Supervillains and the death penalty

[Mister E]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Because it's possible you're arguing over a point of agreement.

Touché.

 

I will say this, though, my knowledge of the LotR has improved. And Chuckg has made some very interesting and insightful arguments in favor of not letting a GM have a villain on death row beg a hero to save his life because he's innocent. (Certainly not with only 72 hours left to live).

 

The truth is, this could have been a whole new Thread called, "Suspension of Disbelief vs. Campaign Verisimilitude." It's a fascinating topic, and I enjoying seeing the two separate points of view.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

The truth is' date=' this could have been a whole new Thread called, "Suspension of Disbelief vs. Campaign Verisimilitude." It's a fascinating topic, and I enjoying seeing the two separate points of view.[/quote']

 

A lot of the question of our "Prisoner on Death Row" question comes down to what that prisoner has been doeing for the past week/month/year/whatever. Presumably, eapeals have ben mounted and failed, and he has become more and more desparate. With 72 hours to go, he's clutching at the final straws - "I know he put me in here dozens of times, but maybe, just maybe, that devotion to "Justice" he claims is real. What have I got to lose?"

 

As opposed to "I really should call SuperDude and beg him to save ,my life. Oh well, there's still a whole week left. No sense rushing things."

 

It also bears noting that the pace of getting these poor framed souls to the electric chair in heroic fiction is a lot faster than reality will supprt.

 

To the larger issue, a lot comes down to how willing you are to criticize the GM and/or derail the game, commonly over pretty minor issues. For me, there are some things a character just won't do (or refrain from doing), and that may sometimes hamper a plot. However, in general, as a player, I'll look for a way to advance the plot, not derail it. And the more it's my character whose approach is derailing the plot, the more I see a responsibility to fix it.

 

There may be some occasion for comments such as "funny that this didn't happen", but sometimes those "things that didn't happen" benefit us because the GM doesn't put the magic bullet through what we tought was a brilliant plan on our own part(s). DOn't forget there's some quid pro quo out there.

 

A lot of this comes down to gaming style. Some games are very focused on collaborative storytelling, and you'll see a lot of effort in such games to keep the story on the rails, even if we're switching thetracks. Others are very much about competition between players and/pr players and GM. In these cases, derailing the plot is very much pursued, as it somehow means "winning", even if it also means not playing for a month or two as the GM goes back to the drawing board to create a brand-new storyline to replace the several weeks of adventures that a refusal to take the "plot hook", or complete derailment of the plotline, has rendered useless. Just as often, we go back to the drawing board because the GM "wins", and the heroes are defeated utterly, or dead.

 

Commonly, in games featuring a significant element of collaborative storytelling especially, when the heroes fail, they wake up imprisoned/in a deathtrap/what have you, and they get a second chance. That's not always a planned plot point - it's just as often GM largesse (whether in building the safety valve in the first place, or incorporating it later when the players blow it). The GM should be cut some slack as well.

 

In a "GM vs Players" game, the other extreme, hey, you lost - the master villain has his minions slit your throats and toss you out of his secret hideaway for the buzzards. I look forward to seeing all your new characters for next week's game.

[Mentor]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

In our campaign, support for the death penalty is dependent on the concept of the characters involved and the nations in which the adventure takes place.

 

Cyberknight: US Air Force fighter pilot/billionaire scientist/power armor superhero knows that the death of his oponent is a possible, even likely outcome of his encounters, but tones down his attacks against normals. He is quite comfortable with the murderous villains being executed if sentenced by a democratic government and not if the jury/tribunal/judge so decides.

 

Prodigy: Immortal former Templar/secret society Mentalist involved in numerous Crusades and wars until he decided that there must be a better way. He completely renounced killing and will even go so far as to advocate against execution of captured criminals. He has no problem, however, with performing permanent psychic surgery rendering the criminal unable to execute the evil thoughts percoltaing in their sick minds. This method creeps some people out worse than execution.

 

Our campaign has its multinational super prison located on an old RAF base on the Isle of Mann, which being on UK territoty, has no execution.

[Ken Solo]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Supervillains can't get the death penalty because if you kill them they can't come back for revenge 15 times [and then you need to write up all new villians' date= and that takes too long!].

This is a problem? For the most part all I do is photocopy the character sheets of villians and NPC heroes published in HERO Games products. This alone gives me a villian population of more than 2000 characters. (I think I'll get into the folders and take a census this weekend)

On the other hand, recuring villians the players can develop a good grudge with are the best!

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Thanks Whamme^2 Sometimes I think that kids are smarter south of the Equator.

