Hand Attacks Question

[greypaladin_01]

Ok, I have a few questions about Hand Attacks... I've only been playing Hero for about 10 years now but for some reason Im reading the rules today and just not being able to add 2+2... (hangs head in shame).

 

Ok.. How do you work HTH attacks in with other powers. If you have a speedster character for example, he has a 20 STR so thats 4d6 damage. Lets say I give him the Speedster martial arts from UMA so using a strike from it he will add +2d6 (6d6 damage now). Finally we go to a Speed Tricks Multipower... along with various other abilities in the pool we give him MULTI-HIT and +4d6 HA that simulated a super-speed flurry of punchs. Can you add the MULTI-HIT power in with the martial arts for a total of 10d6?

 

Secondly. There is a martial artist character that has several levels in his martial art attacks. This is allowing him to do 8-10d6 depending on his manuvers. Now the character has a fighting stick that is +3d6 HA. I know that he can use the stick with his martial arts as it is a weapon. Now the character is also studying some mystic abilites that allow him to generate Ki fields around his body for effects. One of them is a +4d6 HA AP. Can the marital artist use this ability with his martial arts? Mechanically it is the same as his weapon but it would lead to having up to a 14d6 AP attack. Also could he use the weapon and the Ki power at the same time? Or would the 2 HA cancel out?

 

I am probably missing something VERY simple here and I realize that but any and ALL help would be appeciated...

[MitchellS]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Ok.. How do you work HTH attacks in with other powers. If you have a speedster character for example' date=' he has a 20 STR so thats 4d6 damage. Lets say I give him the Speedster martial arts from UMA so using a strike from it he will add +2d6 (6d6 damage now). Finally we go to a Speed Tricks Multipower... along with various other abilities in the pool we give him MULTI-HIT and +4d6 HA that simulated a super-speed flurry of punchs. Can you add the MULTI-HIT power in with the martial arts for a total of 10d6?[/quote']

Yes, it all adds together, but you need to remember that extra DC's bought with martial arts do not add to the HA when the HA uses it's own.

 

Secondly. There is a martial artist character that has several levels in his martial art attacks. This is allowing him to do 8-10d6 depending on his manuvers. Now the character has a fighting stick that is +3d6 HA. I know that he can use the stick with his martial arts as it is a weapon. Now the character is also studying some mystic abilites that allow him to generate Ki fields around his body for effects. One of them is a +4d6 HA AP. Can the marital artist use this ability with his martial arts? Mechanically it is the same as his weapon but it would lead to having up to a 14d6 AP attack. Also could he use the weapon and the Ki power at the same time? Or would the 2 HA cancel out?

Let's break down the basics here:

 

20 str = 4d6

MA attack = 2d6

Club = 3d6

Ki attack = 4d6 AP HA

 

Martial arts are not effected by advantages [5Er 407] so the AP on the Ki attack automatically makes the MA AP.

 

Advantaged HA attacks add strength up to their base active point limit [5Er 408] so the 20 str [4d6] can also be AP. So as of right there you are looking at:

 

STR 4d6 + Ki 4d6 AP + MA +2d6 for a total of 10d6 AP.

 

I would rule that the club works like strength in the example, and so you are limited to only adding +4d6 maximum strength to get the AP effect. So no luck with the club as far as AP, but I would allow the character to do a 13d6 attack that is not AP by using strength, martial arts, ki, and club.

[garou]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Rather than start a new thread, I'll piggyback with an HA question of my own:

 

I have a character, let's call him Captain Brick. Captain Brick has a 60 Str, and does 12d6 with an average punch. He has a multipower, however, for several brick tricks and attacks. Among them is a HtH attack, 4d6 with the Double Knockback advantage. When he hits a target with this attack, which of these is correct:

 

1) Target takes normal knockback from the base 12d6 plus double knockback from the 4d6 HA

 

2) Target takes double knockback from the entire 16d6

 

3) Neither of the above - this is an illegal build.

[Edsel]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

The answer is 3. Because the advantage can only be applied freely to the STR as long as the Strength's unmodified Active Cost is equal to or less than the unmodified Active Point cost of the HA. The unmodified Active Point cost of the 4d6 HA is 20 points, thus he could only apply the double knockback to 20 points of STR.

 

I would allow the character to use only 20 STR with the attack and do an 8d6 double knockback attack or if he wanted to use all his STR he could do a 16d6 attack but he could not use the double knockback advantage with any of it.

