisition of Dark Side Character Disadvantages (like the Physical and Psychological Limitations you mentioned). There might be some practical limit to this, of course. Those Disadvantages are probably going to be pretty severe and/or insidious. Make sure players know they are never going to go away (and then, of course, provide some very very difficult means in story by which they might go away ).

 

EDIT: However, as I said above I still see no reason to differentiate actual Powers by whether they are, "Dark-Side Powers," or, "Light-Side Powers" (except perhaps in very, very extreme examples).

[McCoy]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

What is the tone you are trying for?

 

If Force powers are available as a VPP, potentially everyone will have the possibility of being able to access all the powers.

 

If a multipower, each player might have the four or five powers that go into the "Jedi Package," plus one or two more individualized ones.

 

If an elemental control, each player will have fewer powers, each character will be more individualized, less overlap between the powers.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

i think an EC where they can put powers, is the right way to go. Definitly a PS: Force roll, with all force powers, so they can increase that as they mature as jedi.

 

As far as dark vs light, there are some powers that are clear cut (like shooting lightning, which has been shown to always be a use of the dark side, or using TK to attack people) and there are some powers you can only get using the light side, lots of concentration and focusing powers because of the meditation of the light side.

 

I'd say the way to let them experiment with the dark side, is to let them maybe *push* powers and then make an ego roll or accumulate dark side points, when they get enough, you can give them psych disadvantages.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

As far as dark vs light' date=' there are some powers that are clear cut (like shooting lightning, which has been shown to always be a use of the dark side, or using TK to attack people) and there are some powers you can only get using the light side, lots of concentration and focusing powers because of the meditation of the light side.[/quote']

I disagree. I think the Powers themselves are not necessarily Dark or Light Side. TK has uses other than attacking people (objects and droids, for example), and may even be suitable for self defense (Obi-Wan and Anakin against each other, AotS and Luke in Jabba's Palace, RotJ; I'm not convinced Luke was turning to the Dark Side at that point--in fact, I think it was the peak of his Jedihood, at least until he refused to kill Vader). Therefore, it is the particular use of TK that may lead to the Dark Side. Perhaps lightning has such other uses as well; certainly they are fewer, so I think it is just unlikely (and questionable) for a Jedi to have them. That doesn't mean they are necessarily turning to the Dark Side if they buy them (though they'd better be very careful of the temptation to use them...).

[Kyle A.]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

prestidigitator has it right. Its the intent of the person using the power that determines if its light or dark. If the intent is to harm someone, or to bring yourself power then you're using a Dark side power, no matter what it is.

 

Think of it like this. In a New Hope Obi-wan Kenobi uses the jedi mind trick to avoid a fight with the stormtroopers, a Light side use of the jedi mind trick.

 

If he had used it to get more money when Luke sold his speeder to the Jawas or to get Han to charge less for passage then that would be a Dark side use or the Jedi mind trick.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

I disagree. I think the Powers themselves are not necessarily Dark or Light Side. TK has uses other than attacking people (objects and droids' date=' for example), and may even be suitable for self defense (Obi-Wan and Anakin against each other, AotS and Luke in Jabba's Palace, RotJ; I'm not convinced Luke was turning to the Dark Side at that point--in fact, I think it was the peak of his Jedihood, at least until he refused to kill Vader). Therefore, it is the particular [i']use[/i] of TK that may lead to the Dark Side. Perhaps lightning has such other uses as well; certainly they are fewer, so I think it is just unlikely (and questionable) for a Jedi to have them. That doesn't mean they are necessarily turning to the Dark Side if they buy them (though they'd better be very careful of the temptation to use them...).

 

i never said all the powers, just some. For example in the two that i mentioned have only been used by sith, and are powers that cause you to gain a dark side point automatically in the 2nd Edition Star Wars RPG.

 

Using TK for other uses i didn't even touch, but using it to attack is a use of the dark side, because you are hurling things at someone, Vader does this at bespin and it's pretty much the same throughout cannon that TK shouldn't be used to attack.

 

As for force lightning, i can try to find the article, but i know i read in both the RPG, the books and a magazine that force lightning is specifically dark side.

 

I'm not saying that the lightning doesn't have other *uses*, but that the ends don't justify the means. Using force lightning to kill an attacker in self defense is still using the dark side. Annikin turned to the dark side to save his wife. The dark side is seductive in the fact you think you can use it's teachings for good, but you can't it's a reoccuring theme throught the star wars books, except by the Jedisaari in "I jedi" by stackpole, but that was because they only used slight sith teachings and diluted it with jedi teachings

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

prestidigitator has it right. Its the intent of the person using the power that determines if its light or dark. If the intent is to harm someone, or to bring yourself power then you're using a Dark side power, no matter what it is.

 

Think of it like this. In a New Hope Obi-wan Kenobi uses the jedi mind trick to avoid a fight with the stormtroopers, a Light side use of the jedi mind trick.

