Let's Talk Lovecraft

[Susano]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

Now I gotta work this into an article.

[proditor]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

There was another rule that applied mostly to the RPG CoC:

 

Don't ever read anything, even the newspaper might be suspect.

 

My longest lived character was functionally illiterate and happily passed all the brainiacs off to the rubber rooms as they went mad.

 

I think the major thing to me was mentioned by Von D-Man originally. It all looks okay at first, maybe a little odd, but nothing untoward. By the end you are ripping your own eyes out of their sockets just to try and blast the damnable images from your mind. A hard trick to pull off, but if you build in layers, it should pay off huge dividends.

[OddHat]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

It all looks okay at first' date=' maybe a little odd, but nothing untoward. By the end you are ripping your own eyes out of their sockets just to try and blast the damnable images from your mind.[/quote']

 

Again, respectfully, I do not see how this differs from normal, daily life.

[proditor]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

Again' date=' respectfully, I do not see how this differs from normal, daily life.[/quote']

And rarely have I been so glad I wasn't drinking a coke while cruising the boards.

[austenandrews]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

Again' date=' respectfully, I do not see how this differs from normal, daily life.[/quote']

Yep, just another Monday.

[McCoy]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

I would say that an essential aspect of Lovecraft is the "onion." You uncover one layer, only to find a deeper layer hidden. You fight the amphibious humanoids, only to find that they are terrorfied of the suggoths. The suggoths are afraid of the alien race that colonized Earth before carbon based life existed. They in turn are afraid of Cuthulu.

 

No matter how big and bad the monster you are confronting now is, there is something older and more evil that it is afraid of.

[austenandrews]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

There was another rule that applied mostly to the RPG CoC:

 

Don't ever read anything, even the newspaper might be suspect.

 

My longest lived character was functionally illiterate and happily passed all the brainiacs off to the rubber rooms as they went mad.

Sounds like incomplete game mechanics. In the stories the smart guys went crazy, while the dumb guys got shredded limb from limb.

 

I think the major thing to me was mentioned by Von D-Man originally. It all looks okay at first, maybe a little odd, but nothing untoward. By the end you are ripping your own eyes out of their sockets just to try and blast the damnable images from your mind. A hard trick to pull off, but if you build in layers, it should pay off huge dividends.

Yep, the steady progression is the key. Actually more like "punctuated equilibrium" - slow buildup to sudden payoffs.

 

Though I would say that very often Lovecraft's tales don't start out looking "okay," but more like "bad but probably explainable" - a shanty village gets wiped out by a sinkhole & some unknown animal; a creepy old house has a history of inhabitants sickening & dying; a friend's scientific experiments turn him into a gaunt recluse; etc. Only when the protagonist starts to uncover the truth does the ordinary world spin off into the abyss.

 

Though that does bring me to one aspect of Lovecraft's work that presents an interesting problem in an RPG: His protagonists tend to be quite learned in weird lore, yet simultaneously ignorant of the nature of the horror they're facing. They can't fathom that the world could be so insane. The stories become a succession of discoveries that the reader can clearly piece together as leading to an inevitable, mind-bending conclusion; yet the protagonist can't imagine that the case before him could possibly be so bizarre. So you get, for instance, explorers seeing carved histories of elder races, complete with plainly non-human subjects; yet they interpret these as allegorical of a presumed human society. The reader knows better, but the character doesn't realize the truth until much later.

 

How do you translate that into an RPG? In some ways players are exactly the opposite - they know full well how big and bad the universe can be. They're analogous to Lovecraft's readers, not his characters. Now, some roleplayers will play right along, allowing their PCs to be ignorant of the scope of the impending horror. God bless'em, I wish they were all that way! But most want to be scared from the perspective of their PC.

 

So the question becomes, how do you build a set of clues, like Lovecraft does, without sending the PCs scurrying for dynamite and elder talismans at the first sign of a claw or tentacle? Is it unavoidable that you must craft puzzle-like mysteries, only solved near scenario's end? Or can you actually tip off the players yet still maintain some mystery from the perspective of the PCs?

 

Thoughts?

