Champions Universe

[atlascott]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I had no negative reaction to posters pointing out that there are so-and-so many write ups, other than to point out that it is completely beside the point.

 

My point was, and always has been, that the Champions book is supposed to be the generic 'how to do a superhero game' but that CU was supposed to be--and in fact, is described as-- a 'complete' setting. What about this makes anyone think I do not know what my point is? How many times do I have to restate it before my detractors understand that there has always been a cogent point? You can use your snide posts, or your interesting attempts at striking an oh-so-world-weary and superior tone. I hope you are impressing yourself, because I just see it as an attempt to skirt the issue, avoid it, rather than confront it.

 

Now, the fact that everyone on this thread (other than the one fellow who didnt care for it too much) evidently sees CU as a great book without any flaws is not statistically significant--too small a sample size. And even if it is, I do not particualrly care. I didn't care for it, so I didn't buy it. I said my peice, and most of my latest posts have had to do with answering inaccurate charges or unkind characterizations. In addition, I think there is definitely some 'jackal factor' here. Pounce on the guy with the unpopular opinion. In response to my unpopular opinion, I get oblique insults, strawman arguments, and other horse-poop like 'now you're being overly dramatic.' Well, you are being rather unkind and nasty. Touche.

 

I agree with the guy who said that my opinion is not likely to be changed by people who tell me to buy other books, and that, since every detail in the world cant be included in one book, none should be. Nor am I likely to persuade people who evade plain and simple criticism with haughty responses and misdirection.

 

This is my last post on this thread, and I know, you're happy for me, good-bye and good riddance, right? Try reading some of my other contributions on the boards before you brand me permanently a HERO hating troll.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

We aren't pouncing on the person with an unpopular opinion. We understand what you are saying quite clearly but you keep saying we aren't listening to you.

 

Frankly, this is entirely over the definition over "complete". Complete is defined in my dictionary as "lacking no component part; full; whole; entire". As a game setting it is complete. It is on Earth so there are your maps. It has superhero teams and villain groups. It has a history. It has information on major organizations in the world. Those are the component parts to a game setting.

 

I'm sorry that you feel that Hero System needs to go to greater lengths to have what you feel is a "complete" product. But for what it sells itself as, Champions Universe does just that.

[atlascott]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Ok, I am a liar. THIS is my last post.

 

I re-read the entire thread, and I am being the most aggressive here. I apologize to the entire bunch of you folks. After re-reading, I see that this is a simple difference of opinion, and I am being more obliquely nasty than anyone else. Everyone is entittled to an opinion. I just got a little too worked up. Again, I apologize. I think that my current working arrangement has me prone to overreaction and venting. Thanks to everyone who has contributed--I read everything, but evidently, need the persepctive of a second read.

 

Again, apologies.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

It is alright. I didn't think you were that bad.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

No problems. We all get hot sometimes when debating. No one here holds grudges [not big ones anyway ]. Not every Hero book is what we hope it will be; but sometimes that's because our expectations are off. Sometimes just flipping through a book doesn't give you an accurate representation of what's in the book. CU has a lot of world "meat" even if only about 1/4 of it is dedicated to traditional write ups.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Also, I did playtest Champions Worldwide and the book is great for giving you more villains and heroes than you would ever want from across the world.

[zornwil]

Re: Champions Universe

 

The CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE book is described as "Champions Universe provides a complete world for superhero gaming' date=' with information on the impact of superhumans on technology, the media, politics, and more!"[/quote']

 

Okay...

 

"A complete world for superhero gaming"--just without any stats--more useless exposition that any fan of comicbooks knows.

 

9 heroes and 6 villains and a few other entities is "without any stats"?

 

The description you yourself quoted actually doesn't say squat about stats. It is rather clear it is "information on the impact of superhumans on..." and "a complete world for superhero gaming."

 

I find nothing contradictory in this.

 

What might be a problem is that the bookstores often don't have enough of a selection that someone won't see the other books which they might prefer.

 

Personally, I did NOT buy CU, but that's because I'm pretty deep into stuff I create and, with all due respect to HERO, I'm not too interested in that much of their setting stuff (sorry, guys). Then again, I'm not too interested in almost any other setting material, either.

 

To me, the book is, by your own account as well as what I saw, well-marked, accurate, and the alternatives of getting more characters is definitely out there.

 

I understand you don't like the DIRECTION, but that doesn't make the book a rip-off, just the direction "wrong" to you and people of your ilk.

