Champions Universe

[atlascott]

I was all ready to buy something at my FLGS. I had a belly full of Western SKillet, a slight hangover coupled with the endings of a mild cold, and an entire afternoon laid out to read, and drowse.

 

I wanted the combat handbook or pulp hero, but not in stock. I looked over their meagre HERO stuff and picked up Champions Universe.

 

For those who do not know, its a book you buy if you want to run a supers campaign in the 'official' superhero world of HERO games.

 

THERE ARE ALMOST NO STATS FOR THE HEROES AND ENTITIES MENTIONED THEREIN.

 

I couldn't believe it. I even checked the index. Thank god they have an agent statted out in the rules. But none of the villans or heroes. Ok, I'll do away with the hyperbole. Are there 5 super bring total in the book? AS a consumer, I expect and want all the friggin stats for all the friggin heros and villans, or at least the major ones. Good gravy, what good is the book without that stuff? Great rules, but dang it, the 'extras' books are terrible.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I think the heroes are light because the samples are in Champions and in general I think they don't cover much on the hero side of the coin.

 

Villains are covered in Conquerers, Killers, and Crooks. A whole bunch.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Champions Universe has write ups for 9 heroes, 6 villains, and 5 agent/monster/entity types [DEMON, VIPER, UNTIL, IHA, etc]. Considering a hero/villain write up will take 2-3 pages having over 1/5 of the book with write ups seems fairly reasonable to me. It is a universe book afterall, not a character book.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

And BTW, there are [with the upcoming CWW] 95 published CU superheroes available for you in all the various book. That far exceeds anything from both the SAS and M&M lines.

[atlascott]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Telling me to buy other books is not a solution.

 

Telling me that character write ups represent x% of total pages is not a solution.

 

It is ridiculous to sell a 'Champions Universe' book WITHOUT THE CHAMPION'S STATS. Without their 10 main villian's stats. Without their base statted out. Without their vehicles statted out. With lots of references to other books, that might, or might not, have the information you need to play in the Champions Universe.

 

Call it "Champions Universe Book Of History" Consumers will still probably expect to get some character write-ups. But it would at least be a bit more accurate. Or maybe "Champions Universe But Missing Key Character and Vital Vehicle and Villan Information Book" would be the best route.

 

Its like complaning that a new car has no tires, and being told to buy another car with tires. Tires are a reasonable expectation when you buy a new car. So are character write ups for ther heros and villans in a game world.

 

Rather than motivate me to buy another car, or 2 or 3 instead of one book, I bought nothing.

[SirViss]

Re: Champions Universe

 

...

Its like complaning that a new car has no tires, and being told to buy another car with tires. Tires are a reasonable expectation when you buy a new car. So are character write ups for ther heros and villans in a game world.

...

 

Nah, I feel it more like complaining about a car with no a/c. It not the best you could get, but it still works as a car.

[atlascott]

Re: Champions Universe

 

How to Fry an Egg in the HERO system:

 

Egg Frying has a long and storied tradition....[page 9]

....Frying an egg is just one of many ways to cook an egg...[page 26]

...a frying pan is sometimes useful in frying an egg...[page38]

...you need at least one egg to fry an egg...[page49]

...some source of heat...[page 56]...salt and pepper...[page 86]

...chicken or the egg?...[page 137]...raw versus cooked egg...[page 194]

...bacon instead of egg [page 222]...thanks for reading "How to Fry an Egg." You might also be interested in "How to REALLY Fry an Egg," available this fall from HERO games...

[SirViss]

Re: Champions Universe

 

That is HILARIOUS!

 

But still I have to say

 

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Funny thing, Champions Universe is one of those books that I recommend to other supers gamers who aren't interested in the HERO System, or who prefer to create their own characters rather than use "official" prebuilds, but do want interesting ideas that they can port into their own games. CU is quite rich in those IMHO. This is an approach that's not unusual for Fifth Edition Hero Games publications: the various Genre Books, and settings like Terran Empire and Valdorian Age, are relatively light on system "crunch" but heavy on background "fluff" (to borrow common gamer parlance). OTOH the line has plenty of books devoted to crunch and light on fluff. I must admit I've heard complaints about both approaches.

