Metamorphosis

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I guess the key here is trading major effect for versatility. TK can cause some major grief. Change Environment can do a lot of different stuff even though it is not very good at grabbing things or doing damage (or making people blind' date=' or making people see things that aren't there, or...). Multiform can do some major changes, but the form into which you change is fixed. We have no equivalent that can make a wide variety of minor changes. At least, not without resorting to a VPP which has to be drastically Limited and such, but we could do [i']anything[/i] with that; it is overkill, and too much work besides.

 

Nice, practical summation. Rep.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I guess the key here is trading major effect for versatility. TK can cause some major grief. Change Environment can do a lot of different stuff even though it is not very good at grabbing things or doing damage (or making people blind' date=' or making people see things that aren't there, or...). Multiform can do some major changes, but the form into which you change is fixed. We have no equivalent that can make a wide variety of minor changes. At least, not without resorting to a VPP which has to be drastically Limited and such, but we could do [i']anything[/i] with that; it is overkill, and too much work besides.

I concur that is an excellent summation.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I concur that is an excellent summation.

So we've come full circle again with a couple of possible fixes:

1) An option for Transform to affect yourself but only to something lesser.

2) A new Power Construct that might be similar to Multiform but with different mechanics and restrictions.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

So we've come full circle again with a couple of possible fixes:

1) An option for Transform to affect yourself but only to something lesser.

2) A new Power Construct that might be similar to Multiform but with different mechanics and restrictions.

 

- Christopher Mullins

Not fixes, alternatives.

 

I like Shapeshift as it is for what it does. It just doesn't do what some of us need/want. Both of the above are viable alternative options. Number 1 is certainly easier to implement.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Not fixes, alternatives.

 

I like Shapeshift as it is for what it does. It just doesn't do what some of us need/want. Both of the above are viable alternative options. Number 1 is certainly easier to implement.

Sorry I wasn't clearer. Yes, it's fixes, since it fixes those areas that are missing with the current system. However, I'm not suggesting getting rid of what currently exists either, since it fills in specific gaps in other areas. Now whether Images could have options to fill in those gaps instead is another question.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Well, I say alternatives because I'm perfectly happy with the idea of Shapeshift+OtherPowers doing what is desired. I've no problem with the concept of needed multiple powers to acheive an effect and don't feel the system really has to have a new power to do this.

 

But, some do and therefore it is a warranted alternative/"fix" - i.e. A House Rule. And I'm always willing to concede that as a viable solution.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Which is why I think it should be a power with a substantial buy in, say 40 to 50 points, that grants a pool of 20 or so AP in abilities to represent various animalistic abilities for use when shapeshifted.

 

The powers aren't free, you paid for them when you bought shapeshift, it is just that now form of bird includes working wings and form of fish lets you extract oxygen from water.

 

Hawksmoor

I gave this some thought on my drive home tonight ... costed some things out and here's what you're proposing under the current system (no rules changes made):

 

Shapeshift: Shape Shift (Sight, Hearing, Mental, Radio, Touch and Smell/Taste Groups, any shape), Cellular, Imitation [65AP/65RP]

plus

Shapeshift: Variable Power Pool, 20 base + 24 control cost, Linked (Shapeshift; Lesser Power need not be used proportionally to Power with which it is Linked; Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time; Lesser Instant Power can be used in any Phase in which greater Constant Power is in use; +0), Cosmic (+2) (50 Active Points); Limited Special Effect Very Common SFX (Only for powers apporpriate to Shifted Shape; -1/4) [50AP/44RP]

 

With this you're paying 109 Character Points to:

Shift into any form you can conceive of, that form can have up to 20 Active Points of powers appropriate to it ON TOP of any Powers you already have. You can use this SS to Imitate a specific individual (Imitate) and forensic tests show that you are in fact what you turned in to (Cellular).

 

Even if you assume that a Full Shapeshift is too expensive and cost it by half to 32 points you're paying 76 Character Points to do what you described.

 

Being able to alter, at will based on your shape & 20 Active Points on your character sheet is NO small feat and is extremely powerful. Both in concept and play.

