NCM-type for strength

[MitchellS]

M&M [2.0] has a new power [changed from the 1.0 version] which I really like called "super-strength." Basically what this power allows the character to do is gain additional strength for things like throwing and lifting heavy objects. It does not give you any extra damage, outside of improving holding someone. Each 1 point gives you +5 strength [effectively doubling your strength - yes, it works just like Hero]. I'd like to do something similar for Hero in order to make characters "super" strong without inbalancing the damage caps. I can see doing this:

 

+5 strength, no figured: -1/2, only for lifting/throwing: -1. Total cost: 2 points.

 

So rather than doing the math just call it a new adder:

 

Mega-Strength: each +2 points spent doubles the character's lifting capacity just like how NCM movement doubles velocity. So a character with a 50 strength [25 tons] can buy 10 points of mega-strength [x32 ncm] and be able to lift 800 tons.

 

This would allow characters to pick up tanks, jets, even buildings without need massive strength scores. You could also better simulate characters like Superboy's tactile telekinesis with something like this.

 

Thoughts? Opinions?

[SleepyDrug]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

I like the general idea, but not the doubling. Thats a bit much I think.

[MitchellS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

I like the general idea' date=' but not the doubling. Thats a bit much I think.[/quote']

I guess I'm a little confused by your answer because each +5 strength automatically doubles in Hero.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

Don't even think about it ORION. Let your Sidekicks do all the work for you.

 

*Posts and Runs*

 

QM

[radioKAOS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

"+5 strength, no figured: -1/2, only for lifting: -1. Total cost: 2 points."

 

That works, I don't see the need to complicate things with thinking NCM/adder...

[radioKAOS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

Don't even think about it ORION. Let your Sidekicks do all the work for you.

 

*Posts and Runs*

 

QM

 

lol, actually I've been thinking about this for a while now...

 

Son of Atlas +40 STR, no figs -1/2, only for lifting -1, Total Cost: 16pts

[MitchellS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

"+5 strength, no figured: -1/2, only for lifting: -1. Total cost: 2 points."

 

That works, I don't see the need to complicate things with thinking NCM/adder...

I hate seeing the mechanics of the game. Everything you currently see in Hero as an adder is actually a power or advantage within itself where the mechanics are hidden [the same for talents as well]. I prefer to hide the mechanics and just create the adders [and that is how all other games handle it as well].

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

lol, actually I've been thinking about this for a while now...

 

Son of Atlas +40 STR, no figs -1/2, only for lifting -1, Total Cost: 16pts

 

That's doable. You might want to concider the limitations inherient in Atlas's Lifting though. Like 0 DCV, Cannot move, etc...

 

Just a thought

 

QM

[radioKAOS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

I hate seeing the mechanics of the game. Everything you currently see in Hero as an adder is actually a power or advantage within itself where the mechanics are hidden [the same for talents as well]. I prefer to hide the mechanics and just create the adders [and that is how all other games handle it as well].

 

Ahh, see, that's part of the reason I like HERO. I want the game mechanics to be laid out simply for me, rather than have some 'adder' that magically makes something happen... Just a difference in flavour I suppose.

 

That's doable. You might want to concider the limitations inherient in Atlas's Lifting though. Like 0 DCV, Cannot move, etc...

 

Just a thought

 

QM

 

Yeah, wow, I could have massive amounts of lifting strength then!!

[OddHat]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

Meh. I never like the doubling every 5 points, and I never liked the comic book convention that you can throw a tank but your full strength punch doesn't even break bones.

 

If I were to mess with the Champion's Strength system at all, I'd do it in semi-linear 3rd edition GURPS style, with a linear increase in lifting strength and damage, and the possibility of extra effort increasing lift by 20% or so for each point by which a STR roll is made (a bit less at the high end than the 3rd Ed GURPS approach). As it is now, STR 60 Super Ted can lift the Space Shuttle, but can't be sure of killing an ordinary man in a single blow.

 

However, this is one debate that never gets resolved.

[MitchellS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

Ahh' date=' see, that's part of the reason I like HERO. I want the game mechanics to be laid out simply for me, rather than have some 'adder' that magically makes something happen... Just a difference in flavour I suppose.[/quote']

You must really hate talents and superskills then.

[radioKAOS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

You must really hate talents and superskills then.

 

"Really hate"? I think it would be silly to place that much emphasis on a game mechanic, period And those who do bother to place that much emphasis I would politely ask to spend some time outside, preferably away from their books, heck, maybe they should even engage a member of the opposite sex in a conversation or something

 

I like talents for some things that are in the 'inbetween skills and powers' arena. "Simulate Death" for instance.

 

Other than that, I don't mind talents when they have the power explanation within them, though I think those ones are just nice names for mechanics you should just buy as powers anyhow.

 

Do I generally use talents? No, not really. Of course I usually use HERO for Supers games, and most talents are designed for lower point games than that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

+5 strength, no figured: -1/2, only for lifting/throwing: -1. Total cost: 2 points.

 

So rather than doing the math just call it a new adder:

 

Mega-Strength: each +2 points spent doubles the character's lifting capacity just like how NCM movement doubles velocity. So a character with a 50 strength [25 tons] can buy 10 points of mega-strength [x32 ncm] and be able to lift 800 tons.

 

This would allow characters to pick up tanks, jets, even buildings without need massive strength scores. You could also better simulate characters like Superboy's tactile telekinesis with something like this.

 

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

This is a good thought and an excellent idea.

 

I would relegate it to a Talent: Super Strength than an Adder to the STR Power. But that's just semantics at that point. The idea is the same.

 

I may try building some characters with this mechanic and see how it works.

[pinecone]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

Looks like a cool idea..I'll have to think on awile before I'm totally convinved though...MR. Lifto! +100 STR No figured -1/2, only for lifting -1,only for things attached to piercings -1/2.....33 points....Hmmm...