 

atlascott, I'm sorry that the book did not fulfill your expectations. Did you buy the book sight unseen? Was there a reason you didn't flip through it before you picked it up? Had you checked the various reviews of it? Most of those mention the relative writeup lightness of the book, but not all of them do.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Champions Universe

 

The purpose of the CU book is to explain how the CU differs from our own world and to give advice on how to run a superheros game. It does that job admirably. It is not intended to be a book filled with villains. That is what villain books like CC&K are for.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Champions Universe

 

It is ridiculous to sell a 'Champions Universe' book WITHOUT THE CHAMPION'S STATS. Without their 10 main villian's stats. Without their base statted out. Without their vehicles statted out. With lots of references to other books' date=' that might, or might not, have the information you need to play in the Champions Universe.[/quote']

I hate to disagree with you, but I'm gonna.

 

Champions is described as having creation guidelines specific to the superhero genre as well as the stats for the Champions and some of their major enemies.

 

Champions Universe is described as a setting book, detailing the world in which the Champions live.

 

Both descriptions are available on the backs of the books. I hate to sound negative, and I certainly don't mean to sound trite, but did you read that part?

 

Call it "Champions Universe Book Of History" Consumers will still probably expect to get some character write-ups. But it would at least be a bit more accurate. Or maybe "Champions Universe But Missing Key Character and Vital Vehicle and Villan Information Book" would be the best route.

 

Its like complaning that a new car has no tires, and being told to buy another car with tires. Tires are a reasonable expectation when you buy a new car. So are character write ups for ther heros and villans in a game world.

Actually, to use your metaphor, you bought the road map and are wondering why a car doesn't come with it.

 

Rather than motivate me to buy another car, or 2 or 3 instead of one book, I bought nothing.

I'm sorry you feel that way. It's a good book, useful for any superhero setting (not just Hero System). If, however, you failed to read the description of the book on the back and/or didn't peruse the contents of said book and/or are unfamiliar with Hero System in general, you might want to consider returning the book to your store so that someone with a genuine interest may purchase it.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Champions Universe

 

You might also be interested in "How to REALLY Fry an Egg' date='" available this fall from HERO games...[/quote']

Sorry, but due to Steve & Co.'s already packed schedule this has been pushed back to 2006.

[Lethosos]

Re: Champions Universe

 

More accurately, Champions Universe is a filler book to give you ideas, not a stat-heavy crunch book like Conquerers, Killers, and Crooks.

 

Yours was shrink-wrapped, right? I don't believe in buying a sourcebook without thumbing through it a bit.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Telling me to buy other books is not a solution.

 

Telling me that character write ups represent x% of total pages is not a solution.

It's not a solution to what? Not a solution to you wanting more character write ups? We'd all like more character write ups, but the fact that there are only 38 pages worth in a 160 page book doesn't make me crazy.

 

The CU have a combined 95 heroes and 253 villains published to date. There are twice as many names still unwritten on the CU hero and villain pds. I'm sorry you didn't get all 350 characters in one book, but such is life.

 

It is ridiculous to sell a 'Champions Universe' book WITHOUT THE CHAMPION'S STATS.

One small point. The campaign world is called Champions Universe, not the Champions' Universe. Do you see the difference?

 

Without their 10 main villian's stats. Without their base statted out. Without their vehicles statted out. With lots of references to other books, that might, or might not, have the information you need to play in the Champions Universe.

Did you bother to look at Champions, or was that on your ignore list too?

 

Call it "Champions Universe Book Of History" Consumers will still probably expect to get some character write-ups. But it would at least be a bit more accurate. Or maybe "Champions Universe But Missing Key Character and Vital Vehicle and Villan Information Book" would be the best route.

I don't think anyone believes the Champions are "key" characters. There are several superhero teams of greater importance in the CU. And as everyone else has said, CU is a world book not an entire campaign book. It's one piece of an entire puzzle which includes Millennium City, Vibora Bay, DEMON, VIPER, etc. Champions Universe is the foundation. Each other book is a building block.

 

Rather than motivate me to buy another car, or 2 or 3 instead of one book, I bought nothing.

Your loss. There's a lot of meat in CU that you completely overlooked.

[atlascott]

Re: Champions Universe

 

"This is an approach that's not unusual for Fifth Edition Hero Games publications"

 

Yeah, I know. Too bad.