 

And of course, the entire arguement is that there should be a Base Power that allows for not only massive versatility, but ultimately massive utility as well. For 40 or 50 points?

 

Aw hell, we'll be generous and drop it to a flat out 80AP Power: Shapeshift into any form, you can imitate forms as well as change at the cellular level and each SSed form has 20AP of powers to help you "become" the form (become a bird? you get some Flight, become a fish? you get to breath underwater and some swimming)

 

This is not a marginal capability we're talking about, in any game.

 

I personally think the 109 points of Full Shapdeshift plus a 20point VPP you can modify everytime you shift, no matter how often you do it, is appropriately costed - heck for most characters this kind of thing is their ENTIRE schtick - Beast Boy from Teen Titans for example. And heck - his has the limitations "Always has green skin" (possibly left off the Sight Group on his SS) and "Must be an animal"

 

Great, fine "shapeshift" doesn't work they way you 'feel' it should because turning into a bird doesn't give you flight - that's why we use more than one power to simulate concepts. There is rarely ever a 1Power answer to an entire concept. And a Shapeshifter is a concept - not just a power.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Shapeshift just turns you into the shape of a fish. It doesn't actually turn you INTO a fish. That's Transform or Multiform.

 

 

Now _this_ (except for that T-Form thing, of course ) I have always agreed with.

 

As far as where does it say it, well right there in the name: Shape Shift. And then there's a separate power called "MultiForm" that specifically allows you to become something else.

 

Going from the names alone, it has always seemed to me and my group that SS means you 'look like something' because you 'have changed your shape into the shape of that something.

 

Multiform, however, states that you actually take on an entirely different form, and you build that form as a separate entity-- a whole new you.

 

 

 

In spite of all the ribbing I've been giving G-A,

 

I'm going to say this:

I have never found SS to have a great deal of utility. Granted, that is mostly because of my apparently not-widely-held idea that you are just changing the shape of your body and not actually becoming something else. You look like it, but you aren't it. If you want to be it, either (I think I've mentioned this alread, but in case I haven't, here it is again) buy the appropriate powers and limitations and limited Disads (yes, I allow them, but at way low value) Linked to the SS, or get a multi form.

 

With that in mind, I find the current pricing of SS to be completely ridiculous.

 

I have had two players who had shape shifting characters (one a super, and one an alien race), and both of them existed before the 'official' Shape Shifting power did. As others have mentioned in this thread, the 'shapes' were simply SFX (and often limitations) on other powers.

 

When an official "Shape Shift" power was introduced, niether player opted to use it. It just wasn't practical from the get-go.

 

oops-- almost forgot--

 

I guess technically there were _three_ shape shifters in my gaming history:

 

in a tongue-in-cheek one-shot (finals week), one of the players made a 'shape shifter'/ Ninja who bought it as Stealth and Concealment at freaky high levels. His 'SFX' was that he turned into setting-appropriate furniture.

 

 

On the other side of the coin, at the current price levels, you _ought_ to be able to get more utility out of it than just the description states. But if you want to be loyal to the description, the cost needs a decimal shift. My own opinion, of course.

 

My own opinion, and not meant as degredation, I really think that the current Shape Shift is one of those examples of what happens when you try to over-complicate or over-specify. As it is now, with the sense tests and hyper-splintering of effects--

 

well frankly, it makes more sense to me, given the desire for elegance and a reasonable utility-to-cost ratio to simply have one simple power: Shape Shift. This power allows a characte to change his body and mimic the form of something else. His Characteristics and body mass remain unchanged.

 

Period. That's it. If you want to change into a fish with gills, buy 'breathe under water: only in fish form.' If you want to change _only_ vs sight and touch (and still have your personal characteristic sounds and stinks), well that's a _Limitation_ on the Shape Shift power now, isn't it?

 

My two cents.

 

After this, I'm 10-10; I'm interested, but I got nothing else to add.....

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Now _this_ (except for that T-Form thing, of course ) I have always agreed with.

