Appropriate challenges: how many points?

[buzz]

How do you gauge the appropriateness of an encounter in HERO? I.e., if I'm running a game for X number of PCs each built on Y points, what kind of NPCs are appropriate to throw at them? Is it simply a matter of side A and side B totalling up to the same number of points?

 

E.g., is Card Shark (c.750pts) enough of a match for 5-6 DC characters built on c.250pts?

 

Or am I just thinking too much like a D&D player, and HERO simply doesn't work this way? I was perusing Champions: Battlegrounds and StaST to get an idea, but I must not be seeing it.

 

I asked a similar question a while back, but it's buried in the archives now and I don't want to look for it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

I honestly don't think Hero works that way. The randomness of damage, the use of combat maneuver in different ways, the use of skills like teamwork, and just lucky rolls for something like knockback all have a way of dramatically changing outcomes in a Hero combat. Hero just isn't a system you can easily use to compare foes with. Many times while GMing I've flubbed rolls to make a villain tougher or weaker, and that's after 23+ years of gaming.

[zornwil]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

I more or less agree with MitchellS but not to the extreme he paints it. What is important is the type of attacks, type of damages, what your PCs are like, and that varies so much campaign to campaign it makes a simple clean approach impossible.

 

However, there have been threads on this. I'm going to be lazy and hope that Lord Liaden does the link thing he's so good at...but it he doesn't feel free to bump and I can look around and link.

 

In the meantime, I generally do want villains to have more "raw power" in points than the heroes. A single villain needs it especially as there's only him and his single SPD versus the characters. For a single villain, very broadly speaking, around the total of the PCs is roughly minimally needed (assuming around 4-5 PCs, more and it scales less, fewer and actually about the same as he's more likely to paste a big part of the team right away), usually 1.5x-3x just depending (3x can be excessive but useful if many of the points are sunk into "mundane" attacks). These are extremely rough guidelines, don't take them to heart. For team villains, essentially the same route, more raw points as the GM has only one mind to the players' many minds, but usually not a x3 range, more of a x1.5 on a man-for-man basis.'

 

But, really, that's so rough a cut that it's only vaguely meaningful. When I design most villains I don't do all of their stuff in detail, glossing over non-combat stuff if it's not going to come into play, but also not being efficient with the build, the two tend to balance out for a "points perspective" although with inefficient builds I do end up with villains who appear monstrous in points but are just inefficient and really worth less, so that can be taken into account. I do look at rough totals just to have a vague idea what ballpark I'm in.

 

At the end of the day, it's really about specific capabilities, not so much points.

[buzz]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

At the end of the day' date=' it's really about specific capabilities, not so much points.[/quote']

Gotcha. Is maybe looking at the campiagn guidelines a better metric? I.e., as long as each side is working under the same limitations (e.g., NCM, DCs, Active Points), the overall point totals aren't as important. Of course, the campaign guidelines in 5ER increase as overall total points increase...

 

I could swear that Steve said simply comparing total points was a valid (though rough) method when I posed this question years ago. Not sure that the published adventures really follow this, though.

[Fox1]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

Or am I just thinking too much like a D&D player' date=' and HERO simply doesn't work this way? I was perusing [i']Champions: Battlegrounds[/i] and StaST to get an idea, but I must not be seeing it.

 

HERO doesn't work that way. It's a rather complex dance of tactics, math enviroment, and of course the interaction of the different abilities.

 

You learn how to dance, or you don't. In the attempt to do so, the best advice I can give you is to start with low powered opponents and work your well up until you whack the players and then back off a bet and use that as your benchmark.

 

As time goes on, you'll need to move that benchmark as characters change and players learn (one hopes they learn).

[Mike W]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

Point totals do not equal combat effectiveness. Some characters are built better, others have more points in non-combat stuff. 10 points of wealth and 10 points in Defense Maneuver cost the same, but only one helps you in combat.

 

But as a general rule points=ability.

 

The main thing is to look at what each character can do. It takes experience and even then, things happen sometimes. I had a master villain go down much quicker than he should have recently. He actually became one of the easier fights. But then, it isn't often that my players execute a first rate triple-team maneuver either. And the fact they rolled a bit high on the damage didn't hurt them either. But it happens.

 

If you're really that worried about it, line the characters up and run a practice fight by yourself. You don't have to finish it. If you go a turn or so, you'll be able to gauge how it is going.

