Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

[roch]

Just a quick question...

 

There seem to be two mechanics for opposed actions.

 

1. Roll vs. your skill; the greater margin of success wins (very crudely put)

2. Roll your STR damage and the higher Normal Damage Body wins

 

Why is (2) needed at all for heroic games? Why can't grabs be resolved using STR rolls and (1)?

 

I know there's an answer as there's always a great deal of thought behind HERO rules (one of the reasons I'm going to be trying our first HERO campaign this Sunday). I am trying to simplify things as much as possible as we are all new to HERO, and I would ideally like to dispense with (2) completely, so - can someone explain why it's needed?

 

Thanks a million in advance,

 

(_8(0)

[Vondy]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

Its a clunky holdover from a bygone era. I use straight strength versus strength rolls. I also use presence versus presence rolls for presence attacks (with a leeetle chart to note which level of effect comes into play).

[Alibear]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I don't know for sure but I suspect that when you have a guy with 40 str and one with 10 str you are much lesss likely to get the 10 str guy winning using the roll dic and count the body method.

 

A skill v skill roll could go anyway if the 40 str guy fluffed his roll and the 10 str guy rolled a 4.

 

More dice = less random rolls.

[Mister E]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I don't know for sure but I suspect that when you have a guy with 40 str and one with 10 str you are much lesss likely to get the 10 str guy winning using the roll dic and count the body method.

 

A skill v skill roll could go anyway if the 40 str guy fluffed his roll and the 10 str guy rolled a 4.

 

More dice = less random rolls.

This is exactly right, IMO. Just about any 3d6 roll is going to be way more random than a STR vs. STR: Normal Body Damage roll. When you figure that +5 points of Strength implies that you are twice as strong as the other fellow, this is a pretty significant difference. Even though so much of the system is derived from a superhero game, where characters have Strength scores as high as 60, if not higher... and some of the characteristic rolls can get pretty ridiculous... a 3d6 is a pretty big variable. (not as bad as a d20, though )

 

STR is generally thought of in terms of dice of damage, despite the fact that there is a section on the character sheet for its characteristic roll. However, odd things are always coming up in game, and it's often handy for the GM to use quick characteristic rolls, rather than slow down the game looking for some obscure rule that might not even exist.

 

IN CLOSING: None of the rules in the game are really needed. Rolling 3d6 opposing STR's is totally fine... there will probably be a few more instances of miraculous "David vs. Goliath"-type encounters, but no more so than in most other game systems, and they won't be the norm, of course.

 

The more I think about it... the more I like it, in fact. It may also be a little simpler to encorperate things like gaining assistance from skills like Escape Artist, Analyze, and such, to add to the opposed STR rolls, if appropriate.

 

TOTALLY OFF SUBJECT: It might even be conceivable, (going down the slippery slope, which isn't always a bad thing), to one day have a system where damage dice are totally thrown out... weapons and powers act as roll modifiers... and how much damage you do in combat is figured using some kind of opposed STR vs. BODY roll. The difference, if on the STR side, would equal the amount of BODY lost, which would effect future rolls. If the BODY won the roll, then the damage from the attack could be disregarded as a minor flesh wound. Hm... Weird...

[Vondy]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I switched to the straight 3d6 roll for two reasons:

 

1) speed of play

2) when counting body the results are generally so consistent that even a marginal difference can make it impossible to break out

[Mister E]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I switched to the straight 3d6 roll for two reasons:

 

1) speed of play

2) when counting body the results are generally so consistent that even a marginal difference can make it impossible to break out

Yeah. Predictability isn't always a virtue.

 

In a superhero game, where the player's stats are generally better than the NPC's, the extra randomness may hurt them more than help them. However, in a heroic campaign, where the playing field is more even, (if not tipped against the players, often-times),... not so much.

 

And when you consider GM designed plots, where it would be nice to have villains escape the heroes... 3d6 starts looking a lot better.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

Because that makes escaping Grabs pretty close to the same as escaping entangles...(aside from having to bust through Body etc)

 

Because people like rolling lots and lots of dice?

 

Because thats how its always been done?

 

 

Probably all three...

[MisterVimes]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

The same reason we have Turkey at Thanksgiving... we've always done it that way.

 

Long ago (Champions II?) I switched to stat roll vs stat roll.

[Fox1]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

2) when counting body the results are generally so consistent that even a marginal difference can make it impossible to break out

 

I don't consider say a 10 difference in STR to be marginal, after all- it's 4x as strong by definition. You should have a snowball's chance to get out of that.

 

I've always considered the skill vs. skill too random as well giving the definitions of the various rolls and have considered moving to a dice and total 'body' opposed roll method for them too.

[austenandrews]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I don't consider say a 10 difference in STR to be marginal, after all- it's 4x as strong by definition. You should have a snowball's chance to get out of that.

 

I've always considered the skill vs. skill too random as well giving the definitions of the various rolls and have considered moving to a dice and total 'body' opposed roll method for them too.

Agreed. I'd love to roll a handful of dice for a lot more things in Hero. Endless 3d6 rolls gets dull.

[schir1964]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I don't consider say a 10 difference in STR to be marginal, after all- it's 4x as strong by definition. You should have a snowball's chance to get out of that.

 

I've always considered the skill vs. skill too random as well giving the definitions of the various rolls and have considered moving to a dice and total 'body' opposed roll method for them too.

I would agree with this logic. It's spot on.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Ternaugh]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

Its a clunky holdover from a bygone era. I use straight strength versus strength rolls. I also use presence versus presence rolls for presence attacks (with a leeetle chart to note which level of effect comes into play).