 

As far as where does it say it, well right there in the name: Shape Shift. And then there's a separate power called "MultiForm" that specifically allows you to become something else.

 

Going from the names alone, it has always seemed to me and my group that SS means you 'look like something' because you 'have changed your shape into the shape of that something.

 

Multiform, however, states that you actually take on an entirely different form, and you build that form as a separate entity-- a whole new you.

 

 

 

In spite of all the ribbing I've been giving G-A,

 

I'm going to say this:

I have never found SS to have a great deal of utility. Granted, that is mostly because of my apparently not-widely-held idea that you are just changing the shape of your body and not actually becoming something else. You look like it, but you aren't it. If you want to be it, either (I think I've mentioned this alread, but in case I haven't, here it is again) buy the appropriate powers and limitations and limited Disads (yes, I allow them, but at way low value) Linked to the SS, or get a multi form.

 

With that in mind, I find the current pricing of SS to be completely ridiculous.

 

I have had two players who had shape shifting characters (one a super, and one an alien race), and both of them existed before the 'official' Shape Shifting power did. As others have mentioned in this thread, the 'shapes' were simply SFX (and often limitations) on other powers.

 

When an official "Shape Shift" power was introduced, niether player opted to use it. It just wasn't practical from the get-go.

 

oops-- almost forgot--

 

I guess technically there were _three_ shape shifters in my gaming history:

 

in a tongue-in-cheek one-shot (finals week), one of the players made a 'shape shifter'/ Ninja who bought it as Stealth and Concealment at freaky high levels. His 'SFX' was that he turned into setting-appropriate furniture.

 

 

On the other side of the coin, at the current price levels, you _ought_ to be able to get more utility out of it than just the description states. But if you want to be loyal to the description, the cost needs a decimal shift. My own opinion, of course.

 

My own opinion, and not meant as degredation, I really think that the current Shape Shift is one of those examples of what happens when you try to over-complicate or over-specify. As it is now, with the sense tests and hyper-splintering of effects--

 

well frankly, it makes more sense to me, given the desire for elegance and a reasonable utility-to-cost ratio to simply have one simple power: Shape Shift. This power allows a characte to change his body and mimic the form of something else. His Characteristics and body mass remain unchanged.

 

Period. That's it. If you want to change into a fish with gills, buy 'breathe under water: only in fish form.' If you want to change _only_ vs sight and touch (and still have your personal characteristic sounds and stinks), well that's a _Limitation_ on the Shape Shift power now, isn't it?

 

My two cents.

 

After this, I'm 10-10; I'm interested, but I got nothing else to add.....

no harm no foul on the ribbing - forcing me to think out my position is never a bad thing.

 

Here's some costing on Shapeshift as it stands:

Shapeshift into anyshape (vs "All senses") currently costs 45 points.

Cellular (blood type, DNA, Cell Shapeshifting) is +10 points.

Imitation (copy Shapeshift) is +10 points.

 

I would 1) simply combine everything into 1 Shapeshift Power called Shapeshift for 20 points - it works at all levels you want it to ("vs all senses) for 1 shape. 25 points for up to 4 shapes, 30 points for a group of shapes and 40 points for anyshape at all.

I would keep Cellular as an adder, but make it 5 points.

Imitation is redundant, good GMing and good RPing would automatically require a Player to have 1) knowledge of what they're imitating and 2) a Disguise skill and 3) there are other ways to "see through" an Imitator beyond what they look/sound/smell like, and no Adder will remove this RP issues (Such as mannerisms, speech patterns and simple things like handedness).

Now a full Shapeshift costs 45 points and gets you any level. When a character changes they must describe what parts they are shifting (scent, appearance, shape, mental pattern, voice) with every shift.

Limitations:

-1/4, SS does not alter a single "Sense" (voice always stays the same, can't alter Shape, etc..)

-1/2 SS does not alter 2 senses.

-3/4 SS does not alter up to 4 senses.

--

This removes a total of 20 points of the current SS "top end" cost, and is reduced my Limitations to 36/30/26 points respectively, barring any other Advantages or Adders.