 

"It's a good book, useful for any superhero setting (not just Hero System). If, however, you failed to read the description of the book on the back and/or didn't peruse the contents of said book and/or are unfamiliar with Hero System in general, you might want to consider returning the book to your store so that someone with a genuine interest may purchase it."

 

A good book by what standard? It's fine for people ot laud the books as generic treatises of particular genres. A setting book is not a generic, system-unspecified treatise.

 

"The purpose of the CU book is to explain how the CU differs from our own world and to give advice on how to run a superheros game. It does that job admirably. It is not intended to be a book filled with villains. That is what villain books like CC&K are for."

 

Awesome straw man technique. But when did I ever say I expected a book full of villans? Oh, that's right. I didnt. I think you are dead wrong when it comes to what the CU book is.

 

The CHAMPSIONS BOOK IS DESCRIBED AS "Champions describes how to create and play comic book superhero characters and campaigns."

 

The CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE book is described as "Champions Universe provides a complete world for superhero gaming, with information on the impact of superhumans on technology, the media, politics, and more!"

 

"A complete world for superhero gaming"--just without any stats--more useless exposition that any fan of comicbooks knows.

 

After an ENTIRE BOOK (Champions) dedicated to "how to run a superheros game" with nothing in it that actually helps us run anything in particular, do we REALLY need more of this vacuous page-filling in a book which purports to be "a complete world for superhero gaming"? In a book that is "a complete world for superhero gaming" Id expect at least a few main heroes or super team, their bases and jets statted out, you know, stuff that actually creates "a complete world for superhero gaming." NOT another collected bunch of essays on how to do ALL THE WORK MYSELF.

 

"...you might want to consider returning the book to your store so that someone with a genuine interest may purchase it."

 

I DID NOT BUY THE BOOK precise because I DID FLIP THROUGH IT. It would be a wonderful tool for anyone who wanted to run a superheroic campaing, but who had never seen a hero cartoon or read a comic book in his/her life. So, I'm glad I didnt buy it, because an alien from an alternate dimension where there are no comic books or other superheroic source material may materialize in this dimension and want to take rpg'ing. Once he gets done reading and understanding the 600 page rules behemoth, he can set right in to reading about "a complete world for superhero gaming" but with none of the details that would make it "a complete world for superhero gaming."

 

"It's not a solution to what? Not a solution to you wanting more character write ups? We'd all like more character write ups, but the fact that there are only 38 pages worth in a 160 page book doesn't make me crazy.

 

The CU have a combined 95 heroes and 253 villains published to date. There are twice as many names still unwritten on the CU hero and villain pds. I'm sorry you didn't get all 350 characters in one book, but such is life."

 

Again, awesome straw man. When did I say that the criteria for it being effective as a "a complete world for superhero gaming" was that it needed 95 stated characters? And for the love of d6'es everywhere, WHAT DOES THE FACT THAT THERE ARE 95 HEROeS AND 253 VILLANS IN OTHER BOOKS HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING? That's like buying a car, finding out that it has no tires, and telling me that there are plenty of cars in China which have tires. Huh?

 

Telling me to buy other books, or telling me that other books have lots of statted characters is NOT A SOLUTION to the fact that Champions Universe fails miserably at being what it advertises itself as, which is "a complete world for superhero gaming."

"I don't think anyone believes the Champions are "key" characters. There are several superhero teams of greater importance in the CU. And as everyone else has said, CU is a world book not an entire campaign book. It's one piece of an entire puzzle which includes Millennium City, Vibora Bay, DEMON, VIPER, etc. Champions Universe is the foundation. Each other book is a building block."

 

Ok, so now your argument is that The Champions are not an important part of the The Champions Universe? Why have they graced almost every book cover then? And the argument that CU is just a teeny peice of the puzzle doesn't make sense in the context of it being described as "a complete world for superhero gaming." CU isn't a foundation. It is a bunch of junk they cut out of Champions, assembled in a book, and threw a misleading label on. With 'quality meat' like this, good luck attracting new, loyal gamers (and please note, I but just about all the HERO stuff, because I support Steve, DoJ, and the system). Its just that, at some point, I want some actual useful content.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

atlascott, what is your point? That you wanted DoJ to reprint all the characters in Champions into Champions Universe 2 months after Champions came out? If DoJ did that then you would just be here complaining about how you purchased both books and got reduntant characters.

