Brass knuckles and high strength characters

[Greg]

I looked around for similar questions, but couldn't find anything. In my Fantasy HERO campaign I have a STR 30 brawler. He's generally just been swinging his giant mitts, but was looking for a way that he could punch for a little more damage. Dark Champions list brass knuckles as 2D6N STR Min 8(or so) so by normal doubling rules that only brings them up to 4D6N max. For Joe Average that's fine, but at STR 20 and up you've broken even despite the fact you're strapping metal to your hands. I'm not necessarily looking to house rule just for this one thing, but am I missing something with the way normal damage adds to STR? I've only played standard heroic games, but it looks like in a super game you'd just add +2D6 to your STR damage, but that's because you're paying points for the weapon. Or to go another direction, is there a balanced way to build a giant pair of brass knuckles/gauntlets that just do more damage due to a higher str minimum? I suppose this line of questions applies to any fairly small weapon that loses it's effectiveness in comparison to a strong fighter's bare hands.

[mikesama]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

I had a similar problem in a martial hero type game where the line "I don't want to kill him, let me break out my nunchaku" came from.

 

So I house ruled that all normal damage weapons had thier damage halved then just added to the damage done by the hero.

[MitchellS]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

The 4d6 is correct. I might suggest that you make the brass knuckles do 1/2d6 killing, so while wearing them your brawler can do 1d6+1 killing. That will make a difference.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

I take all the standard weapons from the charts and allow them to be scaled up by adding 1 DC and +5 Str Min. So a, "large broadsword," for example, does 1 1/2d6 damage but has a Str Min of 17 (that is, if I am remembering correctly about a normal broadsword being 1d6+1 w/ Str Min 12). They can also be scaled down by removing 1 DC and adding -5 Str Min. So (if my above example is correct) a, "small broadsword," would do 1d6 w/ Str Min 7.

 

The size increase does give a higher Base Damage, although it does not otherwise affect the final damage for any given Str. I also tend to increase the Required Hands (if it isn't already 2H) for characters with less, "relative size," than the weapon, and reduce the Required Hands (if it isn't already 1H) for characters with greater, "relative size." In the typical setting, I also make it more difficult to find such weapons (and armor, and equipment, etc.), get them repaired, etc. While a, "small broadsword," might wind up being somewhat equivalent to a normal shortsword, the SFX are different (and there are, "small shortswords," too). The setting effects (such as rarity, etc.) also tend to counterbalance the differences that might unbalance things mechanically.

[Greg]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

Prior to now I've just been giving my player a generic +1d6 so he'd have some benefit to wearing something over his hands. I'm probably going to give him the option to change it to killing damage to simulate spiked gauntlets. Since I know he likes rolling piles of dice and I encourage players to do stuff for fun/in-character versus just for in-game benefit I'll make his brass knuckles 5d6 str min 20 to simulate giant metal plates that wrap around his entire forearms and hands that only the strongest of creatures could wear. That way when he goes into one of his infamous berserk furies then he'll still be able to get a benefit of wearing them. At the same time he could strap some sort of barbed spear into the wrist a la Conan when he fights in the gladiator pits in the first movie. Obviously this is pretty high-fantasy so unrealistic weapons are par for course.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

Or to go another direction, is there a balanced way to build a giant pair of brass knuckles/gauntlets that just do more damage due to a higher str minimum?

 

Deadly Blow +2d6? I think that's 14 pts if you limit it to one weapon, but I don't have FH in front of me to check and see.

 

Alternatly, you could maybe go for something like this:

 

Heavy Handed: +4 with HTH Combat (20 Active Points); Only to Add Damage to Punches (-1), OIF (fistload of opportunity; -1/2) ( 20 AP, 8 RC)

 

this way he can add use 4 CSL's to add +2 DC's to his punches using brass kncukes, a gauntlet or a roll of quart.. er... silver pieces...