 

IMO, SS does not have the same utility as, say, Desol which is 40 points. But it does have some utility and can be a very powerful thing in the right persons hands. A SS with the Shapeshift Power (either as it stands in5ER or as an altered version) is the perfect infiltrator and spy.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Well, slugging my way through this thread has managed to convince me to add Shapeshift to my list of broken powers, under most circumstances anyway.

 

Alas, this just persuades me to keep doing full metamorphs the way I've been doing them for years now... A Multiform with one other form, that form with shapeshift (limited to a form chosen at the activation of the multiform) And a big VPP (Also set at time of activating the multiform)

 

As things stand, I think what I'll be doing for Shape shift is treating it similar to Transform, and allow characters to "rob Peter to pay Paul" and shift around some of their points to cover the abilities of the new form.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

You all seemed to be getting on so nicely I thought I'd just leave you to it

 

Mind you, there's been some talk about costs, and that is quite a relevant issue.

 

What does a new shape actually give you? Well, all it gives you is the ability to fool someone into thinking you are something else.

 

No combat bonuses except maybe the odd surprise bonus, no movement....nothing.

 

In any given group, hero or villain, there is almost bound to be at least one character with enhanced senses. They can tell you are not what you seem to be, possibly even ID you for what you are, unless you spend a shed load on the SS power, and even then you can not mop up all the possible unusual senses that could get you. So, probably half the time against superpowered opposition, the power is not going to be much use. It only takes one to spot you then all the rest know. Moreover, even if you can change into 'anything' it has to have roughly human size and mass unless you add other powers, so that substantially limits you: you can't change into a flagpole, or spread out to cover the floor: you've basically got to be humansized, and that limits you to humans, some dogs, some furniture....a 100kg 6 foot seagull is going to attract attention no matter how finely rendered the feathers are

 

Compare that to, say, invisiblity, another 'perfect sense fooling power'. Even if there are one or two opponents who can detect you they can not usefully communicate that to the others - OK it scuppers your attempt to sneak past, but you retain all your combat bonuses against those who can not 'see' you. Moreover, although invisibility is theoretically more expensive, you need to buy far less to make it usefu: most people only target with sight so all you need to have a useful power is INVIS: SIGHT GROUP, so the actual cost is not that high at all, even if you do take the 'no fringe' adder.

 

So how do you solve this? You could re-invent the power, OR you could just re-cost it. The most useful bit of SS, far and away, across the board, IMO, is the 'imitation' adder. Make shapseshifting cheaper and imitation more expensive.

 

One other point: if it is SS:Touch that allows you to get through small gaps and escape bonds etc (anyone know if it gives you bonuses against grabs?), why bother buying SS:sight if all you want is to be 'rubbery deformation lad'? Becasue it makes sense that if you change shape then you are going to look different? Do me a favour.....

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Hmmmmm....

Building on some of the previous posts here...

 

I think I like the approach of buying Shapeshift "menu based", like life support.

Purchase sperate things... Shift Surface Appearance, shift body form: probably 3 levels... cosmetic, minor and major (to steal a page from transform), Shift Primal (power, psyche, cellular level) and whatever the heck else I think up...

 

Heres an idea about the whole "added powers"... rather than the rather cumbersome VPP approach, why not allow for point shifting, as I suggested above, but at a limited level (Say, equal to the total AP of the shapeshift power), with the ability to add to the max number of "manipulatable" at the 1 for 5 rate we see all over the place in the system. Probably maxed at twice the SS AP's

 

So if you throw 30 points into shapeshift, you can rearrange 30 points worth of character to better fit the form you've shifted into. IF you want serious changes tho, you could drop another 6 points into SS and now you can rearrange 60 points worth each form.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

This is not aimed in any particular direction, just anecdotal evidence. I'm playing a shapeshifter at present, Monster Girl. She can turn into monsters. She's great.