 

Yah know Chuck there is a difference between 'deliberately blowing the shot' and 'not taking the shot at all'. That is the difference between derailing a plot and not derailing a plot. We commonly hear about Players that steadfastly refuse to quit chasing a villian...we also hear about GMs that refuse to let any villian be captured. There is a middle ground to be had. To find it Players and GMs have to work hard to find it in the context of the game. So the Batman tells Robin that the Joker will be back, now we have to get his Victim to the ICU for recovery. Robin says I'll do it, you go after him. To which the Batman must say "No, we both have to do it, besides Joker can run but he cannot hide...his madness won't allow it."

 

How is that stupid? Yes it is a tactical mistake, a mistake that is very Silver age/Bronze age, and is thus not a mistake but a story driven decision.

 

Hawksmoor

[incrdbil]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

OK' date=' another thread here got me thinking about this. When would a supervillain rate the death penalty in your campaingn?[/quote']

 

Well, whenever they committed crimes that would get a normal person a death sentence, that would work for me.

 

I can see some special terminate on sight special instances fore villlains whose very existance is a threat to humanity.

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

> Yah know Chuck there is a difference between 'deliberately blowing the

> shot' and 'not taking the shot at all'.

 

No there isn't. Six of one, half dozen of the other -- you're arguing that players should deliberately play dumb so that DMs don't have to work hard. (Hint: if you don't want your players to pursue your villain, then think up a credible escape plan. Don't complain that the players are actually pursuing the bad guy in a highly motivated fashion -- what, you /want/ unmotivated players?)

 

No.

[gewing]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

In our campaign, support for the death penalty is dependent on the concept of the characters involved and the nations in which the adventure takes place.

 

Cyberknight: US Air Force fighter pilot/billionaire scientist/power armor superhero knows that the death of his oponent is a possible, even likely outcome of his encounters, but tones down his attacks against normals. He is quite comfortable with the murderous villains being executed if sentenced by a democratic government and not if the jury/tribunal/judge so decides.

 

Prodigy: Immortal former Templar/secret society Mentalist involved in numerous Crusades and wars until he decided that there must be a better way. He completely renounced killing and will even go so far as to advocate against execution of captured criminals. He has no problem, however, with performing permanent psychic surgery rendering the criminal unable to execute the evil thoughts percoltaing in their sick minds. This method creeps some people out worse than execution.

 

Our campaign has its multinational super prison located on an old RAF base on the Isle of Mann, which being on UK territoty, has no execution.

 

 

 

YES IT DOES!

[Metaphysician]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

This is a problem? For the most part all I do is photocopy the character sheets of villians and NPC heroes published in HERO Games products. This alone gives me a villian population of more than 2000 characters. (I think I'll get into the folders and take a census this weekend)

On the other hand, recuring villians the players can develop a good grudge with are the best!

 

Not to mention, just because a foe dies, doesn't mean they are gone forever. . .

 

Granted, I would use literal resurrections sparingly, but then again, I would use jailbreaks sparingly for major foes, too.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Well, whenever they committed crimes that would get a normal person a death sentence, that would work for me.

 

I can see some special terminate on sight special instances fore villlains whose very existance is a threat to humanity.

 

In a related sense, there's also villains no one pursues in a crimalistic "attempt to arrest" sense. Megavillains like Dr Destroyer and Takofanes would probably be treated not as criminals breaking laws, but enemy "nations" launching a military attack on your society. Hence, there isn't a huge amount of worry about whether they are death penalty eligible or not, since it isn't expected they would *survive* a successful takedown.

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

> Yah know Chuck there is a difference between 'deliberately blowing the

> shot' and 'not taking the shot at all'.

 

No there isn't. Six of one, half dozen of the other -- you're arguing that players should deliberately play dumb so that DMs don't have to work hard. (Hint: if you don't want your players to pursue your villain, then think up a credible escape plan. Don't complain that the players are actually pursuing the bad guy in a highly motivated fashion -- what, you /want/ unmotivated players?)

 

No.

 

No, I am stating catagorically, without exception, one hundred percent of the time, that role playing games are a consentual collaborative endeavor. It is the job and responsibility of all parties to contribute to the success of the shared endeavor. It really doesn't go much further than that.

 

In that context a certain contract is made. One of the rules is not to disrupt the game. I only point out that some actions disrupt the game. In the context of this thread it is questioning the idea of the current plot as a reasonable game. So the villian says 'save me in 72 hours', all it is a dramatic storytelling device, having a character refuse to play along is disruptive to the game.

 

"Nerfing a shot vs. Not taking the shot at all."

 

Hawksmoor

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Apparently, the post I wrote yesterday about how this thread is not the game, but /before/ the game, and is therefore the best time for a prospective DM to hear about the plot holes in his scenario, precisely because they don't disrupt the game then...

 

... went entirely ignored by you.

 

I have no time to speak to someone who is so dedicated to making his own point at my expense that he spares no attention to notice a point I'm trying to make at no one's expense.