[Tech]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

If you're really that worried about it' date=' line the characters up and run a practice fight by yourself. You don't have to finish it. If you go a turn or so, you'll be able to gauge how it is going.[/quote']

 

This is an excellent idea. One I used when I was first beginning to GM. To really know how well particular heroes are going to do against a villain, you've really got to know the system well and your players well.

 

ex. Just because Muscle Man has a 60 Str and is the most durable hero of the team doesn't mean beans because the Player makes him act like a goofball half the time.

 

A somewhat extreme example but the point is made.

[zornwil]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

Gotcha. Is maybe looking at the campiagn guidelines a better metric? I.e., as long as each side is working under the same limitations (e.g., NCM, DCs, Active Points), the overall point totals aren't as important. Of course, the campaign guidelines in 5ER increase as overall total points increase...

 

I could swear that Steve said simply comparing total points was a valid (though rough) method when I posed this question years ago. Not sure that the published adventures really follow this, though.

I would use campaign guidelines, sure, and for villains you may (depends a lot on the groups and the dynamics) stretch them a bit. In my experience, villains generally need more power and will behave more poorly in "real" (vs PC) combat than in the mock combats (which is an excellent point Mike W made), unless the players are simply poor tacticians or bad at teamwork. Otherwise, if the players are mostly about your aptitude/knowledge with tactics and such, there being more of them they will tend to be more inventive than you might think.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

I'd say make sure to throw on defense manuver 4 or else PCs will gang up and just pound away.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

Defence Maneuver IV or some other way of avoiding being ganged up on is useful, as Roy just mentioned.

Other considerations for a Single Villain who can tackle a superteam

Extra Speed: The hero's will have WAY more actions than the villian

Extra Defences: See Above. Damage Reduction is almost tailor made for this, because it allows the villian to be tough without being unbeatable (unless you're going for the Juggernaught approach).

Extra CSL's or PSL's: These can make a BIG diffeerence, so approach with caution. Too many can make a villian almost unbeatable.

Extra Damage Classes: Obvious. Don't go too insane. about 4DC's above your players will be plenty scary.

Ways of Affecting large numbers of opponents: Explosions, AOE's etc. Punish them if the concentrate together. Sweep maneuvers, Rapid Fire.

Ways of quickly disabling opponents: Flashes, Entangles, Etc. Reduces number of actions being heaped on the Viallian at any one time.

Ways of acting Between Phases: Damage Sheilds, Triggered attacks, Uncontrolled attacks, Sticky attacks.

Ways to Bounce Back: Regeneration, Triggered Healing, Aids, etc. Helps allow a villian a chance to get back into the fight if a lucky shot puts him down.

Flexibility: Options so he doens't get stonewalled by a particular hero (unless this is intended)

Firepower: Linked attacks, builds designed to take advantage of Multiple Power attacks such as Dr. D's multiple attack multipowers. Allows for combonation effects, lots of variation, and often combines a disbling element with a damaging one.

 

I usually pick around 2 to 3 of these categories to focus on to make a Master Villian capable of taking on the party without making him a world destroyer.

[buzz]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

Okay, what about other situations, such as:

 

• Supervillain + henchmen/agents
  
• Multiple supervillains
  
• Henchmen/agents only
  

[zornwil]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

Depends an awful lot on the power level of your agents and, to a lesser degree, how you intend to treat them when they're stunned (e.g., do you just leave them out once they hit 0 stun or give recoveries like normal characters?). I'm not sure how to give a straight-forward answer, except to say that at some point the #s of participants against the heroes of course will saturate them if the participants have reasonable power. Balance the defenses of the agents against how many hits the heroes can give them before knocking them out and tweak according to how long you want them to last. Consider that and relative SPDs.

 

I would say this...if you are inexperienced with running, definitely start small and don't worry if the heroes get a few cakewalks while you get your "sea legs". Nothing wrong with that...in fact it's good for heroes to have that happen, they should feel powerful and special, generally. You may want to forewarn the players, though, that you're still testing the playing of the system and that these combats may not be typical. I'm going to guess the players aren't familiar, either, so in that case it's definitely an issue of letting yourself and them get acclimated.