 

However I believe that the letter of the rules would not allow you to be this flexable. You'd either have to buy the double KB advantage for the full STR or buy no double KB advantage for the HA.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

If you wanted the added complexity, and had different colored dice to roll for the STR and the HA, you could determine Knockback by adding up the BODY damage from the HA, doubling it, then adding the STR BODY damage and proceeding as normal.

 

It would take a little extra time, though, and many people seem to be unhappy with the length of Hero combats as is.

[greypaladin_01]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Thanks for the help on my question! And anyone else with a HA question feel free to use this thread as well.

[MitchellS]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

I think everyone can agree that adding damage is really too complicated within the game. There should just be one simple rule for everything: The power with the advantage can never do more than double no matter what. So if you have +4d6 AP then the most it can ever do AP is 8d6, no matter if it comes from strength, marial arts, or whatever. Also the same whether it's killing attack or HTH attack. One simple rule for everything.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

I think everyone can agree that adding damage is really too complicated within the game. There should just be one simple rule for everything: The power with the advantage can never do more than double no matter what. So if you have +4d6 AP then the most it can ever do AP is 8d6' date=' no matter if it comes from strength, marial arts, or whatever. Also the same whether it's killing attack or HTH attack. One simple rule for everything.[/quote']

This is a good idea, one I've been kicking around to do as well.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Just to toss out ideas here for the speedster and his flurry of flying fists----

 

why not get reall gross and put Autofire on your STR? Or your Martial Strike?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Rather than start a new thread, I'll piggyback with an HA question of my own:

 

I have a character, let's call him Captain Brick. Captain Brick has a 60 Str, and does 12d6 with an average punch. He has a multipower, however, for several brick tricks and attacks. Among them is a HtH attack, 4d6 with the Double Knockback advantage. When he hits a target with this attack, which of these is correct:

 

1) Target takes normal knockback from the base 12d6 plus double knockback from the 4d6 HA

 

2) Target takes double knockback from the entire 16d6

 

3) Neither of the above - this is an illegal build.

 

None of the above

 

He has a choice of doing 16d6 normal or 8d6 double KB - you can only add as many dice from strength as you have in HA and retain the advantages, so, as built it is a pointless slot - you'd always go for the 16d6 normal.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Just to toss out ideas here for the speedster and his flurry of flying fists----

 

why not get reall gross and put Autofire on your STR? Or your Martial Strike?

 

Becasue any sensible GM would slap you silly?

[Zed-F]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

He has a choice of doing 16d6 normal or 8d6 double KB - you can only add as many dice from strength as you have in HA and retain the advantages, so, as built it is a pointless slot - you'd always go for the 16d6 normal.

True, you would want to make the slot larger than 4d6 double KB for it to be meaningful when combined with a 60 STR. Also, if the intent is to make a double KB attack, you might want to house-rule that he must only use enough STR to double the base dice of the attack and retain the advantage, and disallow the 'drop the advantage and just add the base HA dice' in that instance.

 

A more useful way to build it while staying somewhere around 60 AP attacs might be something like:

STR 40

MP slot 1: 4d6 HA 0 END

MP slot 2: 4d6 HA AP

MP slot 3: 4d6 HA Explosive Cone (shockwave)

MP slot 4: 4d6 HA Double KB

 

Becasue any sensible GM would slap you silly?

Why? Wouldn't that depend on what his STR was and how much damage he could put out relative to the rest of the characters in the game? A speedster autofiring a lot of individually low-damage punches is very in-genre.

 

Putting autofire as a naked advantage on your STR is quite legal. Building a custom martial maneuver with autofire built in is also legal, according to the rules presented in UMA. My personal preference for how to build this is as an autofire hand attack in a multipower of speedster tricks.

[TaxiMan]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

OK, I have 5ER but am lazy / this is tough to figure for me (your choice). If I have

 

Martial Arts Maneuver +2d6

Martial Arts Extra DC +4DC

STR 20

 

That's clearly a 4d6 (STR) + 2d6 (maneuver) + 4d6 (extra DC) attack.

 

What happens if I have a WF with something? Is it just flavor? If it's defined as +2d6HA, what do I get? How about +10d6HA?

 

I thought the base damage for a martial maneuver was STR + bonus +DC, and you can't more than double that. In the example above, that would be +12d6HA!!