 

I tend to build them (actually the GM built all the characters, but I think the approach is good) with 2 or 3 MPs rather than a VPP, and save some points by linking to the shapeshift. (usually a size/density MP, a movement MP and a 'twinkly stuff' MP, where you have most of the offensive stuff. The GM was not keen on the new SS power so just basically looked at 4th edition and called it 30 points, END to activate makes it 37.

 

Now I know this is far more restrictive than a VPP or a multiform, buy boy howdy is it quicker: The form has tough hide, claws and wings, we pick slot 3, 2 and 5, and we are away.

 

Now I know you can write out the various MF/VPP combinations before hand, but for a true metamorph who can be almost anything, that often takes a lot of time and effort and still is not going to cover all the bases.

 

Arguably MGs 'shapeshifting' is just the manifestation of her powers so she doesn't need SS at all, but it is not a bad or particularly expensive way to do it (say SS costs 30 points and each MP is a 30 point pool with (say) 5 ultra slots, you are saving (45/1.5)x3 = 45 points on the build with the linkage. Sounds fair to me. More to the point it works. OK there's stuff MG can not do, as we are picking from lists, but it is not too much of a problem in practice: 3x5 slot multis gives you 125 possible combinations, and. logically enough, if you are able to drain some of her ability to change her form, all the other powers get weaker too. Not bad.

 

There is a part of me that loves the idea of a SS letting you shift characteristics and powers round at will, there is another part of me that just wants to get on with the game. Sometimes you can't do both.

[KA.]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

So Kent, what do think about this subject?

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I really don't know.

I posted a couple of times earlier in the thread, but I have mixed feelings.

It sounds like 5ER actually allowed that with the right combination of Adders you could achieve what the 4th Ed Shapeshift did.

The problem is, it still sounds like there is enough difference of opinion about what the rules 'really' mean, that someone would have trouble building a Shapeshifter that could move from one GM to another.

I know there are always some considerations there, but this topic seems like it isn't really hashed out yet.

I think my major sticking point is the individual sense adders.

It makes this power 'feel' more like Invisibility or Images, rather than something that actually changes your character into something else.

Even the "cellular" adder just seems to imply that you can 'fool' a higher degree of inspection, not that you really 'changed'.

 

If Multiform is the only book-legal way to go, (which is pretty goofy when there is a power called Shapeshift) then I think we need to have an Official Adder/Limitation/Option.

 

I was thinking along the lines of something like:

"Unlimited Forms. All forms have the same Basic point distribution."

Which means that you could turn into anything you wanted, but you could not redistribute the points.

So you could be Bob, or Bob the Chair, or Bob the Puma, or Bob the Broom, but you would have the same character sheet as Bob.

 

If Bob has:

STR 10

DEX 15

CON 15

 

Then Bob the Puma does not get to have:

STR 30

DEX 25

CON 20

 

However, to allow for things like turning into a Fish, or Bird, you could allow Bob to have a Small VPP, so that he could get minor things like a little Flight or Life Support appropriate to his new form.

 

The VPP would be Limited by something like "Only Powers Appropriate to Form"

and have some kind of hard limit on the points you could put into it.

 

I am not saying this is a great solution, it is just the first thing I have come up with.

 

I would really rather see the Current Shapeshift renamed as Illusionary Form or something like that, and have an actual Shapeshift power, but I don't see that happening.

 

KA.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

One other point: if it is SS:Touch that allows you to get through small gaps and escape bonds etc (anyone know if it gives you bonuses against grabs?)' date=' why bother buying SS:sight if all you want is to be 'rubbery deformation lad'? Becasue it makes sense that if you change shape then you are going to look different? Do me a favour.....[/quote']

Obvisouly the sticking point in this discussion is whether SS changes you are is just the "perfect image"

 

According to 5ER and the way I'm reading the various sections - it actually changes you.

 

Now, because of a rather cumbersone costing structure using "senes" it starts to really confuse.