 

So, could you show us your "leeetle" chart? I'd be interested in trying it out in my game.

 

Thanks,

JoeG

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

Going to skill-v-skill is tempting, but I think I'd rather leave it as-is so it synchs up with breaking out of Entangles and breaking through walls.

[Warp9]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I don't consider say a 10 difference in STR to be marginal, after all- it's 4x as strong by definition. You should have a snowball's chance to get out of that.

 

I've always considered the skill vs. skill too random as well giving the definitions of the various rolls and have considered moving to a dice and total 'body' opposed roll method for them too.

I tend to agree with this perspective.

 

In some ways, I like the GURPS approach, they also use 3d6, but the roll is not 9 + CHAR/5. Instead GURPS uses a straight roll based on the attribute in question.

 

8 DEX gives a DEX roll of 8- on 3d6

14 DEX gives a DEX roll of 14- on 3d6

[Vondy]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I don't consider say a 10 difference in STR to be marginal, after all- it's 4x as strong by definition. You should have a snowball's chance to get out of that.

 

I've always considered the skill vs. skill too random as well giving the definitions of the various rolls and have considered moving to a dice and total 'body' opposed roll method for them too.

 

If that's the flavor you want for your game go for it. Its not the flavor I want for mine. Nor am I interested in arguing with you about how I run my game.

[Fox1]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

If that's the flavor you want for your game go for it. Its not the flavor I want for mine. Nor am I interested in arguing with you about how I run my game.

 

I couldn't care less about how you run your game. My only concern is with responding to poorly presented logic.

[schir1964]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

Von D-Man,

 

I just wanted to clarify that I believe the intent of the rule for STR vs STR is correct in that it reduces the randomness of the result.

 

However, whether that rule works for your game is entirely your call and you should ignore it and use another mechanic else if it's going to hurt your game.

 

Just to make sure you understood that I wasn't implying anything about your games, just the intent of the rule.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I tend to agree with this perspective.

 

In some ways, I like the GURPS approach, they also use 3d6, but the roll is not 9 + CHAR/5. Instead GURPS uses a straight roll based on the attribute in question.

 

8 DEX gives a DEX roll of 8- on 3d6

14 DEX gives a DEX roll of 14- on 3d6

 

I'd be interested to know how GURPS handles Supers. In a Heroic game, that sounds awesome. Even when you get above 18, it works. 25 STR (which would cost 20 points), still leaves room to fail (with penalties, etc.)

 

But when you get to SuperHeroic... I just can't picture a GM saying "Ok, make a Strength check minus 3." Player: "Ok, I roll an 11, minus 3 is 14... Yup, that's less than my guys 55 Strength."

[Warp9]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I'd be interested to know how GURPS handles Supers. In a Heroic game, that sounds awesome. Even when you get above 18, it works. 25 STR (which would cost 20 points), still leaves room to fail (with penalties, etc.)

 

But when you get to SuperHeroic... I just can't picture a GM saying "Ok, make a Strength check minus 3." Player: "Ok, I roll an 11, minus 3 is 14... Yup, that's less than my guys 55 Strength."

I can't really speak about 4th Ed GURPS (the current version), but the 3rd Ed didn't handle Supers all that well, at least that is sort of a general consensus. Although I'm sure you can find people who will disagree.

[Solomon]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

I couldn't care less about how you run your game. My only concern is with responding to poorly presented logic.

 

If there's something VDM's logic is not, is "poorly presented". Besides, in this instance he was talking about personal preferences and he clearly said so. No need for snark.

 

Now for some number-crunching: a STR 8 character has less than a 10% chance of escaping a grab by a STR 10 character. So, VDM's statement that "even a marginal difference can make it impossible to break out" is pretty close to being factually true, especially in heroic-level campaigns. At least it should be easy to see how this high level of predictability doesn't suit everybody's tastes. I've been using opposed STR rolls too. Of course YMMV and all that.

 

Another advantage of the "opposed STR roll" approach is that it works equally well for superstrong bricks as for normal humans, and even works for negative-STR characters.

Whereas under the "roll BODY" approach, a STR 20 character has a lower chance of escaping a STR 20 Grab than a STR 40 character of escaping a STR 40 grab. No "logic" in that. Moreso, a STR 2 or lower character can never escape a Grab, not even by a character with an even lower STR.

 

I have been considering a middle ground approach: a single roll, patterned after attack rolls. Like, roll 9+(STR differential)/5. This would give about the same chances of escape as the "roll BODY" approach, scale equally well up and down, and be more predictable than "opposed STR roll" but less than "roll BODY".

[zornwil]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

First, let me say, I am not saying either way is right or wrong, in large part because I haven't even given it enough thought along those lines.

 

However, I think the "x2 STR" argument is entirely false. Skills' levels are based on basic chars, mostly. Those chars ALL carry the +5 = x2 logic; it is a core assumption. And char vs char and skill vs skill rolls all function with this underlying assumption. I think that therefore it's false to say that this 2x STR justifies the damage approach.

 

Personally, I guess I use a mix. In mutual displays of STR I'll usually just go with a char roll - usually. In direct confrontations it's damage-based.

[Fox1]

Re: Why does STR vs. STR use Normal Damage Body?

 

If there's something VDM's logic is not, is "poorly presented". Besides, in this instance he was talking about personal preferences and he clearly said so. No need for snark.

 

You're right about one thing- I shouldn't have used the word 'present'. It was not what I meant.

 

I meant his logic was faultly and rather silly.