 

I also thought you couldn't more than double a HA attack?

 

I've read a lot about this & seen some good summary sheets that people put a lot of effort into. I don't know why this doesn't stick with me, except it's too complicated.

[Zed-F]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

OK, I have 5ER but am lazy / this is tough to figure for me (your choice). If I have

 

Martial Arts Maneuver +2d6

Martial Arts Extra DC +4DC

STR 20

 

That's clearly a 4d6 (STR) + 2d6 (maneuver) + 4d6 (extra DC) attack.

 

What happens if I have a WF with something? Is it just flavor? If it's defined as +2d6HA, what do I get? How about +10d6HA?

Assuming that you have the correct weapon element for your martial art, since there are no advantaged HAs to deal with here, it all adds up linearly in this example. A 2d6 weapon will give you 12d6, a 10d6 weapon will give you 20d6.

 

I thought the base damage for a martial maneuver was STR + bonus +DC, and you can't more than double that. In the example above, that would be +12d6HA!!

 

I also thought you couldn't more than double a HA attack?

4d6 STR + 2d6 maneuver + 4d6 DCs + 10d6 weapon = 20d6.

The rules for doubling weapon damage really only apply to two things:

- Killing attacks, and

- applying STR (but not martial arts) to advantaged hand attacks.

Applying a combination of STR, martial maneuvers, and DCs will let you far more than double a hand attack's damage, even if it's an advantaged hand attack, according to the rules as written.

 

I've read a lot about this & seen some good summary sheets that people put a lot of effort into. I don't know why this doesn't stick with me, except it's too complicated.

Because it is confusing. I regard it as one of the worst-written and explained part of the rules, as of FREd. HKAs and HAs don't obey the same rules for doubling, STR and martial arts don't obey the same rules when it comes to advantaged attacks, STR and martial arts don't obey the same rules for the rate at which DCs are added to killing attacks, and so on. There is little obvious rhyme or reason to why the rules work as they do in this case; they are not elegant. I don't have 5ER, so it's possible they may have cleaned up the explanation there.

[garou]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

None of the above

 

He has a choice of doing 16d6 normal or 8d6 double KB - you can only add as many dice from strength as you have in HA and retain the advantages, so, as built it is a pointless slot - you'd always go for the 16d6 normal.

Okay. this leads to Q2:

 

Captain Brick again is allowed to have naked power modifiers in the MP (as per several examples from Ultimate Brick). Could I link the HA 4d6 Double KB to a Double KB naked modifier for the Strength (put in the MP)? I'd have to use both together, and I probably couldn't use the full strength (MP isn't big enough), but it should give me more than 8d6 of double KB.

 

(I've never used linke powers before, and don't have my copy of the 5th ed on me to check on this)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

If both powers are in the Brick MP then no. Two slots of a MP cannot be linked or affect each other.

 

A Power outside a MP may only affect a slot inside a MP with GMs Permission. Generally no, you can't link a power outside a Framework to a power inside a Framework.

 

The rules are a bit obtuste, but not overly complex:

 

HA can be thought of as STR, Only for Damage. With that in mind +Basic HA Is just adding More STR to an attack.

 

The trick comes in with Advantaged HA, which follows the KA Rule of Normal STR May do no more than Double It. (4D6 HA with Armor Peircing cannot be brought up higher than 8D6 with STR).

[Zed-F]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Well, I am pretty sure that you CAN in fact buy a naked advantage on your base STR, and then take a HA with the same advantage, and that the effects will stack.

 

Remember that (a) naked advantages are special powers and not normally allowed in power frameworks but are instead bought separately outside the power framework, and that ( the naked advantage is not modifiying the HA slot in the power framework, it's modifying the base STR. So you wind up with two separate things that happen to add together.

 

STR 40

AP (+1/2) on up to 40 STR

MP Slot: 4d6 HA, AP (+1/2)

 

Here, instead of only adding 20 STR to the HA to create a 8d6 AP HA, we can add the full 40 STR, thereby winding up with a 12d6 AP HA. Mind you, you're paying a pretty hefty price on the naked advantage to be able to accomplish said objective. It might be more cost effective to buy a slightly larger brick tricks multipower able to hold a 6d6 AP HA instead.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Why? Wouldn't that depend on what his STR was and how much damage he could put out relative to the rest of the characters in the game? A speedster autofiring a lot of individually low-damage punches is very in-genre.