 

Edit -- heck with it. Ignore List. Hopefully it will help me break the temptation to reply to you again.

[Kirby]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

[Chuckg]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

They actually have dead horse emoticions now? Neat.

[assault]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Supervillains can't get the death penalty because if you kill them they can't come back for revenge 15 times [and then you need to write up all new villians' date= and that takes too long!].

 

No. The real reason supervillains don't get the death penalty is that everyone knows what happens when you try to execute them... And it only gets worse if you succeed.

[Alverant]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

I just read this thread so I'm going to be covering a lot of subjects.

 

First I disagree with the notion of treating supers just like normal people or real world people. In the real world we can put dogs and dangerous animals to death for biting (not killing) people. So what happens when the supervillain IS a mad dog with animal intelligence or even human intelligence (for example Black Fang in Arcane Adverseries)? You can take a gun away from a psycho killer, but it's a lot harder to take away Genoside's eyebeams. Normally it's much easier to render a normal human harmless than a supervillain. It can be argued that some supervillains need to be "put down" because they are basically dangerous animals.

 

Some of the opposition to the death penalty is based on the notion of rehabilitation. However the Champions Universe deals with villains who are inherently or irredeamable evil (the Monster, demons, Dr.Destroyer, Mechanon) making rehabilitation impossible. How would the law deal with someone who has killed casually and is powerful enough to break out of prison and continue to kill casually? This brings up the notion of permenent possession. One of the servants of the Kings of Edom is a conjoined twin who has a second brain which is twisted, evil, and violent while the other is more passive. If this person was captured, the only way to execute the evil twin was to kill the not-so-evil twin as well. In my compaign we had to shoot an ally in the head because he was infected with a brain parisite and tried to kill us. If he was captured and there was no way to heal the damage, what happens?

 

As for how the law deals with heroes who kill, I would have to say it depends on who the heroes kill. Killing Viper agents is pretty different than killing a member of Eurostar. The killing of a supervillain is probably more tollerated than a normal guy with a ray gun, even if it is someone like Lazer.

 

Now for a twist, and I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet, is in a world with telepaths why wouldn't the courts appoint mind readers to see if the defendant is telling the truth or regrets their actions? Due to numbers it would be used in special cases and would be held to the same neutrality standards as judges and juries. I'm picturing a tribunal of telepaths voting on the decision. (One telepath can make a mistake, an even number can result in a tie and the limited number of telepaths make 5 or more impractical.) Of course this leads to new problems like finding out the defendant is innocent of the murder he is accused of, but is guilty of a dozen others he hasn't been charged with. Would allowing a mind probe mean giving up your right to self-incrimination?

 

I should also bring up HOW some supervillains would be executed. If you don't need to breath and immune to poison then gas chamber and lethel injections and hanging are out. Make your skin supertough and firing squad and electrotion become impractical. I can almost see the Department of Corrections having an execution chamber on a live volcano or having a liason with the military R&D for testing nukes.

[incrdbil]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

 

I should also bring up HOW some supervillains would be executed. If you don't need to breath and immune to poison then gas chamber and lethel injections and hanging are out. Make your skin supertough and firing squad and electrotion become impractical. I can almost see the Department of Corrections having an execution chamber on a live volcano or having a liason with the military R&D for testing nukes.

 

Hmm, on a related note, a challenge to executing supervillains. Invariably, the certain death methodds would change their powers, grant them new ones, and make them even more dangerous.

 

It's easier to kill off cockroaches.

[Alverant]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Hmm' date=' on a related note, a challenge to executing supervillains. Invariably, the certain death methodds would change their powers, grant them new ones, and make them even more dangerous.[/quote']

 

Perhaps, but what are the odds? I think the two big reasons why comic book heroes don't kill the enemies (even when they know their enemies will kill more innocent people) is 1) they are better than the ones they fight and 2) plot convenience so they can bring back the villain again and again. If the GM feels a villain has run his course, then have the execution method work. If not, have him escape or give the execution method change him/her. Having the execution method change the powers isn't that different from having the villain escape and go on a vengence rampage.

 

Possible news soundbite: "Two days ago the supervillain, 'The Crimson Killer' was executed via nuclear test. Today we learn the detonation appears to have changed him into a living cloud of radiation. This cloud is now making its way to the headquarters of the superhero group which sent him to death row in the first place."

[Dominique]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

As I posted before, if they didn't have a Hunted before, they will now.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Supervillains and the death penalty

 

Perhaps' date=' but what are the odds? I think the two big reasons why comic book heroes don't kill the enemies (even when they know their enemies will kill more innocent people) is 1) they are better than the ones they fight and 2) plot convenience so they can bring back the villain again and again. [/quote']

 

#2 saved the Joker in his very first apearance. The writer had his death scene written in, but the Editor realized this was too good a character to be relegated to a one shot appearance.