 

If he had used it to get more money when Luke sold his speeder to the Jawas or to get Han to charge less for passage then that would be a Dark side use or the Jedi mind trick.

 

And it's not just intent, a good intention (like how annikin beats count dooku) but implimented through passion without thinking and using emotions is still using the dark side. You must be calm, and tranquil when using the force

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

Using TK for other uses i didn't even touch' date=' but using it to attack is a use of the dark side, because you are hurling things at someone, Vader does this at bespin and it's pretty much the same throughout cannon that TK shouldn't be used to attack.[/quote']

 

Yet the very first time we see Qui-Gonn Jinn use a Jedi ability, it is when he telekineses several droids into a wall, is it not? There was no suggestion Qui Gon (or his apprentice, Obi Wan) lean towards the Dark Side.

 

Yoda is obviously skilled with telekinesis, as he uses it to extract Luke's X-Wing from the bog. And why would Yoda teach the last hope (OK, second last - there is another) for the Jedi a power rooted in the Dark Side of the Force, especially at the outset of his training?

 

Really, how is using telekinesis to hurl an object at an opponent "darker" than removing his arm at the shoulder with a lightsaber?

 

BTW, an arbitrary decision by a game designer that, since TK is pretty potent, we should punish players who use it (rather than bring it more in line with other abilities) isn't much of a reason for classifying it as "always dark").

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

no it doesn't because droids arn't "alive" and therefore throwing them into the wall was no more an attack than luke catching his lightsaber with TK, because all he was doing was manipulating an inaimate object.

 

Yoda didn't teach luke TK, haven't you watched the movies? Luke uses TK to get his lightsaber on Hoth to cut the arm off of the wampa that caputers him. Also Yoda lifted luke's X-wing to make a statement about the power of the force, and how luke's fears were holding him back, not to teach TK.

 

My belife is that in accordance with the view expressed by Corran Horn in "I jedi" that yoda and Obi-wan taught luke skills to defeat Vader, trying to use him as a weapon against the Emperor and his apprentice. Though again i point out that luke was not taught TK by Yoda.

 

The reason that using TK to hurl objects across the room at someone is "Darker" is because

 

1) we never see a jedi use that power the same way vader does

2) It was expressed in the West End Games of 2nd Edition star wars that the use of TK to attack was of the dark side.

3) Because you must tap the force, and use it's abilities to directly harm life, I see it as "darker" than using your lightsaber because the lightsaber is not "inherintly" of the force (unless you are using a force powered saber as seen in one of the books, i don't remember), especially because in "I jedi" corran horn beats a man with his fists and later thinks [paraphrased] "i knew that if i had used the force to aid me in that fight i would be calling upon the dark side", i know i have the wording wrong, but it seems like using the force is what makes it dark to me, and because TK is using the force, more so than a lightsaber (remember, it's just a tool), it's "darker"

 

Now as far as i can find, the West End Games Star Wars RPG was endorsed by Lucasproductions which, as far as i am concerned makes it cannon, hence i'll stick with my "if lucas says it's of the dark side, then it's of the dark side"

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

Yoda didn't teach luke TK' date=' haven't you watched the movies? [/quote']

 

Watch again. Yoda forst tells Luke to lift the ship using the Force. This is requesting Luke make use of Telekinesis on a scale far more large than he even dreamed it could be used. Yoda then pulls the ship out, demonstrating the vast power telekinesis can generate. At no time does he ever caution against using telekinesis to harm a living person.

 

The reason that using TK to hurl objects across the room at someone is "Darker" is because

 

1) we never see a jedi use that power the same way vader does

 

The only Jedi in the original series is Obi Wan and, by the very end of RotJ, Luke. Luke never really gains skills in telekinesis (beyond very light lifting), so he had no opportunity. Obi-Wan's only real opportunity to use TK would have been against Vader, and he never actually engaged Vader in combat, or intended to.

 

2) It was expressed in the West End Games of 2nd Edition star wars that the use of TK to attack was of the dark side.

 

I've already expressed the lack of faith I'm prepared to place in that. I suspect if you check the SW TCG's you'll find uses of Telekinesis to attack playable by the Light SIde without serious penalty. These are also subject to Lucasfilm approval.

 

3) Because you must tap the force' date=' and use it's abilities to directly harm life, I see it as "darker" than using your lightsaber because the lightsaber is not "inherintly" of the force (unless you are using a force powered saber as seen in one of the books, i don't remember), [/quote']

 

No one not strong in the Force has ever proven capable of using a lightsaber (with the possible exception of Grievous; I'm not familiar enough with his backstory to assess). The only example of a living person lacking force skills using a lightsaber is Han Solo opening up a Tauntaun - and look at his face when he fires the Sabre up.