 

SS:Touch allows you to morph your body around, pretzel your arms, turn them into sily straws or what have you. It stands to reason that someone looking at your Silly Straw Arm sees that it's changed shapes - no SS:Sight needed; However - it looks like an arm that has changed into the shape of a Silly Straw, which is kind of disgusting really. If you add on SS:Sight to that you can change your arm into a Orange Silly Straw, because now you can alter the appearance of the Silly Straw. Someone going up and sniffing it will smell a person, not plastic. Someone taking a small sample with a scalpel will discover it is human cells not bits of plastic... etc...

 

I think SS should have been divorced from the Senses Nomenclature and it's own terms brought in - sure it's another set of words to add to the game, but the effect is the same:

 

Shapeshift:

Shape

Appearance

Scent/Taste

Mental Signature

Radio/Power Signature

Sound/Voice

 

I think that wording would clear up a significant portion of peoples peoblems.

 

And no - I still don't advocate a single power allowing one to "adjust" parts of their character sheet.

Edit: And come to think of it - what's the difference between costing out a VPP that allows you to change out 20AP worth of Powers at will and buying any other power that does the same? Theoretically they should cost the same amount of points since they're doing the same thing.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I'm easily confused, g-a, you know that:)

 

I think one thing to consider is this: if you do it right, lump everything in, then you might as well buy multiform as shapeshift. In a way SS is just a limited version of MF.

 

The only thing I think you need ss for, really, is changing shape.

 

Not looking like other stuff (images), or changing into other stuff (MF). Hell, in many ways i'd rather use images for some sort of disguise power: not quite so absolute. If you want it absolute, why not have an adder for images: No roll.

 

But changing shape, you don't get elsewhere. Limited desolid? Maybe, but I don't think so. Stretching? Well it feels like you should get thinner if you are 5 times taller and the same mass, but you don't.

 

One little power, or adder, that enables you to change shape to fit through gaps and escape bonds. 10 points.

 

Then we can bury Shapeshift in the back yard and get on with our lives.

[LoresLost]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I have been trying to do a metamorph that is basicly a Mystique clone (with some noddes to DC's Elasticgirl). Looking at it, I wanted a character that can be come anyone. I started to work on this under Shape Shift(limited forms, human only, imitation, celluar and make-over adders) because I wanted to keep the skills and basic charicrisics of the character.

 

As I looked over Shape Shift in 5er and read the FAQ on Shape shift, it seems to me that a Plastic Man and Mr. Fantastic would have Shape Shift Touch (which has been pointed out is a misnoer).

 

Reasoning: Touch allows you to change form by 5er and the FAQ, This means that you actually change shape. This effects how you are precervide visually eg:you are now a human flesh colored Python with a tuft of hair(if you have it) on its head. The FAQ states that touch alone is all you would need to fit in a place that as that snake of that size can go(slip out of that cell and sither through storm drain).

 

If I were GMing I would consider all Shape Shifts to require touch. Touch would be the primary cost, not sight(sight and hearing by itself would not be allowed, that is images or invisiblity and should be bought as such). This means that 'sight' would only allow you to change color to match your new form and hearing, mental and special (radio/other) should be the same.

 

So here is my break down:

Base ShapeShift ('TOUCH') = 10pts

color adder ('sight') = 3pts

sound(speech/vocal) = 3pts

smell/taste = 3pts

mental = 3pts

speical = 6pts

make-over = 3pts

mimicry = 5pts (?) * should this be done as a skill(?)

celluar = 5pts

 

My 2 cents on this question.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

No, it doesn't. Bringing in multiple perception points (two or more people) and then comparing them will bring us to a Concensus Reality; two people pick up an object, one notes "It is orange, with some yellow-green, sort of oval and has a rough texture." the other "It's a dark orange with brigter spots of yellow, shperical and a bit squichy and does not have a smooth surface." Both will agree they are holding "A fruit called an orange."

 

(Even is it's a shapeshifted box.)

 

But if it is a shapeshifted box, perceiving it as an orange and never knowing about it's shapeshifted nature will never make it not a shapeshifted box. Basically what I was saying is that an objective reality cannot be denied simply because we can't think of a way to perceive it objectively.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

No, I would allow SS:Sight and SS:Hearing by themselves. Think about it SS:Sight is you changing your skin color, hair color, eye color and other such features.