[Rapier]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

I looked around for similar questions' date=' but couldn't find anything. In my Fantasy HERO campaign I have a STR 30 brawler. He's generally just been swinging his giant mitts, but was looking for a way that he could punch for a little more damage. Dark Champions list brass knuckles as 2D6N STR Min 8(or so) so by normal doubling rules that only brings them up to 4D6N max. For Joe Average that's fine, but at STR 20 and up you've broken even despite the fact you're strapping metal to your hands. I'm not necessarily looking to house rule just for this one thing, but am I missing something with the way normal damage adds to STR? I've only played standard heroic games, but it looks like in a super game you'd just add +2D6 to your STR damage, but that's because you're paying points for the weapon. Or to go another direction, is there a balanced way to build a giant pair of brass knuckles/gauntlets that just do more damage due to a higher str minimum? I suppose this line of questions applies to any fairly small weapon that loses it's effectiveness in comparison to a strong fighter's bare hands.[/quote']

 

I think part of your problem is mixing genres. DC isn't meant to have people running around (for the most part) with 30 STR. Just make the knuckles +2d6N which would give yon half-ogre an 8d6 punch.

[Greg]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

Bloodstone-

Yeah, there's any number of ways to add more damage by spending points. I was just trying to rationalize a way for a strong guy to benefit from picking up something harder than a (near) human hand in-game.

 

Rapier-

DC is just where I stole the stats for brass knuckles. It doesn't really matter what the weapon is just that any normal damage weapon usually doesn't scale well with strong characters. You're on to something though because anything above 18 or so STR is beyond real life human ability so maybe a 30 STR guy is just a lot denser than brass knuckles or a lead pipe.

 

I'm just going to do what I alluded to above and give my over-the-top player an over-the-top weapon that should scale into the upper strata of strength. Ultimately, I'll just create a "great club" with slightly different SFX.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

Is this brawler human sized or bigger? If the latter, you could just purchase a bigger set of brass knuckles, scaling them up to someone that size, scaling up the damage and therefore allowing for some addition to basic strength damage.

 

If he is human sized, can I just note how impressed I am that you got him to 30 strength . Even then I'm sure he's pretty big and, for a hefty fee, you'll probably find a cunning artificer who can make a set of bknucks that do more than standard damage.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

This is an interesting topic, as in the past I have seen it really polarize a group (keep in mind that he bulk of our games are Heroic instead of supers).

 

A lot of people don't want to let a character simply pick up a weapon he didn't pay points for and add a die or two of damage to his STR. I find it interesting that no one seems to mind that he could pick up a sword, crossbow, or plasma rifle he didn't pay points for and start hacking, poking, and slagging his way across the entire town.

 

Personally, I'd follow the suggestions above that you model it as HA and just let it add a die or two to his damage, though I am also partial to Mitchell's workaroud as well. That one sticks pretty close to rules as written, and doesn't even need the small justification of 'well it just makes sense.' And it will still allow him to bump up his damage a bit, especially against non-res defenses.

 

If it makes it feel more 'balanced,' you can make Gargantua pay more money for his knucks, as they will require much more material and take much longer to custom make. Possibly rule that because they have to be 'so' big to add to his already massive damage that just swinging them will asses a -1 to O or DCV. Whatever it takes to keep it from feeling overpowering.

 

But I'm still good with '+2d6, period.'

 

Let us know what you decide to go with!

 

 

Duke

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

Generally, I set the minimum DCs for all proper (not improvised, inferior, or broken) weapons at 15 Character Points -- 1d6 Killing or 3d6 Normal Damage. This fixes a lot of problems in Heroic games where NCM is a factor.

 

So Brass knuckles will be 3d6N (STR Min. 8), and Spiked Knuckles will be 1d6K (STR Min 8). (The Spiked version would probably cost a bit more money-wise). Wit a STR of ~5, a character using one of these weapons will do a lot more damage than they normally could, but their attacks will be less accurate. With a STR of ~10, a character would normally do 2d6N, but with the knuckles he does 3d6N (or 1d6K), at no penalty. A character with ~15 STR will do 4d6N or 1d6+1K, better than their normal 3d6N bareknuckled. A character with ~20 STR will do 5d6N, or 2d6-1K, better than his normal 4d6N. A character with ~25 STR (past NCM now) will do 6d6N or 2d6K, better than his normal 5d6N. When we get to ~30 STR (which Heroic characters almost never do), the knuckles become obsolete, unless you use the Spiked Knuckles -- still an advantage, since that converts the character's attacks into Killing Damage on a point-for-point basis.

 

And from 30 on, you're so strong, what do you need a pair of knuckles for? Those are for sissy men!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

Here's another idea: allow a weapon to function as an HA by removing, redefining, or reducing (to -0?) the Real Weapon Limitation for weapons you feel are appropriate in this regard.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

This is an interesting topic, as in the past I have seen it really polarize a group (keep in mind that he bulk of our games are Heroic instead of supers).