 

But I think the alternative, then, would be a CU book about twice as big...now maybe that's a good idea, but it'd still be more expensive, even if not twice as much, and likely may turn off more buyers than it gets.

 

Anyway, I don't see anything to be outraged about although I can understand wanting the product line done differently. I do, too, in some respects, but it's also quite different than what you want to see, and from what I can tell, what I want is probably too commercially risky (even if undeniably brilliant and wholly correct! ). (what I'm referring to is what RDU Neil referred to as the "cadillac" of HERO, a complete game that's self-contained with the rules and basic setting and a few characters; I would like to see something like this in each genre, somewhat more like the old HERO model, frankly, although with a core book still available, and I'd also like to see a line of "Built Using HERO" products which may or may not closely resemble HERO but are basically other games built from HERO's toolkit)

[zornwil]

Re: Champions Universe

 

So the message is' date=' don't criticize or else?[/quote']

 

Yes, here comes the guys in suits with big guns!

 

Nah, the message is if you make a federal case about something, you have to amply demonstrate it's a federal, not a civil, case.

[zornwil]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I had no negative reaction to posters pointing out that there are so-and-so many write ups, other than to point out that it is completely beside the point.

 

My point was, and always has been, that the Champions book is supposed to be the generic 'how to do a superhero game' but that CU was supposed to be--and in fact, is described as-- a 'complete' setting. What about this makes anyone think I do not know what my point is? How many times do I have to restate it before my detractors understand that there has always been a cogent point? You can use your snide posts, or your interesting attempts at striking an oh-so-world-weary and superior tone. I hope you are impressing yourself, because I just see it as an attempt to skirt the issue, avoid it, rather than confront it.

 

Now, the fact that everyone on this thread (other than the one fellow who didnt care for it too much) evidently sees CU as a great book without any flaws is not statistically significant--too small a sample size. And even if it is, I do not particualrly care. I didn't care for it, so I didn't buy it. I said my peice, and most of my latest posts have had to do with answering inaccurate charges or unkind characterizations. In addition, I think there is definitely some 'jackal factor' here. Pounce on the guy with the unpopular opinion. In response to my unpopular opinion, I get oblique insults, strawman arguments, and other horse-poop like 'now you're being overly dramatic.' Well, you are being rather unkind and nasty. Touche.

 

I agree with the guy who said that my opinion is not likely to be changed by people who tell me to buy other books, and that, since every detail in the world cant be included in one book, none should be. Nor am I likely to persuade people who evade plain and simple criticism with haughty responses and misdirection.

 

This is my last post on this thread, and I know, you're happy for me, good-bye and good riddance, right? Try reading some of my other contributions on the boards before you brand me permanently a HERO hating troll.

Dude, I definitely don't brand you as a troll or HERO-hater. I well recall you from other threads.

 

I just think you're blowing a gasket over something that is more worthwhile of, say, a minor rant and then a shrug. At least by the very same information you yourself relayed on what the book self-described and what is in it.

 

But, hey, now that I think about it, we all have our hot buttons, and sometimes each of us comes up with an oddball one. So, I guess this one is yours. Fair enough. Just realize we're having a really hard time rationalizing it, so maybe it's a tad irrational (not your central criticism, but the magnitude of reaction).

[zornwil]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Ok, I am a liar. THIS is my last post.

 

I re-read the entire thread, and I am being the most aggressive here. I apologize to the entire bunch of you folks. After re-reading, I see that this is a simple difference of opinion, and I am being more obliquely nasty than anyone else. Everyone is entittled to an opinion. I just got a little too worked up. Again, I apologize. I think that my current working arrangement has me prone to overreaction and venting. Thanks to everyone who has contributed--I read everything, but evidently, need the persepctive of a second read.

 

Again, apologies.

Wow, I should have read to the end before responding. A lot of respect to you for this post. That took introspection and guts. I will rep you as soon as I can.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Universe

 

atlascott, it's understandable and forgivable to sometimes become overly emotional over something you're passionate about, as you obviously are about this game. Acknowledging that and apologising for it isn't easy to do, though, and I commend you for it.

 

I also commend the other posters to this thread for having restrained themselves to mostly civil responses. On almost any other Internet discussion forum I've visited, this thread would have long since descended into a flamewar. More proof of the predominantly classy HERO online community.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I had no negative reaction to posters pointing out that there are so-and-so many write ups, other than to point out that it is completely beside the point.

