Champions Universe

[atlascott]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I'm not sure if any further response makes any sense. We are talking right past one another. I think I've amply demonstrated that the book doesnt do what it describes itself as doing. No one really addresses it. Mockery ensues. That's cool, whatever entertains you.

 

I'm not saying the book has no value at all. It just doesn't do what it says it does. I'm GLAD that you all seem to find no flaw in any HERO product. Im sure DoJ is gratified that their book is perfection. That's great. I also find that fact rather interesting.

 

Not to be too repetitive, but I never wrote that I expected a villans book, and I STILL dont see why other books which have hundreds of write-ups have to do with anything.

 

I appreciate that there are other additonal materials that have what I am looking for. I appreciate that this book evidently seems to meet some peoples' needs. I appreciate that not every book can cover every subject matter in utter detail. But, I DO expect more from a book when it promises: "Champions Universe provides a complete world for superhero gaming" But CU doesn't. That's all. I am glad I never bought it, and I never will. My 3rd and 4th Edition source materials are easily modified. I was just HOPING that 5th Ed. stuff would have something to add. Other than page after page of general exposition.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Here are the two descriptions as to what the book says it does. It seems like it does what it advertises it does:

 

The first setting book for Champions details the world of the " Champions Universe," from the glittering buildings and high-tech streets of Millennium City, to the shadowy alleys of Vibora Bay, to alien and undersea civilizations that may pose a threat to humanity. It provides a complete world for superhero gaming, with information on the impact of superhumans on technology, the media, politics, and more!

 

Champions Universe includes:

 

- a detailed history of the world, from the rise of superhumans in 1938 until the present day

 

- how the world of the Champions Universe differs from our own - how the existence of superhumana has afected government, the media, technolgy, and more

 

- a review of superhumans and sites of interest around the world, including secret bases, long-lost civilizations, space stations, mystic gateways, and lots more

 

- a look at what the most powerful characters and organizations in the setting - Dr. Destroyer, UNTIL, Mechanon, DEMON, VIPER, and more - are like, and what schemes and missions they're currently involved in

 

- hundreds of scenario hooks for GMs and character ideas for players

 

- a separate GM's Vault section for "GM only" information, so players can use the book without learning any of the secrets the GM plans to create adventures around

 

- and more!

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I'm not sure if any further response makes any sense. We are talking right past one another. I think I've amply demonstrated that the book doesnt do what it describes itself as doing. No one really addresses it. Mockery ensues. That's cool, whatever entertains you.

 

I'm not saying the book has no value at all. It just doesn't do what it says it does. I'm GLAD that you all seem to find no flaw in any HERO product. Im sure DoJ is gratified that their book is perfection. That's great. I also find that fact rather interesting.

 

Not to be too repetitive, but I never wrote that I expected a villans book, and I STILL dont see why other books which have hundreds of write-ups have to do with anything.

 

I appreciate that there are other additonal materials that have what I am looking for. I appreciate that this book evidently seems to meet some peoples' needs. I appreciate that not every book can cover every subject matter in utter detail. But, I DO expect more from a book when it promises: "Champions Universe provides a complete world for superhero gaming" But CU doesn't. That's all. I am glad I never bought it, and I never will. My 3rd and 4th Edition source materials are easily modified. I was just HOPING that 5th Ed. stuff would have something to add. Other than page after page of general exposition.

All I have to say in response to your entire "point" is this:

 

I was shocked to find out that Prince Summerset did not have a write-up in Valdorian Age. And then I realized how cool it was. I could do anything with him I wanted. The same could be said for a ton of other NPCs mentioned in the book.

[atlascott]

Re: Champions Universe

 

No further response is really necessary. But I just cannot help myself...

