How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

[zornwil]

I'm referring to how powers have to be visible to 3 sense groups and that IPE (just as a single example) is invisible to "one targeting sense" and other such instances.

 

I personally go more by "feel". I like the 3 sense group rule and I think it is absolutely correct. And I use that as the bar to go by. But I don't really give individual power constructs that are submitted that much attention beyond ensuring that they are fairly obvious, and as discusssed in a thread on IPE I go more by whether it falls under that level of effectiveness rather than strictly one targeting sense per se.

 

Just wondering if people perform a fairly strict accountability or what. Not suggesting anything regarding any better ways to do it (though perhaps some people do some cool things I never thought of, hence the thread).

[MitchellS]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

We do not really use it at all. We understand you can see the fire, feel it burning you, and smell the heat but those are all just special effects to us. We have gone so far as to even house ruling that the IPE advantage is +1/4 for a single sense and +1/2 for all of them because we really don't feel it adds that much to the game.

[TheEmerged]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I'm from the "borderline fascist" school when it comes to the 3-sense rule; I enforce it even for movement powers, density increase, armor and force fields (which isn't the canon rules). However, in many cases I allow them to be bought to "effectively invisible" for +1/4 whenever I feel it's appropriate.

 

Of course, the reason for this is that the PC's are quite careful on sense issues -- one has a perpetual darkness field, and the other three all have alternate targetting senses. So I *have* to pay a little bit more attention than most

 

Why would 3-senses matter for movement powers? Because someone using a power should be easier to detect than someone that isn't, in my opinion. If Sapphire and Nightduck are both in a darkness field, and Sapphire is hovering while Nightduck is standing still, Sapphire's active flight (even just the portion needed to hover) should make her easier to hear.

[pinecone]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I don't give it a large amount of attention...I more of less say...It has to be detectable, rather than using some strict proscription....I agree that safires flight is detectable, but I don't much worry How unless someone trys to make it into an advantage...at that point I expect them to pay fpr the advantage....so I seldom worry about it at all.....

[austenandrews]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I don't think about visibility in terms of rules. I think about SFX. Unless someone has bought IPE or Visible, it's just a common sense call.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I absolutely use the 3 Sense Rule at all times. I use common sense to decide which senses can be used to detect which Power, according to its SFX. I do this with every Power, not just attack Powers.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I use, "lazy initialization." That is, usually I just describe the SFX. When something comes up that makes it matter (unusual/non-targeting senses are used, someone wants to make a Power partially or completely visible, there is an obvious effect on Stealth, etc.) I will make a judgement call, talk to the owning player, and decide the full visibility of the power (or at least as much as is required for the situation). I will then continue to use this definition in the future when it matters.

[OddHat]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

It's story/comcept driven for me. In the books, the Luck powers already mostly ignore it, Armor ignores it, DI mostly ignores it, etc.

 

If a character wants to get an in-play advantage from his invisible power effects (my invisible force tentacles allow me to strike my foe without him seeing the attack coming", "my flight helps me sneak up on him"), I make him pay points. If it's just a matter of "my force field is my super hard skin" and similar SFX issues with no game effect, I see no good reason to charge for it.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

i use it all the time. in fact it was once the sticking point when i tried to make luck with "costs END"

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I think it would be most accurate to say that I'm aware of it, but don't make a player (or an NPC, for that matter) absolutely lay out for each power which 3 sense groups can detect it. Usually I go by obvious common sense (most attack powers you can see and/or hear, for example) and then only worry about the specifics if there's a particular reason to; even then, a quick default usually gets the job done (is the power based on electricity, charged particles, or something like that? The the Radio group should do the trick for the 3rd sense group...). In the event that's not enough, I'll pause, give it a moment's though, and speak with the player if necessary.

 

My main aims are to keep it in mind, but not let it slow down the flow of play if I can possibly avoid it.

[zornwil]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Thanks for all the answers! And on a Saturday, expected less feedback. Just got done with our game a bit ago, we finished around 11:30 but then talked for a while, we didn't even break for dinner.

[Mister E]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I'd probably make Superman's player pay the +1 Advantage to make his Flight's SFX Fully Invisible.

 

If there was some kind of semi-canon/general Board concensus/quasi-official ruling that figured, "for these Powers, and Powers with these Advantages, IPE should cost less"... I'd use it.

 

SFX is such an important, (sometimes forgotten), element of the game...