[austenandrews]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

I would say that an essential aspect of Lovecraft is the "onion." You uncover one layer, only to find a deeper layer hidden. You fight the amphibious humanoids, only to find that they are terrorfied of the suggoths. The suggoths are afraid of the alien race that colonized Earth before carbon based life existed. They in turn are afraid of Cuthulu.

 

No matter how big and bad the monster you are confronting now is, there is something older and more evil that it is afraid of.

That's one way, true, to handle what I mentioned in the post above.

[Curufea]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

Again' date=' respectfully, I do not see how this differs from normal, daily life.[/quote']

 

Reality TV, certainly ;-p

 

And now, in the Big Brother house - the Intruder is an Outer God..."

[starblaze]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

I would throw out the sainty loss system personally and make sure you get players who are willing to play the genre. If you do that' date=' then you will have players who will on their own, allow their characters to go insane from the knowledge they are gaining and in such a way that best fits their character.[/quote']

 

Excuse me, this is completely off topic but I just gotta know. Who is that cute avatar of yours?

[starblaze]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

I don't have a problem with the whole sanity per se, but I think if one loses a certain amount of sanity they should respond to the sanity loss that relates to what freaked them out in the first place. In other words if they run into a Byahkee they should develop a fear of bats. If some Deep Ones terrify them they should a have deep and abiding fear of the sea and will probably get physically ill at the very smell of fish. They should not automatically gain multiple personalities and bark like a dog.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Personally I am somewhat ambivilant concerning Call of Cthulu. I prefer to play in a campaign and the setting for me breaks down after say the third adventure if you have the same character.

[Savinien]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

I think the sanity score could help players delineate the levle of fear they should RP...

 

It shouldn't be just another stat to min\max, but a tool for RP that bests suits the situation. And, for that, I think it would help.

 

I did play in a modern Silent Hill game at Hero Central a year or so ago. It was fun and I enjoyed the primal fear involved. It was hard to keep becoming 'more scared', though.

 

How do you deal with that sort of thing as a player? Eventually, your character would have to change his belief system on things that go bump in the night, right?

[Runehammer]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

Instead of Sanity Loss or a rating therein, I agree with earlier references to a standard monster ability of Presence Drain of varying strength based on the monster type that recovers either after a very long time or through a Psychotherapy roll, contested via target's Presence, I suppose, I do agree with not complicating things further...

Presence pumps could be added in character as Fortitude or some such, with either extra PRE or Char Def, certain items like Elder Signs could offer protection in that form as well...

 

 

 

On a side note, I'm with starblaze, hey, yamamura, who is that tasty little morsel you have for an avatar?

[austenandrews]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

I think the sanity score could help players delineate the levle of fear they should RP...

 

It shouldn't be just another stat to min\max, but a tool for RP that bests suits the situation. And, for that, I think it would help.

 

I did play in a modern Silent Hill game at Hero Central a year or so ago. It was fun and I enjoyed the primal fear involved. It was hard to keep becoming 'more scared', though.

 

How do you deal with that sort of thing as a player? Eventually, your character would have to change his belief system on things that go bump in the night, right?

It's a fair question. When I play in horror games (sadly not often enough) I gauge my PC's mindset based on the character and his experiences. More than once I've retired a PC because he'd reached the limit of his nerves. I couldn't reasonably justify him continuing to place himself in horrific situations. Even a stalwart adventurer can stagger off to safer venues and ever after avoid subways or the sea or whatever it was that pushed him over the edge. I've not yet roleplayed a PC going stark raving loony, because sufficient stimulus has not yet come up in a game; but I have roleplayed a PC temporarily losing his composure and having a total screaming freakout. How did I determine what level of fear to roleplay? Hard to say. Mostly instinct, I guess. Some characters grow numb to the horror, others increasingly lose their minds.

 

In any event I'm of the opinion that there are two kinds of madness in Lovecraft's work. The first is the "madness" that leads a rational, 20th-century gentleman to never set foot on a boat (after being hunted by sea monsters) or to avoid clear nights when particular stars shine (that experience has taught him are dangerous and watchful). This also applies to Lovecraft's many stories which begin with a narrator explaining that his tale will sound insane, but he can't hide the truth any longer. Such behavior is entirely natural for PCs - no matter who calls them crazy, they'll take precautions against known threats. The fear & behavior are genuine. Game mechanics would be superfluous in these cases.