 

#1

- a review of superhumans and sites of interest around the world, including secret bases, long-lost civilizations, space stations, mystic gateways, and lots more...a look at what the most powerful characters and organizations in the setting - Dr. Destroyer, UNTIL, Mechanon, DEMON, VIPER, and more - are like, and what schemes and missions they're currently involved...a separate GM's Vault section for "GM only" information, so players can use the book without learning any of the secrets the GM plans to create adventures around"

 

Yeah, expect NONE OF IT IS STATTED OUT. Or almost none of it. What good does a reference to something do you when you have to build the entire thing yourself? Why have an official game setting if every campaign plays it completely differently, because you gotta stat it all out yourself? Again, it is charming beyond measure that you are so forgiving and so possessed of spare time that buying a book that offers "a complete world for superhero gaming" is simply a great opportunity for you to do more work. That's not what I or most gamers want. If wanted to build my own world, why would I buy a book?

 

#2

"I was shocked to find out that Prince Summerset did not have a write-up in Valdorian Age. And then I realized how cool it was. I could do anything with him I wanted. The same could be said for a ton of other NPCs mentioned in the book."

 

I am really trying not to lose my temper and say something unkind. You just do not get it.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

We get it, but you don't get it. What you want is SUBJECTIVE! You want MORE; more then the book promised to give you. It gave you what it gave you. It didn't promise to give you everything you wanted. Hero has published 20 CU books and I still don't have everything I have wanted. It's subjective. What you want I don't want. I don't want to buy the Champions' write ups twice. Since you don't apparently buy any CU books you don't care, but for the rest of us it's a big deal. You want it all in one package so you can save money. We all want that, but that is not in the best interests of a publisher. It's still subjective. You didn't get what you were expecting, but you didn't buy the book so there is no loss. All we have here is you complaining that you didn't get what you wanted. IT'S SUBJECTIVE!

[Steve]

Re: Champions Universe

 

No further response is really necessary. But I just cannot help myself...

 

#1

 

Yeah, expect NONE OF IT IS STATTED OUT. Or almost none of it. What good does a reference to something do you when you have to build the entire thing yourself? Why have an official game setting if every campaign plays it completely differently, because you gotta stat it all out yourself? Again, it is charming beyond measure that you are so forgiving and so possessed of spare time that buying a book that offers "a complete world for superhero gaming" is simply a great opportunity for you to do more work. That's not what I or most gamers want. If wanted to build my own world, why would I buy a book?

 

 

Okay, so you basically want a complete, canned world spoonfed to you. You don't want to put any effort into customizing it to your own tastes because you don't have the time. That's understandable, and I know many gamers who are like that. Champions Universe could have been done this way, but it would have grown to the size of Fantasy Hero in the process and risen in price accordingly. A single volume, complete in itself, is not a practical way to publish gaming material, especially for a company like Hero that is coming back after a long silence and trying to get some cash flow going. I'm not aware of any of the gaming companies that produce a complete game world in a single tome. As part of their D&D line, TSR published the Forgotten Realms and statted out many characters in it, but the original hardbound book was still not complete. White Wolf produces endless sourcebooks on their World of Darkness stuff. I've lost track of the number of Rifts sourcebooks there are.

 

Hero gave us the Champions Universe sourcebook and quite a large number of plot hooks in it and a decent skeleton to build on. You're mad that it didn't do more, mad that we are being "too forgiving" towards Hero for this product, and mad that that we seem to be picking on you and your opinions. A game world written without statting out a bunch of characters is not complete? That seems to be the entire point of your argument.

[Mister E]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I actually think "Champions," "Champions Universe," and "Conquerors, Killers, and Crooks" were all pretty weak books. They have some good stuff in them, and slowly helped me figure out the game, but by and large lacked interesting background, ballanced Character write-ups, and inspiration. I actually haven't bought "Millinium City" because it looked too much like "Champaions Universe." Sorry.

 

Where I think "Champions Universe" fails, is difficult to pin-point. I found it boring, and overly generic I guess. Rarely in the book did I find myself saying, "Okay, this is it. This is where I want my Characters to play, and this is what I want to do." Instead I found myself thinking, "Man, the Black Mask seems cool, but there's no real personality/history/plot-hooks here. It's just a name with a Genesis-esque geneology list."