[Trebuchet]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

We're pretty much in Dr. Anomaly's school on this issue. To us the sfx determines the visibility, not the other way around. If a guy is flying because he has wings, then the "Visibility" means you can see and hear his wings flap, not that you also detect some mythical "Flight Energy." OTOH, if the lightning blast from Thunderbird goes off, so does the bright flash of that lightning and rumble of thunder. We use common sense as our basis, not the strict "Three senses." If it's incumbent upon the story for T'bird's lightning to also cause radio static, fine. But only if there is some reason, and in general "internal" Powers (Desolidification, Density Increase, etc.) are far less visible than "external" Powers like Energy Blast or Force Wall. Armor or Damage Reduction use no END and hence are invisible by default, at least until the target is hit. (And even then, there is no real way for a character to know if a target's seeming invulnerability comes from scads of Armor and Stun or 75% Damage Reduction unless the GM sees fit to give clues or the defense has an obvious sfx.)

 

Personally I think the "three senses" rule is an overcompensation for a single Power, Invisibility. Is a bad guy using Invisibility going to be detectable just because he's using a Power, or simply because he's only invisible to Normal Sight and IR and your powered armor guy has UV? Either way, he's hosed.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

We're very casual about it in our games, when it becomes important we bring it up.

 

I have one character where IPE is exrtemely important to them - Invisibility is their power, as is making things invisible with them. And one character with an alternate targeting sense (actually, sight is really their secondary sense since the alternate operates at 360deg). In those two cases Visibility becomes a slightly more prominent issue.

 

Beyond that it's cool, but has little actual game effect. If a guy shoots fire from his eyeballs all the players tend to assume it smells, looks and sounds like fire is being shot from his eyeballs.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

We're pretty much in Dr. Anomaly's school on this issue.

Is that the royal, "We?"

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I find common sense to be much more useful and reliable than the arbitrary "3 sense group" rule. Yes, powers must be detectable if they aren't bought with IPE, but I wish the rulebook had just said that instead. The 3-sense rule isn't always reliable anyway. You could have an EB that emits UV, Radio waves, and ultra-low sound. That's three sense groups, but normal people can't detect it at all!

 

To me, it's a guideline, not a rule. An attack power can always be felt by the target, and can usually be seen or heard or both. A movement power can always be seen and felt, and usually heard. Don't forget that Running is a power, and Stealth can be used to hide it from detection, without IPE. In general, I usually say that non-attack powers must be visible to at least 1 sense group (but are often visible to more based on common sense).

 

For those of you who strictly apply the 3-sense rule, do you give a Limitation if a power is visible to *more* than three senses?

 

I'd probably make Superman's player pay the +1 Advantage to make his Flight's SFX Fully Invisible.

Really? This came up on the other thread, but I'm not sure I made my point clear. Can you tell me, what benefit does Superman get that makes it worth paying double for his flight?

[ghost-angel]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I find common sense to be much more useful and reliable than the arbitrary "3 sense group" rule. Yes' date=' powers must be detectable if they aren't bought with IPE, but I wish the rulebook had just said that instead. The 3-sense rule isn't always reliable anyway. You could have an EB that emits UV, Radio waves, and ultra-low sound. That's three sense groups, but normal people can't detect it at all![/quote']

 

That's three "Senses" not three "Sense Groups" very very big difference.

 

UV Sight is part of the Sight Group. It is not a Group itself.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

That's three "Senses" not three "Sense Groups" very very big difference.

 

UV Sight is part of the Sight Group. It is not a Group itself.

Yes. I know that, but "visible to three sense groups" doesn't mean that *every* sense within that group can detect the power. You can see my ice ray with normal vision, but not with IR, for example.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Yes. I know that' date=' but "visible to three sense groups" doesn't mean that *every* sense within that group can detect the power. You can see my ice ray with normal vision, but not with IR, for example.[/quote']

 

Actually, I would say that "visible to three sense groups" means just that - "Visible to three Sense Groups" which if it's for Sight means: Normal Sight, UV Sight, IR Sight...

 

Why wouldn't an ice-beam be visible to IR? I'm not at home, and don't have my book, but if the rules say Three Sense Groups that's what it means, otherwise the rules would say Three Senses.

[Mister E]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

Really? This came up on the other thread' date=' but I'm not sure I made my point clear. Can you tell me, what benefit does Superman get that makes it worth paying double for his flight?[/quote']I'm going to have to retract my statement. Upon further research, I've discovered that Movement Powers have special rules/interpretations concerning SFX, which are quite a bit different that all other Powers.