 

The second kind of madness is "shattered nerves." "The Horror At Red Hook," for instance, begins with a stout, worldly ex-cop fainting at the sudden sight of a building (that reminds him of a place where he had a particularly horrific experience). The extreme version is the devastated wretch screaming his life away in a madhouse. This is admittedly more of a challenge to roleplay. Again, in the past I have simply relied on player discretion. Do you really feel a game mechanic would be more helpful than distracting with such cases?

[yamamura]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

Excuse me' date=' this is completely off topic but I just gotta know. Who is that cute avatar of yours?[/quote']

 

I wish knew, i found her on a website with a bunch of race queens. Unfortunately I don't have the website (was just surfing) which may have given more info.

 

Ps Here is the full picture.

[AlHazred]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

First of all, McCoy has it right. A good Lovecraft plot is like an onion, composed of many layers, some of which effectively mask what lies beneath while others hint at it maddeningly. A good example is the Case of Charles Dexter Ward. The protagonist keeps uncovering layers of the onion, overturning his prior assumptions and expectations, until he dies. Then, it falls on another protagonist to uncover layers. And you always get the sense that there are layers even deeper, to which the protagonist did not lead you. The story never fully reveals the subject matter, which leads to another important point.

 

Never be too forthcoming with descriptions and information. One thing I like in the current War of the Worlds movie is how much in the dark the heroes are. They have no idea why certain things happen, and have to operate as best they can with the information they have. You should definitely run Lovecraftian Hero as a "limited information" style campaign. Roll all the dice yourself, behind a screen, and never give the players full details. "How much damage did I take?" "Well, you feel kind of hurt, and there seems to be a lot of blood. Do you want to take the time to check the wound? There's still something in the basement firing broken glass at you." "Er, no, I'll keep firing." If you maintain this for the basics, then your players may be able to relax into the characters more, and you can hide the exact effects of the otherworldly horrors. This makes them even more otherworldly, if the PCs arent' exactly sure what those effects are...

 

If I ran Lovecraftian Hero, I'd use a derivative of the Long Term Presence Effects rule from the old edition of Horror Hero. I really liked those rules, since they didn't require me to stat out the monsters' "mindbending horror" effects - I'll be honest, I've never liked those Powers. Also, this way, you can give certain bad guys a Talent which makes them immune to the horror, to reflect the ability of the insane to deal with the horrors on a certain level.

 

May I point out Surbrook's Stuff has some Lovecraftian critter writeups? (Scroll down, they're about halfway down the page.)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

One of the reasons that Lovecraft is the only writer that has ever scared me is his style implied that "you're world is normal, this one is not, but what happens here COULD HAPPEN IN YOURS."

 

freaked me out of my skull.

 

the implied dread of it's not really real, but really it is. Is that rats in the walls I hear?

 

You have to play on mankinds basic primal fear:

The Fear of the Unknown.

The characters in his stories rarely knew everything, even exactly what it was they were dealing with... sure they might have a name like Yog Sothoth, but the characters never know WHAT it is, just that it is. And it wants to eat them.

 

So, I think the real key to a Cthulhu Mythos game is making sure that the characters, indivdually or as a whole, never get the entire picture. They're always just a bit in the dark so to speak.

[Susano]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

Never be too forthcoming with descriptions and information. One thing I like in the current War of the Worlds movie is how much in the dark the heroes are. They have no idea why certain things happen' date=' and have to operate as best they can with the information they have.[/quote']

 

IMO, the creepiest scene in the new WOTW is the burning train. Something fairly normal and mundane (the train gate dropping) results in a blazing passenger train crossing the road. No set up, no long shot of it going into the distance, just this sudden burning train roaring by. And then it's gone.

 

May I point out Surbrook's Stuff has some Lovecraftian critter writeups? (Scroll down, they're about halfway down the page.)

 

And I hope to add more.

[starblaze]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

IMO, the creepiest scene in the new WOTW is the burning train. Something fairly normal and mundane (the train gate dropping) results in a blazing passenger train crossing the road. No set up, no long shot of it going into the distance, just this sudden burning train roaring by. And then it's gone.

 

 

 

And I hope to add more.