 

My point was, and always has been, that the Champions book is supposed to be the generic 'how to do a superhero game' but that CU was supposed to be--and in fact, is described as-- a 'complete' setting. What about this makes anyone think I do not know what my point is? How many times do I have to restate it before my detractors understand that there has always been a cogent point? You can use your snide posts, or your interesting attempts at striking an oh-so-world-weary and superior tone. I hope you are impressing yourself, because I just see it as an attempt to skirt the issue, avoid it, rather than confront it.

 

Now, the fact that everyone on this thread (other than the one fellow who didnt care for it too much) evidently sees CU as a great book without any flaws is not statistically significant--too small a sample size. And even if it is, I do not particualrly care. I didn't care for it, so I didn't buy it. I said my peice, and most of my latest posts have had to do with answering inaccurate charges or unkind characterizations. In addition, I think there is definitely some 'jackal factor' here. Pounce on the guy with the unpopular opinion. In response to my unpopular opinion, I get oblique insults, strawman arguments, and other horse-poop like 'now you're being overly dramatic.' Well, you are being rather unkind and nasty. Touche.

 

I agree with the guy who said that my opinion is not likely to be changed by people who tell me to buy other books, and that, since every detail in the world cant be included in one book, none should be. Nor am I likely to persuade people who evade plain and simple criticism with haughty responses and misdirection.

 

This is my last post on this thread, and I know, you're happy for me, good-bye and good riddance, right? Try reading some of my other contributions on the boards before you brand me permanently a HERO hating troll.

 

Do I have to? Reading is hard.

 

Ok, I am a liar. THIS is my last post.

 

I re-read the entire thread, and I am being the most aggressive here. I apologize to the entire bunch of you folks. After re-reading, I see that this is a simple difference of opinion, and I am being more obliquely nasty than anyone else. Everyone is entittled to an opinion. I just got a little too worked up. Again, I apologize. I think that my current working arrangement has me prone to overreaction and venting. Thanks to everyone who has contributed--I read everything, but evidently, need the persepctive of a second read.

 

Again, apologies.

 

Ah, don't fret about it man, EVERYONE blows their stack on these boards at least once. Usually here, the NGD board, or any thread with the letters "vs" in the title (a la Batman vs Captain America). And no one is going to like everything about the products, that's almost impossible.

 

C'mon, group hug! Group hug!

[Mister E]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Do I have to? Reading is hard.

 

 

 

Ah, don't fret about it man, EVERYONE blows their stack on these boards at least once. Usually here, the NGD board, or any thread with the letters "vs" in the title (a la Batman vs Captain America). And no one is going to like everything about the products, that's almost impossible.

 

C'mon, group hug! Group hug!

Who do you think would win in a fight... Indiana Jones, or Han Solo? You know... if they met on the street, and they had never heard of eachother before....

[John Desmarais]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Who do you think would win in a fight... Indiana Jones' date=' or Han Solo? You know... if they met on the street, and they had never heard of eachother before....[/quote']

 

That depends. What year is it.

 

1977, Han wins ('cause he shoots firsts).

 

2004, Indy, 'cause Han's been retconned.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Now that the discussion has toned down a bit, I'll add that I very rarely buy books I cannot physically pull off a shelf and examine a bit in person. In large part this is because I don't want to be disappointed due to my expectations of content and independence of material. It's one of those lessons I learned early, so that I can be annoyed rather than really pissed off. Now this would work a lot better in practice if only I had a gaming store with decent stock....

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Now that the discussion has toned down a bit' date=' I'll add that I very rarely buy books I cannot physically pull off a shelf and examine a bit in person. In large part this is because I [i']don't[/i] want to be disappointed due to my expectations of content and independence of material. It's one of those lessons I learned early, so that I can be annoyed rather than really pissed off. Now this would work a lot better in practice if only I had a gaming store with decent stock....

Sure, it's always great to be able to look at a book but a lot of times you're not getting an accurate feeling for the book based on a 5 min flip-through. I went back through CU and checked, and John is correct: There are 29 write ups in the book of various sizes. That's a far-cry from atlascott's flip-through idea of 5. Sometimes a book needs more then a flip-through.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Sure' date=' it's always great to be able to look at a book but a lot of times you're not getting an accurate feeling for the book based on a 5 min flip-through. I went back through CU and checked, and John is correct: There are 29 write ups in the book of various sizes. That's a far-cry from atlascott's flip-through idea of 5. Sometimes a book needs more then a flip-through. [/quote']

True, but I do a pretty thorough, "flip-through." It probably takes me more like 10-20 minutes. In those areas that I am more interested in, I will delve down into details until I am satisfied I know how the book handles things. In other areas I skim a little. I spend a fair bit of time on the table of contents, and I take a very brief look at the appendices and index.