 

All of these books are good. Just not magically good.

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I actually like the premise of the CU but I do agree that the books could be written in a more colorful style [Freedom City uses many of the same basic concepts of the CU but Steve Kenson focused more on the world then the mechanics in the book]. In some regards I think the universe has jumped the shark by focusing too much on the Champions' team and not enough on the world as a whole. I never really get the feeling that the CU is a real place but I like most of the concepts it entails.

 

I like Star*Guard and that there are legacy superhero teams. I just wish we'd get more details about the rest of CU rather then more crunchy books. I'm far less interested in the 100 VIPER weapons and package deals then I am the various hidden VIPER bases, all their master plans, inter-organization rivalries, and who they're hunting and why. Cream is the food of my imagination.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Yeah' date=' expect NONE OF IT IS STATTED OUT. Or almost none of it. What good does a reference to something do you when you have to build the entire thing yourself? Why have an official game setting if every campaign plays it completely differently, because you gotta stat it all out yourself? Again, it is charming beyond measure that you are so forgiving and so possessed of spare time that buying a book that offers "a complete world for superhero gaming" is simply a great opportunity for you to do more work. That's not what I or most gamers want. If wanted to build my own world, why would I buy a book?[/quote']I was royally ticked off that Ayers Rock wasn't stated out when I read the playtest manuscript for Champions Worldwide. I should start a thread on that!

[John Desmarais]

Re: Champions Universe

 

You just do not get it.

 

Sure we do - we simply don't agree with you, and you seem to find that intolerable. In my opinion you had an unreasonable expectation of what the contents of Champions Universe should be.

 

AS a consumer' date=' I expect and want all the friggin stats for all the friggin heros and villans, or at least the major ones.[/quote']

 

And would you have been willing to pay $100 for all 800 pages of it?

 

The major villains are stat'ed in Conquerers, Killers and Crooks, and including them in the Champions Universe book would have more than doubled the size and price of the book - and would have reduced overall sales as more people are likely to buy just a book of villains than would buy a monstersous book containing a setting and the villains. The hero group, the Champions, are pretty irrelevant; and most of the other "major" heroes mentioned in the book do have stats (Black Mask, Dr. Macabre, Meteorman, The All American, Victory, Shugoshin, Kinetik, Captain Patriot, Stalwart...) DEMON, VIPER, and UNTIL are also detailed in volumes of their own.

 

I'm reading the back of the book right now, and I see nothing that would lead me to believe that it would contain a large number stat write-ups of characters (just as I wouldn't expect to find a large number of monster writeups in something like the Grayhawk Gazeteer). The book tells you, in pretty fair accuracy in my opinion, what it contains - it describes the setting.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Hmm... I believe the key issue of contention we're getting here, is that atlascott holds that the declaration, "a complete world for superhero gaming" applied to this book, means that the book must necessarily include game stats for everything covered in it; and that that fact is self-evident from the above declaration. Obviously there are others here who disagree with that position. As this is a fundamental point of departure between the two arguments, I doubt either side is going to convince the other.

[incrdbil]

Re: Champions Universe

 

I think I've amply demonstrated that the book doesnt do what it describes itself as doing.

 

You've demonstrated it didnt meet your personal expectations.

 

But, I DO expect more from a book when it promises: "Champions Universe provides a complete world for superhero gaming" But CU doesn't.

 

It's the Champions Universe sourcebook. Not a sourcebook about 'The Champions' superhero team. The universe setting isn't named after the superhero team. Champions was the name of the game for some time, and a certain setting was suggested, if never implicitly set out in one book in the colelcted supplements. The Chammpions Universe setting book reflects the latest incarnation of that setting; it is not a product centered around a specific team. The character write up of that one team does not make that book any more, or less, valid as a setting sourcebook.