 

Putting autofire as a naked advantage on your STR is quite legal. Building a custom martial maneuver with autofire built in is also legal, according to the rules presented in UMA. My personal preference for how to build this is as an autofire hand attack in a multipower of speedster tricks.

 

Well first of all he'd be slapping you about 100 times....

 

....but seriously folks, IMO, naked advantages are overused. If you want to autofire your strength I'd make you buy an advantaged HA for half of it.

 

60 STR = 30 points 'naked autofire'*

 

30 points of HA with autofire = 30 points

 

Same effect, same cost, but you are actually using the power designed to do it. Sometimes you have no real choice but to use a naked advantage, but the only reason for NEEDING it is the rule that says you have to use your advantages with the power - you can't turn them off. Now we have naked advantages officially recognised, that rule seems pretty pointless.

 

Here's a thought. Maybe I can buy my next damage shield as a naked advantage....

 

 

 

 

*kinky!

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Well, I think I'll step in for a moment here and probably get myself killed...

 

[momentary sidestep...]

Per the book, purchasing Advantages and Limitations for your Base Characterisitcs 1) Is not a Naked Advantage, and 2) Does not turn them into a 'Power'.

 

You simply have Advantaged Strength. the side effect is, like any other advantage, you've ALWAYS got that Advantage on it.

[/momentary sidesteop...]

 

Naked Advantages are not overused anymore than Energy Blast is. It is a very useful mechanic to simulate a number of different things. Like say Armor Peircing For STR - you're able to spot structural weaknesses, vulnerable points and you now how to his juuust right to really lay a wallop down.

 

This is the single best thing I think ever happened to Hero.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Well, I think I'll step in for a moment here and probably get myself killed...

 

[momentary sidestep...]

Per the book, purchasing Advantages and Limitations for your Base Characterisitcs 1) Is not a Naked Advantage, and 2) Does not turn them into a 'Power'.

 

You simply have Advantaged Strength. the side effect is, like any other advantage, you've ALWAYS got that Advantage on it.

[/momentary sidesteop...]

 

Naked Advantages are not overused anymore than Energy Blast is. It is a very useful mechanic to simulate a number of different things. Like say Armor Peircing For STR - you're able to spot structural weaknesses, vulnerable points and you now how to his juuust right to really lay a wallop down.

 

This is the single best thing I think ever happened to Hero.

 

No one dying here tonight: all MY strength is disadvantaged...

 

Thing is you CAN do the 'AP strength' with HA again: you do not need a naked advantage on strength.

 

I think naked advantages are a useful tool to have in the box. When you need them. We may disagree about how often you need them...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

No one dying here tonight: all MY strength is disadvantaged...

 

Thing is you CAN do the 'AP strength' with HA again: you do not need a naked advantage on strength.

 

I think naked advantages are a useful tool to have in the box. When you need them. We may disagree about how often you need them...

Well yeah.. can't argue there.

 

I would probably not allow someone to buy AP for their STR if they had an AP HA already ... first they'd probably well exceed the games DCs, and would definitely start approaching or exceeding the Active Point limits of the game when the two are put together (As they would be in this case).

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

Well' date=' I think I'll step in for a moment here and probably get myself killed...[/quote']

 

If it's good for anything; I'm not going to pound on you. I agree with you.

 

You simply have Advantaged Strength. the side effect is' date=' like any other advantage, you've ALWAYS got that Advantage on it.[/quote']

 

I don't want to turn this into a derail, but we've got a House Rule solution that works pretty well for these things-- originally it was intended to help superheroes not kill agents, but it's worked so well that we still keep it.

 

For an additional +1/2, and Advantage can be bought as 'switchable,' meaning that you can turn it off when you don't want to use it. It works particularly well, and hasn't caused any issues in over ten years. And it's handy for STR especially, simply because a character ought to be able to hit a wall without smashing it if he wants to. If you have more than one advantage, the others can be made Switchable for +1/4 each. It also helps keep down on the characters with multipowers for four versions of each power.......

 

 

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

 

 

 

[Edited for confused punctuation 9-25-09]

[Zed-F]

Re: Hand Attacks Question

 

I'll still take a MP of speedster/brick/martial art/whatever HAs over a buying AP, autofire, or whatever STR, 99 times out of 100.