 

Page 123 5er:

 

Movement Powers have perceivable special effects' date=' just like any other Power. In most cases this means others can see the character move (he's running, flying, hovering, teleporting, or what have you), hear his movement (as a rush of wind, footsteps on the ground, a sound effect that accompanies Teleportation, and so forth), and "feel" the movement if the character moves near them or collides with them. The exact special effects of the Power is up to the player, or course. Some forms on Flight might be visible because they leave a glowing energy trail, for example, or the stench of brimstone may accompany a demon's Teleportation.[/quote']Page 124 5er:

 

Invisible Power Effects: Character should not normally purchase IPE for the Sight Group for Movement Powers' date=' since the fact that a character has moved from one point to another by some means will be easily perceivable. However, a character could purchase it to, for example, make a Movement Power silent.[/quote']Now, if I bought IPE for the Sight Group on an EB, and blew a hole in a wall with it, anyone in the room is going to see the hole in the wall, and nobody at the gaming table is going to argue that the Visible SFX of the EB were not still invisible.

 

However, Steve Long (or whoever) has made it clear that the simple act of moving should be considered a Visible SFX of Movement Powers. He's given room to let the Player fool around with adding other Visible SFX if the Player wants to, but it doesn't seem like it is required.

 

Personally, I think this is all pretty lame, and it bugs me that the game designers themselves don't seem to be able to grasp the difference between the Effects of a Power, and the SFX of a Power... but whatever.

 

The end result is: You only have to add a +1/2 Advantage to a Movement Power to make its SFX Fully Invisible; and any Visible SFX you add to a Movement Power (beyond the ridiculously obvious fact that you have moved) is pure fluff.

 

I stand corrected.

 

 

~ Mister E

 

P.S. I don't care what the book says, I'm not going to let "collisions" with a Character using a Movement Power, be considered a tactile SFX of the Movement Power. That is going too far.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

My munchkiny example DOES use three sense groups: Sight, Hearing, and Radio. Ice is invisible to IR because it doesn't give off heat.

 

Now' date=' if I bought IPE for the Sight Group on an EB, and blew a hole in a wall with it, anyone in the room is going to see the hole in the wall, and nobody at the gaming table is going to argue that the Visible SFX of the EB were not still invisible.[/quote']

Yes, but nobody will know where the attack came from, which is the main purpose of IPE. A gun with a silencer and flash suppressor can be used to kill someone. Anyone can see the person is dead, and if they have super-hearing, can tell that his heart isn't beating. The gun is still IPE because it has the tactical advantage of keeping the wielder's location hidden.

 

Personally, I think this is all pretty lame, and it bugs me that the game designers themselves don't seem to be able to grasp the difference between the Effects of a Power, and the SFX of a Power... but whatever.

It has more to do with the difference between SFX and a difference which gives an advantage. Should a normal person have to buy IPE on his running because he doesn't leave a glowing energy trail behind him? You can see the person running, you can see Superman flying. Nothing is being hidden, therefore no IPE.

 

P.S. I don't care what the book says, I'm not going to let "collisions" with a Character using a Movement Power, be considered a tactile SFX of the Movement Power. That is going too far.

It isn't just collisions, it's also air movements which can be easily felt when there is movement near you. Have you ever been pulled over on a freeway? You can feel the air wake of every car that goes by.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

My munchkiny example DOES use three sense groups: Sight' date=' Hearing, and Radio. Ice is invisible to IR because it doesn't give off heat.[/quote']

 

Ah, but an Ice Beam would have a difference of tempurature to the surrounding ambient tempurature, thus rendering it black against what could possibly be blue or warmer - thus it is visible in the sense that you know there was something of a different heat pattern there.

 

Ergo - it is not invisible it IR, it just isn't warm. There is a big big difference. The only way to redner somethnig "Invisible to IR" is to make it the same temperature as the surrounding temperature. Like say Average Man's 'Room Temperature Beam.'

 

I'm sorry, but Three Sense Groups means just that as far as I'm concerned - there can be situations that would change that - deep in a cave where there is no UV Light to work with renders UV useless, Ice Man throwing Ice Beams around in a freeze makes IR unable to percieve them - but those are situational and not general use. normaly the Ice Beam is visible to IR.

[schir1964]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

I'll guess I'll throw in my view and create some chaos. (8^D)

 

I pay attention to it intently at creation time and then deal with it appropriately in the campaign.

 

However, I also hold the strick definition of the rule to the letter to allow for some odd but common sense type decisions.

 

1) A Power that is "Visible" means, Visible To Sight Sense, Visisble To Hearing Sense, and Visible To A Sense in the Radio group (player's choice).

2) A Power that is "Invisible" means, Invisible To All Sense Groups.

3) A Power that is "Not Visible" means, Not Visible To Sight Sense Group, and/or Not Visible To Hearing Sense Group, and/or Not Visible To Radio Sense Group.

 

Therefore, Armor is not invisible, it is simply not Visible.