 

So, what no win situation do you prefer? The Champions team not be priinted as characters in the genre book 'Champions'? Let's hear the complaints about that book now, a genre book without a sample super team. Print them in both--ok, here comes the 'filler material, I'm running for my group, I dont need any generic NPC team' and "I already bought that" crowd, Combine the genre and setting book? Cue the "I just want a genre book" group, which is a pretty valid complaint, considering the system.

 

Oh well, one complaint about the lack of the Champions in CU. Considering gamers and the nature of the internet, that is a roaring success.

[incrdbil]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Why have an official game setting if every campaign plays it completely differently, because you gotta stat it all out yourself?

 

That one sentence is so sad, in a d20eque sort of way. Campaigns might play differently! Nooooo! the seventh seal has been broken!

 

All of Dr Destroyer's, Viper and Demons activities weren't statted out. Noooooo! Considering his write up says 'as many as needed, you just might get the idea that not all of them will ever be written out.

 

 

As for doing work, the CU universe does a lot of work. Superhumans and the law? Plenty of good information, with universe specific rulings included. History of WW II? It is there. worldwide population levels, and national policy towards supers? Done. General technology effect of supers? done. World organizations dealing with supers? Plenty of info. Superhero influence on culture, entertainment? Discussed and explored. Metahuman registration? Lots of info. Plot hooks, uncountable.

 

Map to all of Foxbats hidden bases? Not done. Thank heavens.

[atlascott]

Re: Champions Universe

 

For the fourth time, I do not want or need or expect every detail statted out. I do not need or want or expect and entire world to be spoonfed to me. But can we at least agree that, if you are going to have an official game world, it might help to provide some frames of reference? Believe me, I don't care what secret map to Foxbat's base you use--it is not primary of the CU. But stats and maps of the main characters. their vehicles and bases are.

 

The only thing subjective is the entire CU game world. But DoJ could have corrected that--by giving more of an objective frame of reference--by including maps, stats, stuff like that. Which they did. In other books. Fine. Just not in their 'complete game world' book, CU.

 

And, BTW, Champions did not exactly blow me away with the stats and write ups--but then again, CHampions isn't MEANT to. It is a generic general reference volume for superhero gaming generally.

 

Now, I understand the economics of the situation. If you can sell 4 or 5 books, break the necessary info into 4 or 5 books instead of 1 or 2. But when you do so at unnatural-for-the-industry points, or allude to information that reasonably can be expected but which a particular books does not contain, IMO, you've crossed a line.

 

And let me clarify--I own over 1/2 of all published 5th and 5thER books. I am a great user and lover of the system. Sourcebooks, rules, everything. I haven't asked for a refund. But when I am bombarded with accusations that I am unreasonable, intolerant, or a bit nutty, I take umbrage. I find it to be a bit outrageous that my position on this is taken with such incredulity. No one ever heard any of this before?

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Just not in their 'complete game world' book' date=' CU.[/quote']

This is the part I wish you'd understand. The word "complete" is subjective. To you complete suggests the book include 5 Champions, 10 villains, and some maps. To me the word complete suggests all 18 CU superhero teams [and bases and vehicles and npcs], all 100 CU independent heroes, and all the information I will need on Millennium City and Vibora Bay. Since CU does not contail all of that it's not a complete book in my eyes. For someone else complete means something else entirely.

 

We're not objecting that you didn't get what you wanted and so didn't buy the book. We're objecting because you're here whinning about a 3 year old book that can't be changed now. The ship has sailed. We get it. You wanted MORE. Move on with your disappointment. There are other books that give you MORE.

[atlascott]

Re: Champions Universe

 

MitchellS, if a book is 3 years old, does that mean no one is allowed to comment on it? Does that mean a new edition might never come out, with modifcations the authors might have made based on feedback? If my 'whinning' bothers you so much, change the channel. It takes more effort to post rudely here than it does to ignore posts in which you find no value. So go be rude somewhere else. Otherwise, someone might accuse you of only posting so that you can stretch you 'oblique-insult' muscles.