SS:Hearing is you changing your voice, or possibly your footfalls to sound like a pack of rabid squirrels.

SS: Touch is changing your body around into different things (~100kg Snake, ~100kg floor tile, etc...)

 

Start combining them and you're moving into your Mystique Clone arena.

 

I agree that SS:Touch should be the basic SS, and cost 10pts. Everything else should cost 3 or 5pts. Leaning towards 3, as SS really does have limited, if flexible, utility.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

But if it is a shapeshifted box' date=' perceiving it as an orange and never knowing about it's shapeshifted nature will never make it [i']not[/i] a shapeshifted box. Basically what I was saying is that an objective reality cannot be denied simply because we can't think of a way to perceive it objectively.

I'm no so much denying it, well I am to a degree, if there's no way to percieve it objectively then in practice it may as well not exist. That's my view - but I have a hard time accepting absolutes of any nature.

 

Ha ... reading your sig and then looking at the conversation all I had to go put on "Who do you want to be"

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

We have to move away from normal philosophical discussions of perception when talking about the contextual use of language in the extremely unique RPG play experience environment.

Absolutely true. And the same can be said about interpreting or assuming the nature and purpose of a game mechanic based on an arbitrary lable, such as Shape Shift.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Absolutely true. And the same can be said about interpreting or assuming the nature and purpose of a game mechanic based on an arbitrary lable' date=' such as Shape Shift.[/quote']

That statement should be printed in giant letters on page one of the book. Just because it says Energy Blast does not mean it has anything to do with Energy. and just because it says Shapeshift does not mean you can turn into a fish with it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

So we've come full circle again with a couple of possible fixes:

1) An option for Transform to affect yourself but only to something lesser.

2) A new Power Construct that might be similar to Multiform but with different mechanics and restrictions.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

What's this about fixes? I've yet to see anything that suggests something is broken.

 

Sorry I wasn't clearer. Yes, it's fixes, since it fixes those areas that are missing with the current system. However, I'm not suggesting getting rid of what currently exists either, since it fills in specific gaps in other areas. Now whether Images could have options to fill in those gaps instead is another question.

 

Again, what's missing?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I have been trying to do a metamorph that is basicly a Mystique clone (with some noddes to DC's Elasticgirl). Looking at it, I wanted a character that can be come anyone. I started to work on this under Shape Shift(limited forms, human only, imitation, celluar and make-over adders) because I wanted to keep the skills and basic charicrisics of the character.

 

As I looked over Shape Shift in 5er and read the FAQ on Shape shift, it seems to me that a Plastic Man and Mr. Fantastic would have Shape Shift Touch (which has been pointed out is a misnoer).

In my opinion, neither of those characters would have the Power Shape Shift. They have Stretching, and maybe Desolidification with some Limitations. A generous GM (such as myself in some cases), might write them up with a Shape Shift versus Touch Group if all the could do was squeeze through some cracks. Then again, that might just be Contortionist bought as a Power.

 

If I were GMing I would consider all Shape Shifts to require touch. Touch would be the primary cost, not sight(sight and hearing by itself would not be allowed, that is images or invisiblity and should be bought as such). This means that 'sight' would only allow you to change color to match your new form and hearing, mental and special (radio/other) should be the same.

 

You are falling into the common misconception that Shape Shift must involve physically changing shape. The name "Shape Shift" is used, I believe, for the same reason the names "Energy Blast" and "Missile Deflection" were given to those Powers; a common SFX of them is exactly what the Power is called, but in all cases, that SFX is by far not the limit of their application.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

That statement should be printed in giant letters on page one of the book. Just because it says Energy Blast does not mean it has anything to do with Energy. and just because it says Shapeshift does not mean you can turn into a fish with it.

 

Such a statement is in the book, just not on the first page. Can't post a page reference since I don't have The Book with me, but I believe it's mentioned under the rules for Special Effects in the beginning of the Powers section.