[Silbeg]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

Depends an awful lot on the power level of your agents and, to a lesser degree, how you intend to treat them when they're stunned (e.g., do you just leave them out once they hit 0 stun or give recoveries like normal characters?). I'm not sure how to give a straight-forward answer, except to say that at some point the #s of participants against the heroes of course will saturate them if the participants have reasonable power. Balance the defenses of the agents against how many hits the heroes can give them before knocking them out and tweak according to how long you want them to last. Consider that and relative SPDs.

 

I would say this...if you are inexperienced with running, definitely start small and don't worry if the heroes get a few cakewalks while you get your "sea legs". Nothing wrong with that...in fact it's good for heroes to have that happen, they should feel powerful and special, generally. You may want to forewarn the players, though, that you're still testing the playing of the system and that these combats may not be typical. I'm going to guess the players aren't familiar, either, so in that case it's definitely an issue of letting yourself and them get acclimated.

 

That makes perfectly good sense!

 

Also, try and remember that you and your players aren't in competition... you are cooperating to have a good time! So, you don't always need to have balance on both sides of the battlefield. Make sure to check your villains Psych Lims, etc., as well... they will likely make mistakes, in character, that as a player, you wouldn't.

 

I recall a battle where a rather aggressive brick-type villain got hit by another character who was knocked back into him. He then used his next action to pick up the martial artist, and throw him throughthe next door building. This action went a long ways towards causing the defeat of the villain "team".

[Blue]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

If you ever find a formual, let me know

 

My campaign, last go 'round, was too easy for the heroes. But then it's nearly impossible to calculate with 8-10 heroes in play at a given time. So they will be meeting a few mega-villains soon.

[Harry Canyon]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

...8-10 heroes in play at a given time.

Gulp. Holy maximum player density! Wow! That number of players would "stress" any game system. But for Hero... YIKES!!!

 

Take care,

 

Derek

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

Okay, what about other situations, such as:

 

• Supervillain + henchmen/agents
  
• Multiple supervillains
  
• Henchmen/agents only
  

 

When I was new to Hero, I would sometimes calculate villain point totals counting only their combat skills/powers to get a rough idea of how tough they would be. Nowdays, I mostly just wing it. Of course, I usually play heroic games where there's generally a narrower range of attacks and defenses.

 

With henchmen, I have been known to fudge on the numbers available. Say I planned on there being 5 minions with 5 more reinforcing -- depending on how the players handle the first 5, I can easily raise or drop the number of reinforcements. Or give them better or worse weapons.

 

Once, when I was putting together a Champions game for a con and was nervous about the balance, I went so far as to create a spreadsheet calculating average and max damage from villain attacks compared to hero defenses and vice versa. It was more than a little tedious, but it gave me a good estimate of how many shots various characters could likely take before going down, as well as guestimating the "lucky shot" effect. Not something you'll want to do every week, unless you just really don't have a life.

 

bigdamnhero

 

"...and that's when I shot him, your honor."

[zornwil]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

If you ever find a formual, let me know

 

My campaign, last go 'round, was too easy for the heroes. But then it's nearly impossible to calculate with 8-10 heroes in play at a given time. So they will be meeting a few mega-villains soon.

8-10 is a lot, to me. I can do up to 8 reasonably effectively, beyond that is too much for me.

[zornwil]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

2 things - one, I just thought of, a PS to my prior post, lemming used to run huge groups, like 15 or something I think.

 

Anyway, the other thing, regarding the idea of a formula, I'd think theoretically the Efficiency Rating system would be a good basis for some portion of such an analysis but I've never really played with it, keep not getting around to it. Has anyone out there used it effectively? (Note, I'm not saying you could just use its numbers, I do mean as part of a more holistic analysis)

[buzz]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

What's the Efficiency Rating system?

[zornwil]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

There's a system of evaluating character capabilities. It's detailed in a Digital Hero article, I'd have to check which one (I can do that later at home), and there's an Excel for this on the Free Stuff, it's at http://www.herogames.com/FreeStuff/charactersheets/New%20EF%20Rating.xls

[buzz]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

It's detailed in a Digital Hero article' date=' I'd have to check which one (I can do that later at home)...[/quote']

If you get a chance (or someone else knows), I'd appreciate it. It'd be a good excuse for me to finally buy an issue of DH.

[zornwil]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

I just searched the boards, it's DH #3.

[buzz]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

Would that I were wise enough to think of that.

 

Thanks, Z!

[zornwil]

Re: Appropriate challenges: how many points?

 

No problem, it took me a while to think of it and I just about live here...