Supervillains and the death penalty

[Kirby]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Out of curiosity, are you trying to find a situation where a foreign entity can enter the US and commit crimes without being given the death penalty? That's what this seems to me. If so, I'd go with espionage or an exfiltration. While these do have severe consequences, if the perpetrator is caught, it *usually* ends up as a long prison sentence until a prisoner exchange comes about.

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

True, although the traditional reward for a failed spy is execution -- normally, execution is deferred because it's in /our/ advantage not to, not because we're feeling kind. (Or because the crimes committed weren't severe enough to qualify as capital.)

[Kirby]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

When a blockade is or is not an act of war is a rather complex matter of international law' date=' yes. I went with the interpretation I did because in the way she described it, shots had already been exchanged, and there was no mention of the blockade being put in place to enforce already lawful sanctions (UN or NATO or otherwise), but was instead a purely arbitrary act as described.[/quote']

Not a problem. I just didn't see "shots fired" until after Capt. Slob. was captured.

[Dominique]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Lower Slobbovia really should have found allies first before attacking on its ownsome, as the correlation of forces against it was extreme. But as I said, I only doubt the wisdom of their actions, not their legality.

 

Here's another question for you, would any of your PCs with a CvK refuse to turn a captured villain over to the authorities if he/she know that they faced death for their crimes? If so, how would your other players handle it? How about the government?

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Here's another question for you' date=' would any of your PCs with a CvK refuse to turn a captured villain over to the authorities if he/she know that they faced death for their crimes? If so, how would your other players handle it? How about the government?[/quote']

 

My most extreme CvK character is Starguard(1), and even she'd hand the guy over. Her only alternative is to defy the law and go renegade, and she's not going to do that.(2)

 

Her teammates would... actually, she's the only person on the team who'd even hesitate, as she's the only Total CvK on it. (The rest of her team goes from 'Strong' on down to 'No CvK at all') They'd be supportive of her angst and regret, though... they like her, and she's the group conscience anyway.

 

The government? As is proper, the government would (correction) not give a damn -- the law is not /supposed/ to brake and swerve just to spare the purely emotional sentiment of an individual.

 

 

 

 

 

 

(1) I don't think it can /get/ more extreme than "Configuring your VPP to put Usable Against Others resistant defenses on the /enemy/, during the middle of a battle, to keep your teammate's explosion attack from doing BODY to them, and only letting the STUN through.' Starguard's /done/ that.

 

(2) Her CvK might be Total, but so are the relevant psych lims that control how law-abiding she is.

[Kirby]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Here's another question for you' date=' would any of your PCs with a CvK refuse to turn a captured villain over to the authorities if he/she know that they faced death for their crimes?[/quote']

Yes. Though, the only PC I've had with a CvK that big was a D&D priest. But his teammates killed.

[assault]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Here's another question for you' date=' would any of your PCs with a CvK refuse to turn a captured villain over to the authorities if he/she know that they faced death for their crimes? If so, how would your other players handle it? How about the government?[/quote']

 

Assault might refuse, although the decision wouldn't have much to do with his CvK.

 

The government in question would, no doubt, add themselves to the already long list of governments who don't like Assault. Of course, we have to ask what Assault was doing in that particular country in the first place.

[gewing]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

In battle, yes. (And all except one of my characters -- the absolute total CvK saintlike semi-pacifist one -- would use lethal force in a war, especially with cities being nuked by the bad guys.)

 

But cold-blooded slaughter of POWs... no. That's not even excusable as an act of war. Not unless it really /is/ Xenovores.

 

 

Remember the constant arguments about whether massive attacks on civilians are war crimes?

 

If they nuke cities deliberately, particularly in surprise attacks, etc, I suspect even the ICJ would sentence them to death. If it could.

[gewing]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Let me stir the pot just a little bit more. How about this one. What about a super being that was acting as a state sponsored agent. Let’s just say the US had placed an embargo against Lower Slobovia, and as retaliation they sent their one and only superhero hero. Capt. Slobovia, to strike against the U.S.