 

Yeah, I liked that scene too.

[AlHazred]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

That's another thing Lovecraft did very well - he turned normal situations into forboding scenes by including just the very thing he needed to set you off. He has Innsmouth, a small deteriorating shore community (much like any other). But in his descriptions of the town, he includes details designed to get the hair standing up on the back of your head, little details that don' quite add up right. The large events that define the horror are helped along by the little details that support them; the burning train in WotW emphasizes just how much things have changed, increasing the ambient level of horror for the ferry scene later.

[Markdoc]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

I've been a bit ambivalent about CoC. I like Lovecraft's work (I even did a "Lovecraft tour" of New England where we visited places mentioned in his stories - that was nice).

 

But the fundamental problem is that much of the horror aspect in his stories comes from the characters realising that they are up against something that they really cannot handle.

 

That's no basis for roleplaying game though, which is why CoC almost always turns into "hunt the cultist" which is more August Derleth than HP Lovecraft. As a general rule, therefore, I tend to avoid using a CoC background and run horror games in a different setting.

 

But as McCoy points out, the essential element in any horror game is the feeling that things (probably bad things) are happening in the background - inside any mystery is an enigma, and inside that is a riddle, etc.

 

cheers, Mark

[Savinien]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

It's a fair question. When I play in horror games (sadly not often enough) I gauge my PC's mindset based on the character and his experiences. More than once I've retired a PC because he'd reached the limit of his nerves. I couldn't reasonably justify him continuing to place himself in horrific situations. Even a stalwart adventurer can stagger off to safer venues and ever after avoid subways or the sea or whatever it was that pushed him over the edge. I've not yet roleplayed a PC going stark raving loony, because sufficient stimulus has not yet come up in a game; but I have roleplayed a PC temporarily losing his composure and having a total screaming freakout. How did I determine what level of fear to roleplay? Hard to say. Mostly instinct, I guess. Some characters grow numb to the horror, others increasingly lose their minds.

 

In any event I'm of the opinion that there are two kinds of madness in Lovecraft's work. The first is the "madness" that leads a rational, 20th-century gentleman to never set foot on a boat (after being hunted by sea monsters) or to avoid clear nights when particular stars shine (that experience has taught him are dangerous and watchful). This also applies to Lovecraft's many stories which begin with a narrator explaining that his tale will sound insane, but he can't hide the truth any longer. Such behavior is entirely natural for PCs - no matter who calls them crazy, they'll take precautions against known threats. The fear & behavior are genuine. Game mechanics would be superfluous in these cases.

 

The second kind of madness is "shattered nerves." "The Horror At Red Hook," for instance, begins with a stout, worldly ex-cop fainting at the sudden sight of a building (that reminds him of a place where he had a particularly horrific experience). The extreme version is the devastated wretch screaming his life away in a madhouse. This is admittedly more of a challenge to roleplay. Again, in the past I have simply relied on player discretion. Do you really feel a game mechanic would be more helpful than distracting with such cases?

 

 

Having a points system that was considered a 'loose guide' up front could help. Otherwise, you've got drama queens freaking out when they probably shouldn't be and power gamers having their characters take it in stride. At least with a system, the GM has a game mechanic to point the Munchkin to and the drama queen has a gauge of sorts to follow.

 

I think it could help if it was done properly and known as a loose guage ahead of time.

 

I don't know though, I've never played with one before. Couldn't hurt to test it, IMO. If it becomes a distraction, drop it.

[austenandrews]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

Having a points system that was considered a 'loose guide' up front could help. Otherwise, you've got drama queens freaking out when they probably shouldn't be and power gamers having their characters take it in stride. At least with a system, the GM has a game mechanic to point the Munchkin to and the drama queen has a gauge of sorts to follow.

 

I think it could help if it was done properly and known as a loose guage ahead of time.

 

I don't know though, I've never played with one before. Couldn't hurt to test it, IMO. If it becomes a distraction, drop it.