 

I think the only Hero book I have flipped through in this manner and not bought was TUV, and at the time I decided I would buy it if I ran a game in which it was more likely to be useful. I now wouldn't have a problem ordering a copy online or something.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Sure' date=' it's always great to be able to look at a book but a lot of times you're not getting an accurate feeling for the book based on a 5 min flip-through. I went back through CU and checked, and John is correct: There are 29 write ups in the book of various sizes. That's a far-cry from atlascott's flip-through idea of 5. Sometimes a book needs more then a flip-through. [/quote']

 

And of course, those are just the character writeups. We also get stats for Stronghold cell configurations, Yengtao martial arts abilities, and PRIMUS, MARS, UNTIL, ARGENT and VIPER equipment.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Now that the discussion has toned down a bit' date=' I'll add that I very rarely buy books I cannot physically pull off a shelf and examine a bit in person. In large part this is because I [i']don't[/i] want to be disappointed due to my expectations of content and independence of material. It's one of those lessons I learned early, so that I can be annoyed rather than really pissed off. Now this would work a lot better in practice if only I had a gaming store with decent stock....

I don't have that policy with DOJ books because my FLGS:

a) refuses to stock Hero Books

refuses to let people browse before they buy even if they did stock Hero Books

c) I have never been disatisfied with a DOJ product to date

[John Desmarais]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I don't have that policy with DOJ books because my FLGS:

a) refuses to stock Hero Books

refuses to let people browse before they buy even if they did stock Hero Books

c) I have never been disatisfied with a DOJ product to date

 

Based on these three items, I would buy my stuff directly from Hero Games.

[incrdbil]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Based on these three items' date=' I would buy my stuff directly from Hero Games.[/quote']

 

The whole no-browsing allowed bit would seem to negate the "F" part of FLGS.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Universe

 

The whole no-browsing allowed bit would seem to negate the "F" part of FLGS.

 

I have mixed feelings in this regard. While there's a definite attraction to perusing the book before making a purchase decision, the business owner also needs to consider the likeliness of an ultimate purchaser not wanting "that copy" because it's been heavily used (ie it doesn't sit flat any more; cover is worn; "it's not Mint Condition") so the business owner is left with inventory he either eats or has to sell at a discount.

 

How Friendly are you being to your LGS in this regard?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I have mixed feelings in this regard. While there's a definite attraction to perusing the book before making a purchase decision, the business owner also needs to consider the likeliness of an ultimate purchaser not wanting "that copy" because it's been heavily used (ie it doesn't sit flat any more; cover is worn; "it's not Mint Condition") so the business owner is left with inventory he either eats or has to sell at a discount.

 

How Friendly are you being to your LGS in this regard?

I agree with this arguement to a certain extent... but then my view is this is a book that is intended to be used and thus the "mint" condition will not last that long to begin with - and anyone that picky is better off ordering strait from the company in most cases sicne there's less middlemen moving the merchandise around the world.

 

That and the biggest way to gain impulse sales is to let a customer check out the wares first to try and peak even that much more interest.

 

I understand a No Reading policy completely, but a No Browsing policy has, in my experience, only come from people who shouldn't be in the retail business to begin with.

[incrdbil]

Re: Champions Universe

 

 

How Friendly are you being to your LGS in this regard?

 

Well, when I browse a book, I do just that, just browse, read lightly. I don't dog-ear it, I dont spill food or drink on it or otherwise damage or abuse the item to fall under the "you break it you buy it" policy. I dont lay it out flat and spread out the spine with force.

 

Without the option to browse..well, I may still be friendly, but I may not be buying

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Well, when I browse a book, I do just that, just browse, read lightly. I don't dog-ear it, I dont spill food or drink on it or otherwise damage or abuse the item to fall under the "you break it you buy it" policy. I dont lay it out flat and spread out the spine with force.

 

Without the option to browse..well, I may still be friendly, but I may not be buying

 

Having made the choice to buy, which of the three copies on the shelf do you purchase - the one you (and many others) have leafed through, with the cover a bit scuffed and the spine less flat, or the one in the back whose cover is still glossy?

 

I'm suggesting your FLGS lets you browse before you buy, so you should be willing to return the favour and take the book that may lack a bit of shelf appeal due to your FLGS allowing browsing.