 

Since the Capt. has no beef with the average Joe, he chooses to attack a US military installation, and will continue attacking government targets until all sanctions against his country are lifted.

 

During the course of battle, several US military personnel, and law enforcement officers are killed, before our heroes can subdue Slobovia. The DOJ asks for the death penalty, in what they clearly see as a case of international terrorism, and a blatant and un-provoked attack against federal law enforcement officials and US military personnel.

 

But, at his trial, Capt. Slobovia claims that he was a soldier captured on the battlefield engaged in an ongoing conflict. He states that the U.S. initiated the war by placing a series of illegal sanctions on his nation, and as a result people are starving to death, children go hungry, and medicine does not reach the sick.

 

How would you handle that one (and anyone that knows me knows that this is just the type of situation I'm good for throwing PCs into).

 

 

If there was no declaration of war, and/or he is not in a recognizable uniform, he would probably come under the category of Terrorist/saboteur/spy. Then he dies unless there is a reason to think about exchanging him. Unlikely in those circumstances, imo.

[gewing]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

In my campagine most death penalty crimes have been abolished (it's my world after all). In the United states' date=' the two exceptions are (1) treason and (2) killing or causing the death of an on-duty firefighter, paramedic, or law enforcemant agent (including supers with police powers) during the commission of an act of terrorism or other felony.[/quote']

 

 

While I understand the reasoning for (2), doesn't it effectively say that their lives are more valuable than anyone elses? So They can blow up a kindergarten during class and get life, but if an on duty police officer was in the building, they get executed?

 

Sometimes I don't know what is the right way to look at things.

[gewing]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

I agree with you on all but one point. It’s when you say that Slobovia made the first strike. When the US places a complete embargo against another county, it involves us undertaking a number hostile actions, that many consider acts of war.

 

The US military will form a, land, naval and air blockade preventing goods from reaching that nation’s air, land, and sea ports, They will forcibly board ships trying to run that blockade, and turn back any aircraft trying to enter it’s airspace. They will search any vehicles trying to enter the county by land, and many times they will fire on anyone who resists their efforts to stop them. So it’s possible that from The Slobovian’s point of view, they were already at war, and were just defending themselves.

 

 

But if they Didn't DECLARE it a war, and I didn't see a specific statement of that in the post, I suspect International law would consider them to have acted as terrorists.

 

 

OTOH, hmmmm must ruminate.

[Ken Solo]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Where do non national soldiers stand in international law?

Say DR. Destroyer and his army of followers and hired mercenaries just spent two weeks performing a massive military land grab of the southern end of South America. He has claimed as the new country of "Zerstoia" land that belongs to both Chile and Argentina. Captured soldiers wear the colors of Dr. D, and only act to put down any military resistance (any citizens that do not relocate are assumed as new citizens of Zerstoia) but are not from a definable nation or state. When UNTIL sweeps in (with super hero help) and pushes back DR. Ds troops, where are the POWs taken?

There are probably many more ramifications to this scenario I have not yet thought of, what would they be?

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

But if they Didn't DECLARE it a war' date=' and I didn't see a specific statement of that in the post, I suspect International law would consider them to have acted as terrorists.[/quote']

 

Under international law, you don't need to issue an official declaration of war to be having one.

 

Captain Slobbovia's attack would be itself considered an act of war, and the beginning of a state of armed conflict between the US and Lower Slobbovia.

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Where do non national soldiers stand in international law?

 

IIRC, mercenaries in the employ of nations are -- if fighting as regular, readily identifiable forces vs. military targets -- considered to be armed combatants in the service of their employing nation, for the term of the contract.

 

If they're operating out of uniform, performing war crimes, etc, etc., then they're illegal combatants and about to get ritually crucified.

 

And mercenaries in private employ don't fall under the Geneva Conventions at all, as those cover only armed conflict between nation-states.

[Mister E]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

This is a matter of debate for NGD Threads.

 

I think we should focus more on what people are doing in their campaign worlds.