This allows for Armor to be seen or heard only as the SFX might suggest without requiring "Visible" per the definition.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[TheEmerged]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

RE: Requiring players to define the groups. Actually, I bypass a lot of this with a few standards

 

1> Every non-mental power is visible to normal sight.

2> Except in VERY special cases, sense number two is normal sound

3> When in doubt, sense number three is mental

3a> If the defense is ED, sense number three should probably be Radio (as static if nothing else).

3b> If the defense is PD, sense number three could well be olfactory (sensing the sweat the physical exertion causes, for example)

[Mister E]

Re: How much attention do you give to powers' Senses visibility rules?

 

My munchkiny example DOES use three sense groups: Sight' date=' Hearing, and Radio. Ice is invisible to IR because it doesn't give off heat.[/quote']On the topic of Freeze-Rays and Infra-vision... I think it is reasonable to assume that a Freeze-Ray would be visible... but I think it is more realistic to rationalize that a Freeze-Ray is beyond the perceivable range of Infra-Vision, which is usually tuned to a very particular, and sensitive spectrum of the IR.

 

Yes' date=' but nobody will know where the attack came from, which is the main purpose of IPE. A gun with a silencer and flash suppressor can be used to kill someone. Anyone can see the person is dead, and if they have super-hearing, can tell that his heart isn't beating. The gun is still IPE because it has the tactical advantage of keeping the wielder's location hidden.[/quote']... and if you see a man flying around without any visual SFX, you wouldn't know how it was done, or the Origin of the Power, either. You would still see him flying (simular to seeing a hole in the wall, or a dead body) but you would have no idea what the SFX was, and thus, you would have no way of using the SFX of the Power against the Hero using Flight.

 

If a Hero has Fully Invisible on Flight, he could fly around all stealthy like, as if he wasn't using Flight at all. No cracks of rolling thunder... no nimbus of flashing electricity... no register of electrical activity on the Tri-corder. Whether or not this is a big deal in combat, depends on the creativity of you and your Players.

 

The business of the silencer on the gun, and the location of the shooter is a good argument... but it totally ignores the fact that the Character was hidden in the first place, and remained hidden after using the gun. A character with Invisible SFX on his Flight can be hidden before activating his Flight, and remain hidden afterwards, without the Flight Power giving away his position.

 

If a Character was in a room full of people, pointed an invisible (and silenced) gun at a person, and shot him dead. Everyone in the room, is going to know about it, and they are going to have very good suspicions as to who did the killing.

 

It has more to do with the difference between SFX and a difference which gives an advantage. Should a normal person have to buy IPE on his running because he doesn't leave a glowing energy trail behind him? You can see the person running' date=' you can see Superman flying. Nothing is being hidden, therefore no IPE. [/quote']Also a good question. So what is the special effect of a person running around? Muscles...Bones... nerves... that whole shebang... and this is totally visible to the observer. They see arms and legs moving... they see muscles flexing... they see joints bending.

 

When Superman is flying... what do you see? Nothing. You see his cape flap (which has confused every kid on the planet) ... a lot of times Superman will change the orientation of his posture or arm placement... but do these things really have anything to do with him flying? Not that I know of... I'm pretty sure Superman could fly in the fetal position, with his hands tied behind his back.

 

Can you identify what it is that causes Superman to fly, and counter it somehow... no. All you can do is attack the Flight Power directly somehow. Take the Human Torch, for intance... when he's flying around, you see the flames, you identify the SFX, and you reason that you might be able to stop him from flying if you soaked him down with a fire hose.

 

It isn't just collisions' date=' it's also air movements which can be easily felt when there is movement near you. Have you ever been pulled over on a freeway? You can feel the air wake of every car that goes by.[/quote'] Tough one... except for the fact that the wind blowing off the cars was created by the Effect of the Power of Running through the medium of air in the atmosphere (which is an aspect of the environment), not by the SFX of the internal combustion engine, or the spinning of the tires. You can smell the exhaust. You can hear the engine. You can see the tires spinning. You know if you shoot out the tires, you'll stop the car from running.

 

Wind will always result from moving quickly through the medium of air, irregardless of the SFX. The fact that Superman generates wind when he flies fast, only clues you in to the fact that he exist on the material plane in an atmosphere.

 

The visibility/detectability of the SFX of all Powers (including Flight) can be somewhat important to the story and plot of a game. How important? I have no idea. What should their fractional Advantage cost be... I don't know.

 

The fact that we are even having this discussion is proof that the HERO designers did a poor job of explaining this particular aspect of the system, and failed themselves to be consistent in the rules, probably because they didn't understand the finer points of the concept of SFX... or they just didn't care.