 

A lot of people don't want to let a character simply pick up a weapon he didn't pay points for and add a die or two of damage to his STR. I find it interesting that no one seems to mind that he could pick up a sword, crossbow, or plasma rifle he didn't pay points for and start hacking, poking, and slagging his way across the entire town.

 

Personally, I'd follow the suggestions above that you model it as HA and just let it add a die or two to his damage, though I am also partial to Mitchell's workaroud as well. That one sticks pretty close to rules as written, and doesn't even need the small justification of 'well it just makes sense.' And it will still allow him to bump up his damage a bit, especially against non-res defenses.

 

If it makes it feel more 'balanced,' you can make Gargantua pay more money for his knucks, as they will require much more material and take much longer to custom make. Possibly rule that because they have to be 'so' big to add to his already massive damage that just swinging them will asses a -1 to O or DCV. Whatever it takes to keep it from feeling overpowering.

 

But I'm still good with '+2d6, period.'

 

Let us know what you decide to go with!

 

 

Duke

 

Heroic games don't have characters paying points for equipment.

 

So, picking up the Pointy Object and using it is not a problem, so's it being broken regularly.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

Heroic games don't have characters paying points for equipment.

 

That was kind of my point, actually. My appologies for any clarity issues.

 

What I've seen in Heroic campaigns is that while the GM has no problem letting Joe Anyobody pick up a 3d6RKA Explosive Autofire grenade launcher, suddenly they choke on the idea of letting a high-strength character get another die or two of punch damage doing the same thing. It's like there's an invisible rule that says once your STR dice exceed a weapon's dice, it is not possible to use a weapon to add to your STR dice. I've always felt that just because you'll likely break it doesn't mean that you shouldn't be allowed to use it. And if you pay enough _money_ for it (I think I may have muddled the discussion through ommision of that word), you ought to be able to have one made that you _can_ use without breaking it.

 

That's all I was commenting on.

 

 

Duke

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

That was kind of my point, actually. My appologies for any clarity issues.

 

What I've seen in Heroic campaigns is that while the GM has no problem letting Joe Anyobody pick up a 3d6RKA Explosive Autofire grenade launcher, suddenly they choke on the idea of letting a high-strength character get another die or two of punch damage doing the same thing. It's like there's an invisible rule that says once your STR dice exceed a weapon's dice, it is not possible to use a weapon to add to your STR dice. I've always felt that just because you'll likely break it doesn't mean that you shouldn't be allowed to use it. And if you pay enough _money_ for it (I think I may have muddled the discussion through ommision of that word), you ought to be able to have one made that you _can_ use without breaking it.

 

That's all I was commenting on.

 

 

Duke

 

As you may have read, I think 3d6N "knuckles" solve this problem up to a STR of around 25+. At around 30, though, only HKA "knuckles" provide any benefit, and at 35+, using the weapons is a detriment (unless you want to convert to Killing Damage).

 

It seems reasonable. After hitting STR 30+, it doesn't matter what your fist is made of; when it impacts, surface tension alone does the same damage as a slab of concrete (think water and belly flops). That'd be my philosophy. I know where you're comng from about the grenade launchers, but we have to keep a bit of realism in there for suspension of disbelief, eh?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

That was kind of my point, actually. My appologies for any clarity issues.

 

What I've seen in Heroic campaigns is that while the GM has no problem letting Joe Anyobody pick up a 3d6RKA Explosive Autofire grenade launcher, suddenly they choke on the idea of letting a high-strength character get another die or two of punch damage doing the same thing. It's like there's an invisible rule that says once your STR dice exceed a weapon's dice, it is not possible to use a weapon to add to your STR dice. I've always felt that just because you'll likely break it doesn't mean that you shouldn't be allowed to use it. And if you pay enough _money_ for it (I think I may have muddled the discussion through ommision of that word), you ought to be able to have one made that you _can_ use without breaking it.

 

That's all I was commenting on.

 

 

Duke

 

aha, ok. no problemo then. Yeah, kinda of wonky what peopel balk at isn't it.

 

I personally always have a autofire explosive grenade launcher stocked in my games Radio Shack's ...(ok, now I'm just being a smar@$$. )

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

aha' date=' ok. no problemo then. Yeah, kinda of wonky what peopel balk at isn't it.[/quote']

Indeed. Again, the misunderstanding was entirely my fault. Sorry.

 

I personally always have a autofire explosive grenade launcher stocked in my games Radio Shack's ...