 

You made the choice which is your right: 38 pages of write ups wasn't enough for your $22.00 of expense and you passed. That's all any of us can do. Complaining about it here is not going to magically add 15 more characters to the 3 year old book.

 

Personally I'd prefer to see a Champions book, and a Sentinals book, and a Justice Squardron book, etc., all of them giving hero write ups, histories, bases, vehicles, and foes write ups. But those books would have nothing to do with the Champions Universe as a place. CU is a place book, not a group book.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Sorry' date=' but due to Steve & Co.'s already packed schedule this has been pushed back to 2006.[/quote']

WHAT?!

 

What am I supposed to do with all these eggs?!

 

foiled again!

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Atlascott,

 

Before this discussion goes any further let me ask you a question. Is there anything anyone can say, besides agreeing with you, that you will consider valid? In other words are we just wasting our time responding to you? I’m not trying to be mean but I would prefer not to respond to someone who will simply ignore what I and others have to say and reply with the same points used in the initial post.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Perhaps this thread is in the wrong forum in any case.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Telling me to buy other books is not a solution.

 

Telling me that character write ups represent x% of total pages is not a solution.

 

It is ridiculous to sell a 'Champions Universe' book WITHOUT THE CHAMPION'S STATS. Without their 10 main villian's stats. Without their base statted out. Without their vehicles statted out. With lots of references to other books, that might, or might not, have the information you need to play in the Champions Universe.

 

Call it "Champions Universe Book Of History" Consumers will still probably expect to get some character write-ups. But it would at least be a bit more accurate. Or maybe "Champions Universe But Missing Key Character and Vital Vehicle and Villan Information Book" would be the best route.

 

Its like complaning that a new car has no tires, and being told to buy another car with tires. Tires are a reasonable expectation when you buy a new car. So are character write ups for ther heros and villans in a game world.

 

Rather than motivate me to buy another car, or 2 or 3 instead of one book, I bought nothing.

I think you are being very unreasonable here.

 

You are completely missing the point of the book if you think its point is to provide you with character write-ups.

 

I think a better example of the approach you are having is if I went to a bookstore and picked up a book on general auto-repair and then complain that it doesn't explain how to change the alternator on a 2000 Mitsubishi Mirage.

 

Edited as I see you didn't actually buy the book.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Sorry' date=' but due to Steve & Co.'s already packed schedule this has been pushed back to 2006.[/quote']

Didn't they rename it Valdorian Egg?

 

I think they plan on having The Ultimate Egg in 2007 as well.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I think the problem here is due to the printers.

 

Champions Universe was complete at one point in time. The book had every scrap of information you could ever want. The book was a massive, three million, four hundred thousand pages of information. Unfortunately, the printing company declared the book too large. So Steve was forced to edit out a couple of million pages. I was particularly disappointed to find out that the rules on how the chaos theory effects worlds on the other side of the universe was cut. My champions game fell apart when Voltage insisted to know the official result of his fart on the weather patterns on Sigma 6. What a terrible way for a game to go.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Could we maybe buy the full version as a pdf?

[Virtue]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Atlascott quite a few of us only by the champions stuff for the fluff and info cause we play other games so this book and the Champions books were great

How about you look through or read some of a book before you buy it in my opion there was to many write ups I rather have more information

With the Champions book i needed this book for a long time looking at more indepth how to properly run a superhero game most publishers had really overlooked this until this book

Thanks Hero Games for these two books keep up the high fluff low crunch books

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I think the problem here is due to the printers.

 

Champions Universe was complete at one point in time. The book had every scrap of information you could ever want. The book was a massive, three million, four hundred thousand pages of information. Unfortunately, the printing company declared the book too large. So Steve was forced to edit out a couple of million pages. I was particularly disappointed to find out that the rules on how the chaos theory effects worlds on the other side of the universe was cut. My champions game fell apart when Voltage insisted to know the official result of his fart on the weather patterns on Sigma 6. What a terrible way for a game to go.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Super Squirrel again.

 

(dammit)