[Dominique]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Hmmmmm.....I just thought of something for a plot seed. Villain X (use whoever fits the bill in your campaign) is scheduled to be executed in 72 hours. He requests to see one of your characters. Once your character arrives, he tells your character that although he's commited many crimes in his lifetime, he didn't commit the murder he was convicted of, he's being framed, and asks your character to help prove he's innocent.

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Facepalm, and ask him why the hell he didn't call /last/ year.

 

Seriously, if you know you're being framed, the time to speak up is as early in the appeals process as possible, not T minus 72 and counting.

 

However, this contingency (or a very similar one) was already covered, in WWYCD #83:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21156

[MitchellS]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Supervillains can't get the death penalty because if you kill them they can't come back for revenge 15 times [and then you need to write up all new villians, and that takes too long!].

[Dominique]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Facepalm, and ask him why the hell he didn't call /last/ year.

 

Seriously, if you know you're being framed, the time to speak up is as early in the appeals process as possible, not T minus 72 and counting.

 

I worked as a Corrections Officer and then and Jail Officer for seven years, and I heared "I dind't do ot", or "The cops set me up", blah, blah, blah every day of the week. So it's not unusual for guys to swear they didn't do until the day they leave, die, or win an appeal.

 

However, this contingency (or a very similar one) was already covered, in WWYCD #83:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21156.

 

Oooops.....I missed that, gotta start reading all those WWYCD threads.

[Dominique]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Supervillains can't get the death penalty because if you kill them they can't come back for revenge 15 times [and then you need to write up all new villians' date= and that takes too long!].

 

Sure thay can, and if your charcter didn't have a hunted before.....

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

I worked as a Corrections Officer and then and Jail Officer for seven years' date=' and I heared "I dind't do ot", or "The cops set me up", blah, blah, blah every day of the week. So it's not unusual for guys to swear they didn't do until the day they leave, die, or win an appeal.[/quote']

 

Exactly. So why did this mook wait until T-minus-72 to try it on me? Does he think I'm the Flash or something? He should have tried back around T-minus-8,760 or something.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Then you have no sense of drama. One thing to remember is that you are trying to portray a brain damaged idiot. The "If I were the Hero or If I were the Evil Mastermidnd" lists are bad.

 

If to advance the plot you have to be a whitless idiot then you play a witless idiot. Batman lets the Joker go because he is supposed to, same goes for you and your characters. IF you don't there is no drama.

 

Hawksmoor

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

I much prefer the "Die Hard" school of drama, where everybody in the plot can act with reasonable intelligence and you /still/ get a good story.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Or the Scott Evil version?

 

Or the Authority version?

 

I maintain that if playing *your* character the way *you* think he should be played is *destroying* the game for others (the GM is included in this) then just perhaps *you* are playing the character wrong.

 

Be messy. Make Mistakes. The more mixed things up are the better the solution!

 

Hawksmoor

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Or the Scott Evil version?

 

Or the Authority version?

 

I maintain that if playing *your* character the way *you* think he should be played is *destroying* the game for others (the GM is included in this) then just perhaps *you* are playing the character wrong.

 

... melodramatic much?

 

No, seriously. Now I'm 'destroying the game' because I want my villains to have an average IQ higher than a brick's? What game? This thread? There ain't no game in this thread, it's a WWYCD... and one that was already done before, to boot. My own games? Who says they're "destroyed"?

 

I mention one opinion different from yours and the next thing you know, I'm the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse. Sheesh, talk about overwrought.

 

For the record, my Aegis game is on hiatus for reasons unrelated to player enjoyment (specifically, scheduling issues and consequent attendance problems). While it was going on, it was noted for its villain plans that /did/ read the Evil Overlord list, and also noted for a high degree of player enjoyment.

 

I dunno about you, but I run for an experienced group of players who are also, with few exceptions, longtime comics fans. They have long since gotten tired of the standard Idiot Plots (defined as "a plot that only works if characters arbitrarily act like idiots"). They want something logically consistent and well thought-out.

 

I never quite get the meme that "comic book plot" must always equal "stupid".