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

 

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

Makes a great talent. Very nice for the Conan types in Fantasy in addition to any other Supers kind of thing.

 

Consider it stolen.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

Makes a great talent. Very nice for the Conan types in Fantasy in addition to any other Supers kind of thing.

 

Consider it stolen.

 

I agree that this is a great structure for a Talent in an heroic-level game.

 

In principle this would be a cool addition to the repertoire of Strength abilities for super Brick characters. I'm still a little uncertain about the Adder approach as opposed to Limited Strength, though. When you deal with characters with a high base STR stat there would be areas where the two approaches would start to differ noticeably, such as END use, and applying Advantages to STR.

 

I'd like to think more about this, perhaps play with it a bit, before I comment further.

[OddHat]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

STR already gives far too much lift in comparison to increased damage at higher levels. Add this, and now we can have heroes who can throw a car into orbit but can't throw a punch that can reliably kill an ordinary man.

 

I just can't see using this in one of my campaigns.

[MitchellS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

STR already gives far too much lift in comparison to increased damage at higher levels. Add this, and now we can have heroes who can throw a car into orbit but can't throw a punch that can reliably kill an ordinary man.

 

I just can't see using this in one of my campaigns.

I'm of the opposite mind: Hero gives you too little lift and throw compared to strength. A character with a 60 strength [100 tons] can only throw a tank 2" [requires 55 str to lift it]. I don't believe all tough characters need to have a 90+ strength just to be effective within the game [and even then the character can only throw a tank 14" - a far cry from what you see in the comics]. Mega-strength gives you the ability to do things that have no direct impact on combat. Gladiator can pick up the Baxter Building without also needing to have a 250 strength [and thus doing 50d6 damage with each hit]. Superman can help move the moon without needing a 300 strength, etc. It opens up options without needing to rewrite the strength chart you do not seem to like.

[MitchellS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

Makes a great talent. Very nice for the Conan types in Fantasy in addition to any other Supers kind of thing.

 

Consider it stolen.

I hope you get some good use out of it. I'm sure I will.

[MitchellS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

I agree that this is a great structure for a Talent in an heroic-level game.

 

In principle this would be a cool addition to the repertoire of Strength abilities for super Brick characters. I'm still a little uncertain about the Adder approach as opposed to Limited Strength, though. When you deal with characters with a high base STR stat there would be areas where the two approaches would start to differ noticeably, such as END use, and applying Advantages to STR.

 

I'd like to think more about this, perhaps play with it a bit, before I comment further.

I prefer adders because I don't believe talents should interfere with existing powers. Talents, in my mind, should be stand alone things. I do think I would change the power slightly to add 0 end to the additional strength. And then the adder would add additional end as used. Example:

 

+5 strength, 0 end: +1/2, No figured: -1/2, Lift/Throw only: -1. Total cost 3.

 

Now the cost is 3 instead of 2. When you buy 2-5 levels the end cost of strength will go up by 1, 6-8 levels by 2, etc. So there is some additional end usage involved with an adder which is not the case with a talent.

[OddHat]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

I'm of the opposite mind: Hero gives you too little lift and throw compared to strength.

 

We disagree, but I'd still be glad to chat with you over a beer.

 

A character with a 60 strength [100 tons] can only throw a tank 2" [requires 55 str to lift it].

 

Yes, throwing and movement are both odd in Hero. Wasn't the classic example of that problem something like a baby throwing a football 200 yards? Why not use the Realistic Throwing rules in the Ultimate Brick, p.114-115? On that chart, a STR 60 character can throw a 50 ton tank 20". No adders, just a simple rules correction.

 

I don't believe all tough characters need to have a 90+ strength just to be effective within the game [and even then the character can only throw a tank 14" - a far cry from what you see in the comics].

 

Neither do I, particularly. By the way, under the UB rules, the STR 90 character can throw that tank 81,920". That's far enough.

 

Mega-strength gives you the ability to do things that have no direct impact on combat. Gladiator can pick up the Baxter Building without also needing to have a 250 strength [and thus doing 50d6 damage with each hit]. Superman can help move the moon without needing a 300 strength, etc. It opens up options without needing to rewrite the strength chart you do not seem to like.

 

I always thought that massive lifting strength but no proportionate increase in damage was silly in the comics, but feel free to simulate it if that's what you like in your campaigns. For myself, if I were going to worry about this in a campaign, I'd rather re-write the Strength chart. I kind of dislike it.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

I'd rather see those rule fixes in a PDF as part of the errata. Now MitchellS is going to kick me for saying this but I am not buying UB just to see what the new rules are about. I want to see them because I play HERO and have already paid money for the hardback rules (5e and 5ER).

 

Hawksmoor

[OddHat]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

I'd rather see those rule fixes in a PDF as part of the errata. Now MitchellS is going to kick me for saying this but I am not buying UB just to see what the new rules are about. I want to see them because I play HERO and have already paid money for the hardback rules (5e and 5ER).

 

Hawksmoor

 

The Realistic Throwing rules are optional, but I agree that the chart at least should be available as errata, or in the FAQ.

 

For what it's worth, I like Ultimate Brick, and I think it's worth purchasing, but YMMV.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

I'll be interested in seeing what optional rules from Ultimate Brick made it into the Combat Handbook, because the promotional blurbs state that some of them did.

[MitchellS]

Re: NCM-type for strength

 

I'd rather see those rule fixes in a PDF as part of the errata. Now MitchellS is going to kick me for saying this but I am not buying UB just to see what the new rules are about. I want to see them because I play HERO and have already paid money for the hardback rules (5e and 5ER).

 

Hawksmoor

You mean you don't want to see the new [and better] versions of Ogre and Grond? Shame on you.