 

Finally! Something usefull at a Radio Shack! :D

 

 

Duke

[Markdoc]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

I had exactly this problem in an earlier game - there, the character "only" had STR 20, but the net effect was similar: brass knuckles did nothing, and if he pushed his STR, caused him to do LESS damage.

 

Uhhh. Brain hurty!

 

In the end, I house ruled it:

 

1. A weapon cannot do less damage in DC than the STR used or wield it or DEF+BOD (whichever is less)

2. A weapon which is harder than your hand always adds a minimum of 1 DC.

 

This means that if the big brawler picks up a chair or a pool cue and hits someone, odds are he'll smash it in a blow or two, but until then it gives him +1 DC. Brass knucks are solid enough that he can't break them and they add 1 DC.

 

That allows the use of "stuff" without getting too gross.

 

cheers, Mark

[prestidigitator]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

I had exactly this problem in an earlier game - there, the character "only" had STR 20, but the net effect was similar: brass knuckles did nothing, and if he pushed his STR, caused him to do LESS damage.

 

Uhhh. Brain hurty!

 

In the end, I house ruled it:

 

1. A weapon cannot do less damage in DC than the STR used or wield it or DEF+BOD (whichever is less)

2. A weapon which is harder than your hand always adds a minimum of 1 DC.

 

This means that if the big brawler picks up a chair or a pool cue and hits someone, odds are he'll smash it in a blow or two, but until then it gives him +1 DC. Brass knucks are solid enough that he can't break them and they add 1 DC.

 

That allows the use of "stuff" without getting too gross.

Not bad. Not bad at all.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

Beautiful!

 

Rep for elegance!

[gewing]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

This is an interesting topic, as in the past I have seen it really polarize a group (keep in mind that he bulk of our games are Heroic instead of supers).

 

A lot of people don't want to let a character simply pick up a weapon he didn't pay points for and add a die or two of damage to his STR. I find it interesting that no one seems to mind that he could pick up a sword, crossbow, or plasma rifle he didn't pay points for and start hacking, poking, and slagging his way across the entire town.

 

Personally, I'd follow the suggestions above that you model it as HA and just let it add a die or two to his damage, though I am also partial to Mitchell's workaroud as well. That one sticks pretty close to rules as written, and doesn't even need the small justification of 'well it just makes sense.' And it will still allow him to bump up his damage a bit, especially against non-res defenses.

 

If it makes it feel more 'balanced,' you can make Gargantua pay more money for his knucks, as they will require much more material and take much longer to custom make. Possibly rule that because they have to be 'so' big to add to his already massive damage that just swinging them will asses a -1 to O or DCV. Whatever it takes to keep it from feeling overpowering.

 

But I'm still good with '+2d6, period.'

 

Let us know what you decide to go with!

 

 

Duke

 

 

All of this works, imo.

 

One thing you might allow, if you are going to make a for instance 20str min 5d6normal set of massive, reinforced gauntlets is to allow him to either take a little armor, hands and forearms only, or perhaps treat them as a buckler, giving +1 dcv.

 

just a thought.

[gewing]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

I should say this resonates for my.

 

I had a 30 str, 8' tall fantasy character.

 

Weapons could be a pain in the but, getting ones that wouldn't break, or didn't have other problems.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

It's definitely an issue of scale. One thing to remember is that the STR scale doesn't stop at STR 0. Even if the Brass Knuckles have a STR min of 0, compared to the avg human of 10, a STR 30 person would expect STR min 20 brass knuckles, which would add 4d6 to the base dice. I would argue that a STR min of 8 for brass knuckles is a bit high, IMO.

 

The weapon scaling rules presented in EG is one solution, but would add only 2d6 IRRC (each +10 STR is +1d6 for some reason). Still, that would give you a base of 4d6 and a STR min of 28, but that still seems wrong.

 

Brass Knuckles really seem more like a HA because it isn't a weapon in an of itself. I generally do +1d6 HA for impromptu weapons, +2d6 HA for 2H impromptu or really hard 1H weapons (like brass knuckles).

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

It's late on my end, and while it may fall to mind easily after a sleep, right now I am drawing a blank:

 

"EG?"

[ghost-angel]

Re: Brass knuckles and high strength characters

 

It's late on my end, and while it may fall to mind easily after a sleep, right now I am drawing a blank:

 

"EG?"

 

e.g. "For Example"

 

or Extra Greasy if you're ordering onion rings.