[incrdbil]

Re: Champions Universe

 

my 'whinning' bothers you so much, change the channel.

 

If you can't handle the responses generated by your comments and opinions made on a public board brings.....

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

MitchellS' date=' if a book is 3 years old, does that mean no one is allowed to comment on it? Does that mean a new edition might never come out, with modifcations the authors might have made based on feedback? If my 'whinning' bothers you so much, change the channel. It takes more effort to post rudely here than it does to ignore posts in which you find no value. So go be rude somewhere else. Otherwise, someone might accuse you of only posting so that you can stretch you 'oblique-insult' muscles.[/quote']

No. I just post because you're over-reacting; probably the same reason everyone else who has disagreed with you has posted.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Champions Universe

 

And let me clarify--I own over 1/2 of all published 5th and 5thER books. I am a great user and lover of the system. Sourcebooks' date=' rules, everything. I haven't asked for a refund. But when I am bombarded with accusations that I am unreasonable, intolerant, or a bit nutty, I take umbrage. I find it to be a bit outrageous that my position on this is taken with such incredulity. No one ever heard any of this before?[/quote']

Um...nope. Fox1 was about the most negative guy when it came to Hero System and Hero Products, and I never heard him complain on this or a similar topic.

 

So...um...yeah. It's pretty much just you so far. Sorry 'bout that.

[atlascott]

Re: Champions Universe

 

So the message is, don't criticize or else?

[MitchellS]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Or else what? Now you're just being overly dramatic.

 

Ultimately the message is to learn to deal with your disappointments without feeling the need to express them in an overly-negative fashion [especially when you are uniformed about the subject matter]. You're the one who asked if there were 5 write ups in the book. You didn't seem to like the fact that I told you there are around 20 [comprising 38 pages of a 160 page book].

 

Perhaps if you had actually purchased Champions Universe you might have a better understanding of it, and then realized how foolish your demand for completeness really is [because the book tells you how many dozens of supers make up the CU and there's no way they can be contained within a single book].

 

So basically your argument has gone from: "There's not even 5 characters in the book" to "The Champions should have been in there" to "I don't care that the heroes are in other books" to "the Champions write ups sucked anyway."

 

Maybe you need to figure out what your point really is.

[incrdbil]

Re: Champions Universe

 

So the message is' date=' don't criticize or else?[/quote']

 

The message is not to expect evveryone agree with you, or have the same extreme reaction you do on a subject, and in fact, to expect those who may disagree with you, especially on very subjective subjects.

 

It is one of the unspoken hazards of posting on the intenet, but its unspoken because it's in the same category of information not needing a PSA as 'don't forget to breathe or you may die'.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Champions Universe

 

So the message is' date=' don't criticize or else?[/quote']

 

Nope. Criticize all you want. Just don't expect everyone (or, in this case, anyone) to agree with you. You voiced your opinion and everone else involved in this thread disagreed with it. Statistically (using the members of this discussion group as a sample) this would imply that what Hero Games chose to include in the book was deemed adequate by a majority of thier audience.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Champions Universe

 

You didn't seem to like the fact that I told you there are around 20 [comprising 38 pages of a 160 page book].

 

I counted closer to 30, including what I considered a nice mix of heroes, villains, and "others".

[Steve]

Re: Champions Universe

 

Nope. Criticize all you want. Just don't expect everyone (or' date=' in this case, anyone) to agree with you. You voiced your opinion and everone else involved in this thread disagreed with it. Statistically (using the members of this discussion group as a sample) this would imply that what Hero Games chose to include in the book was deemed adequate by a majority of thier audience.[/quote']

 

I own both the Hero 4th Edition version of Champions Universe and the Hero 5th Edition version. Between the two, I felt I was getting more out of the newer version. It felt more coherent than the older one.