Metamorphosis

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Yes, I know, but I want a rabbit.

 

I sometimes wonder why we need rules at all if the GMs are good enough

 

The problem (to me) with some of the thinking* behind some of the rules is that is it put there to head off abuses. If I can change into a 20 foot python, then I can effectively stretch 20 feet, can't I so I can use my shapeshift as a form of stretching...

 

On the other side of the coin, you can't scale a 10-story building, play rock-paper-scissors, use a phone, work a door knob, or get into black-tie restraunts. Nor can you leap very far, or hail a cab. And you'll need both seats on most planes.

 

It seems to balance.

 

That, and it's kind of why I like P's idea on the shifting back and two of character points.

 

though honestly, the more I read this thread, the more I really have to slide over to the position of "I don't need this power in my game. For years we have handled SS perfectly fine as a mere SFX for other powers, and with the rules and such currently governing SS, I think my own game was better off without it." That group, up above. The more I see it, the more a VPP with 'shape shift' sfx cleanly represents it.

 

So I suppose SS isn't really broken; just redundant.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Yes' date=' I know, but I want a rabbit.[/quote']

Ooh, ooh, ooh! Are we giving out rabbits now? I want one too! Me, me, me!

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I don't see how it's prohibited by the rules. Are you referring to the 10% size alteration? I would interpret that to mean overall size' date=' not each dimention (length, width, height) individually. Otherwise, you could never become a snake or squeeze through openings or do a hundred other very basic things the power is meant to do.[/quote']

Actually, you would be wrong in your interpretation of the rule, per Steve Long.

 

My discussion with him over this particular issue left me with a clear understanding. If fitting through bars or squeezing through a crack required an alteration of your body by more than 10%, then you must use Desolid to be Book Legal or Rules Legal.

 

He also made it quite clear that any GM can ignore this, but this would then be classified as a House Rule. Which is perfectly fine.

 

So you can't become a snake that fits through mouse holes and the like, even if everyone sees you as a snake that can fit through a mouse hole. At least, not without Desolid. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Last I checked' date=' the GIR was inventing new game mechanics to fill supposed gaps in the existing rules. Or have I confused it with some other group you're into?[/quote']

Dust Raven, are you a lurker of GIR?

 

If so, you obviously haven't been reading the threads thoroughly. Although some of us, mainly me, have offered up "Alternative/Optional" possible mechanics, it is not the purpose of the group to "Replace" any of the existing mechanics. Although I think there might be some good arguments on a couple, but even those wouldn't really change the system beyond making it a little more consistent.

 

So, yes, you've got a wrong impression of the group and its purpose. But hey, that's ok. It's given me a chance to clarify any misinformation that may have been going around. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[TaxiMan]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Regarding the "moving through tiny openings" Desolid-esque aspect of Shapeshifting' date=' my inclination would be to allow that only in cases where someone took vs. Sight along with "Any Shape" or at least defined a shape appropriate too such movement.[/quote']

 

Just to be clear, Shapeshift vs. Sight allows you to change your coloring - a character can turn green or plaid, but can't look like a plant. The body is still shaped like a human (assuming that's what it started out as).

 

Shapeshift vs. Touch allows you to (a) make your skin feel like fur and ( rearrange your mass to the shape of a wolf. The wolf will still have your face stretched out over its muzzle, and will have weirdly distorted clothes (assuming SS lets you change your costume in your campaign).

 

Not poking Brainstorm, he makes excellent points (but his paragraphs are too long!). But as I read it, I thought there was a little ... fuzziness about the sight / touch effects.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

That could work. I'll have to get together (onlinish) with those of us fanatics and find out how formal/informal we'd like it to be. But definately sounds like a great place for it.

Just let me know if & when you'd like it set up, and what you want it called.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Just to be clear' date=' Shapeshift vs. Sight allows you to change your coloring - a character can turn green or plaid, but can't look like a plant. The body is still shaped like a human (assuming that's what it started out as).[/quote']

Not at all!!! Shapeshift vs. Sight certainly allows you to look like a plant. However, if someone moves up to you and moves their hands over you, they will feel a human body, not a plant (or at least somehow be able to tell that you are not a plant by touch).

 

Shapeshift vs. Touch allows you to (a) make your skin feel like fur and ( rearrange your mass to the shape of a wolf. The wolf will still have your face stretched out over its muzzle, and will have weirdly distorted clothes (assuming SS lets you change your costume in your campaign).

Yes, you can make yourself feel like you have fur and like you are in the shape of a wolf. You will still visually be easily recognizable as a human in some fashion, however (unless there are other elements involved). Whether your actual physical shape is different or you simply fool the sense of touch of others (like you would with Mental Illusions) is kind of what the whole current discussion is about. So, could you then wear an actual sweater knitted for a wolf, or would a human-knitted sweater simply feel like a wolf sweater when you put it on?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I don't see how it's prohibited by the rules. Are you referring to the 10% size alteration? I would interpret that to mean overall size, not each dimention (length, width, height) individually. Otherwise, you could never become a snake or squeeze through openings or do a hundred other very basic things the power is meant to do.

 

One more attempt at summarizing the debate (or at least my take on it, and in fact, almost all of the debates we have here):

 

How do interpret the rules:

Do you interpret them so that players get appropriate utility for the points they've spent?

Or does your interpretation not give them the appropriate utility for the points they've spent?