 

To use your resource, WEG also tied lightsabre skill to use of the Force, as I recall. And Obi Wan's comments regarding the link between Lightsabre and Jedi make it pretty clear that only the force-skilled Jedi can properly use such weapons.

 

especially because in "I jedi" corran horn beats a man with his fists and later thinks [paraphrased] "i knew that if i had used the force to aid me in that fight i would be calling upon the dark side"' date=' i know i have the wording wrong, but it seems like using the force is what makes it dark to me, and because TK is using the force, more so than a lightsaber (remember, it's just a tool), it's "darker"[/quote']

 

Logically, it would follow that using the Force to, say, target a proton torpedo and destroy a space station the size of a small moon, killing thousands of people, would be far "darker" that using it to throw a Stormtrooper across a room and stiop him firing on allies. Yet there is no admonition against Luke for this use of the Force - in fact, it is Obi-Want who suggests it, rather than using the "tool" of the targetting computer.

 

Now as far as i can find' date=' the West End Games Star Wars RPG was endorsed by Lucasproductions which, as far as i am concerned makes it cannon, hence i'll stick with my "if lucas says it's of the dark side, then it's of the dark side"[/quote']

 

Ahhh...everything Lucasfilms endorses becomes canon. That would mean Jabba the Hutt is a humanoid with two arms and two legs. The SW newspaper strip, endorsed by Lucasfilms, depicted him as such between the first two movies. Lucasfilms also endorsed the novel Splinter in the Mind's Eye (in which Leia, raised as a princess and well-travelled, could not swim, but Luke, raised in a desert all his life, could). Read that book, set between New Hope and ESB, and tell me everything endorsed by Lucasfilms is canon

[Citizen Keen]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

1) we never see a jedi use that power the same way vader does

 

IIRC, in Episode III, the Yoda v. Sidious fight involves Yoda force-throwing stuff at Palpatine.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

IIRC' date=' in Episode III, the Yoda v. Sidious fight involves Yoda force-throwing stuff at Palpatine.[/quote']

 

Well, I guess we better check whether Ep III is endorsed by Lucasfilms

[Sketchpad]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

Actually, according to Lucas, the only things cannon in the SW Universe are the movies ... while the Expanded Universe stuff is quite cool (ie: TCGs, RPGs, Novels, Comics, Toothbrushes, BK Toys, Video Games, Toenail Clippers ... you get the idea), it's not taken as cannon by the creator of the franchise. That being said, I believe that Yoda did teach Luke a bit about TK, hence why he was handstanding and making things float. Don't get me wrong, I think that there's some natural talent in the lad, but it had to be refined

As for lightsabers ... it's a weapon ... anyone should be able to weild it. Mind you, the Jedi have powers that revolve around its use and finesse, but anyone should be able to hack apart something with it. Does this mean that Lando's going to pick it up and weild it like a pro? No. What I mean is that anyone can pick up a saber and use it, but they won't use it well and should, on phenominally bad rolls, sever something from them ("Damn ... rolled an 18! There goes my arm!"). Jedi should have special abilities that allow them to do incredible feats of skill with the saber ... like throwing it or using it to deflect blaster bolts.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

IIRC' date=' in Episode III, the Yoda v. Sidious fight involves Yoda force-throwing stuff at Palpatine.[/quote']

 

I stand corrected, and am shamed. I admit defeat. I remember him throwing the senate seat away as a deflection but i probably missed this.

 

I suppose it's just a matter of view.

 

Besides it's not my game, i should have no say.

 

for lack of a blushing smily, i'll have to go with this...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

I stand corrected, and am shamed. I admit defeat. I remember him throwing the senate seat away as a deflection but i probably missed this.

 

I suppose it's just a matter of view.

 

Besides it's not my game, i should have no say.

 

for lack of a blushing smily, i'll have to go with this...

 

First off,

 

With that out of the way, you have as much right to comment as anyone else, and the original poster ASKED for feedback. Judging by the scope of your references, you have more background information than most of us.

 

And, by simply coming back and saying "The new evidence shows I was wrong; sorry for that", you place yourself above a significant portion of posters to these boards, who will dig in their heels and refuse to acknowledge that any opinion but their own could possibly have any validity. Thank you for that, and here's hoping you'll continue your valuable contributions in the future.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

Try the Star Wars Resources Thread

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30644

 

Cheers

 

QM

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Force--Need Help!

 

I stand corrected, and am shamed. I admit defeat. I remember him throwing the senate seat away as a deflection but i probably missed this.

 

I suppose it's just a matter of view.

 

Besides it's not my game, i should have no say.

 

for lack of a blushing smily, i'll have to go with this...

Sorry to further the shame ( ), but Obi-Wan uses TK directly on the Separatist leader (I can't remember his name just now) in Ep. III, and he is obviously not just a droid.

 

EDIT: Also, as I already mentioned, Obi-Wan and Anakin use TK against each other simultaneously.