I confess, you've got me reconsidering now. Especially in light of the PBEM format, where sustaining mood is a different ballgame from FtF. Hmm.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

I think a good point system can be very helpful in providing a metric for just how unnerved characters are becoming. The system I use is based on PRE attack. You resolve the PRE attack normally, for immediate effects, but then you have them make an EGO roll once they are done with those effects. The base "sanity loss" is 1/2d6 + 1/2d6 per +10 over EGO/PRE the PRE attack was. Every 2 points of success reduces this by -1/2d6 and every 2 points of failure (or fraction) increases it by +1/2d6 (e.g. failure by 1 = +1/2d6, failure by 3 = +1d6).

 

It should be noted that in this system atmosphere/events make a PRE attack as well. I don't think it is necessary to roll it out, just determine the severity using Standard Effect and compare it to the players to determine how they respond.

 

If you want to Hero-ize some of this mechanic, you need an advantage at about the +3/4 level to simulate the permanancy associated with sanity loss. Technically it should be a linked transform with a whole bunch of conditions (multiple targets, variable effect, limited range, etc.), but because of the variability of PRE attacks (from many factors), this becomes somewhat unwieldy. You would apply this advantage to the PRE of the creature that can instill sanity loss as a naked advantage. If the creature inherently causes more sanity loss just buy it separately (at 7.5 points per +1/2d6 to the base effect -- the ads are generally balanced by the lims so this is the easy way).

 

This is a major, partial transform to EGO "sane person into insane person". The partial comes in that at 2/3 EGO in "sanity loss" they suffer a cosmetic transoformation (5-10 point distinctive feature or equivalent), drooling, talking to themselves, nervous tick, etc -- anything distinctive but ultimately cosmetic. At 4/3 EGO they suffer a minor transoformation -- this is where phobias and other significant disads set in. Nothing totally debilitating but clearly the individual is on a path to invalidation. At 6/3 EGO (i.e. EGO*2) they lose it completely -- use existing disads to determine in what manner (e.g. someone with Enraged/Berserk becomes homicidal, someone with Protects Others protects a tree stump, etc.).

 

Recovery is a matter of healing as normal. If you want a "Mental Recovery", use PRE/5 + EGO/5. This is how much sanity you will regain in 1 month. However, if you suffer more sanity loss then that month resets. Time in a restful location will be helpful, possibly doubling the rate, but once you have crossed one of the thresholds you need counseling/therapy (2/3), usually outpatient, and commital (4/3) to ease your suffering. Generally, with such assistance recovery proceeds at a normal pace (i.e. MREC/month), and once all of the sanity has been regained to cross the lower threshold the individual is either released (4/3) or sessions are halted (2/3).

 

It's a relatively simplistic approach, but it does enough for me to simulate the process, including recovery, in a gameable enough manner to be cinematic and fun.

 

YMMV. For what it's worth, I started building the effect in a literal fashion and just found that it wasn't worthwhile. Tacking an ad onto PRE and then buying extra dice straight up was balanced enough and made it easy for me to judge a challenge.

[ThothAmon]

Re: Let's Talk Lovecraft

 

Chiming in late I'd make a few points thus:

 

(1) Lovecraft was a bit of an upper class intellectual snob, racist and slightly mysoginist. Stories such as Call of Cthulhu, Innsmouth and Dunwich Horror play on the fear of the inbred, unwashed et al. Classic pulp elements yes, but reflected through the 'lens' of a man who was effectively the last of an old New England family who couldn't adjust to the world he found himself in. Paranoia and ancestral / primal fears along these lines (fear of the different, the new, the fecund etc) should definitely feature

 

(2) IMO it's a mistake to exlude later Mythos writers (with the exception of August Derleth). Sad to say it but the non-Lovecraft stuff is often stronger and better than Lovecraft himself. Three examples: Ramsay Campbell excels in Mythos tales of alienation and madness in both city and country, Thomas Ligotti is a stunning fabulist and Robert Bloch was just sublime in his Mythos tales.

 

(3) Chaosium's product is a mixed bag featuring Derlethian and Lovecraftian influences. IMO ignoring it would cut you off from some good stuff as the best Chaosium material is awesome indeed. The Lovecraft Country supplements (Arkham Unveiled, Tales Of The Miskatonic Valley) and the scenario packs The Great Old Ones and Unseen Masters are all fine roleplaying products.

 

(4) Game mechanics don't necessarily help the horror angle. There is no substitute for players who are prepared to play the role to the hilt.