 

If I've spent 40 points on SS: Any Shape, and the GM won't let me form a 10' ladder, I'm going to call "Bad GM!" Does anyone think that would be an "abuse" of the 40 points I spent?

 

This isn't the Bible. This isn't the Constitution. It's a game. Steve's intent is not the core value. Literal interprataion is not the core value. Elegence of game design is not the core value. The core values are fairness, playability, and flexibility.

 

Sometimes rules are broken, and sometimes GMs are broken.

 

Excelent! Couldn't have said it better myself. Repped.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Yes, I know, but I want a rabbit.

 

I sometimes wonder why we need rules at all if the GMs are good enough

We don't need the rules if the GM is good enough.

 

The problem (to me) with some of the thinking* behind some of the rules is that is it put there to head off abuses. If I can change into a 20 foot python, then I can effectively stretch 20 feet, can't I so I can use my shapeshift as a form of stretching...

I wouldn't automatically think so. Can the python be active at both ends of his body at the same time? If coiled up, can it stretch out to full lenth and retract in a single Phase? No, they can't, so there is no stretching. All they really do is take up a lenthier piece of real estate.

 

Not so much a matter for the sensible application of a GM (or is that the other way round?) ore for the sensible application of character design: don't build a variable metamorph without at least SOME stretching.

 

My point (if, indeed I have one) is that the power as writ is difficult to apply. You might be able to get around this by leaving the rules as they are and with interesting suggestions as to how to create certain effects, I dunno. Maybe TUM will solve all our problems. I hope so

 

 

 

*apparently

I would say Shape Shift, as writ, is not so difficult to apply. I suppose the core of that believe is the complete divorcing of SFX from game mechanics. "changing shape" is a SFX, while appearing/interacting differently with the world is a game mechanic.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I sometimes wonder why we need rules at all if the GMs are good enough

Who said GMs are good enough? Not me.

 

The problem (to me) with some of the thinking* behind some of the rules is that is it put there to head off abuses. If I can change into a 20 foot python, then I can effectively stretch 20 feet, can't I so I can use my shapeshift as a form of stretching...

Not really. That would assume that a 20 foot python could support itself on the tip of its tail and grab or attack things 20 feet away. A normal person can reach from his own hex to grab or attack in an adjacent hex. 20 feet is only about 3 hexes, so it's only one additional hex of reach. And it isn't even the regular Stretching power, but at most a heavily limited form of it: No Momentum Damage, Range Modifier Applies, Always Direct, and perhaps others. It adds up to less than a 3 point power. Is that abusive for the 30-50 points spent on Shapeshift?

 

Actually' date=' you would be wrong in your interpretation of the rule, per Steve Long.[/quote']

I'd say he's wrong in his interpretation of the rules, per me.

 

My discussion with him over this particular issue left me with a clear understanding. If fitting through bars or squeezing through a crack required an alteration of your body by more than 10%, then you must use Desolid to be Book Legal or Rules Legal.

A "normal" 200 cm person (heroically sized, no doubt, but the standard for the Hero System) can, without the use of Shapeshift, Stretching, or any other Power, simply raise his arms, thus extending his vertical reach to considerably more than 220 cm. Standing tip-toe, he can probably reach something at least 250 cm off the ground. With SS, he can then reach at least 275 cm, even with Steve's literal restictive ruling.

 

His ruling makes even less sense when you consider that normal people can alter their size/reach by more than ten percent in many perfectly normal ways: Reach up with your arms, bending over, turning sideways, crouching, crawling, exhaling, etc. If any 10% limit is to be applied to the SS power, it must be applied after (that is, in addition to) all the normal body movements that a character can make.

 

He also made it quite clear that any GM can ignore this, but this would then be classified as a House Rule. Which is perfectly fine.

Is their any GM out there who *wouldn't* ignore this or have some house rule to deal with this and make it fair, to make SS's utility comensurate with its cost? If so, I'd call that a bad GM.

 

If they paid a fair amount of points for it, let 'em do it.

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Hey! Whoah there cowboy! (8^D)

 

Please don't equate my discussions with Steve Long as agreeing with him or suggesting that they make any sense. (8^D)

 

I'm simply pointing out that the Author of the rules has clarified what those rules mean and what their intent was as far as application.

 

If they don't make sense to you, wonderful, make as many house rules as you want. But leave me out of it. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[schir1964]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I would say Shape Shift' date=' as writ, is not so difficult to apply. I suppose the core of that believe is the complete divorcing of SFX from game mechanics. "changing shape" is a SFX, while appearing/interacting differently with the world is a game mechanic.[/quote']

Exactly! Very well put. The mechanics are restricting where SFX perhaps might not imply any restriction.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Dust Raven]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I'd say he's wrong in his interpretation of the rules' date=' per me.[/quote']

 

Damn, time to spread more Rep around.

 

My assessment:

 

Steve Long wrote the rules.

Steve Long understands the rules.

There is more than on employee and writer working for DOJ

Steve Long's application of the rules may be based not only upon his own understanding and intent, but those of his collegues as well.

Steve Long is also under a lot of pressure and might not be thinking strait when he interprets any given rule.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Steve Long wrote the rules.

Steve Long understands the rules.

....

I bought the rules.

I use the rules.

I'm the customer.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I bought the rules.

I use the rules.

I'm the customer.

...and the customer is always a fight. Errr...RIGHT. Right. The customer is always right. Yeah. I meant to say that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Wthin the context of your Game you are right. Which is what really matters.

 

Since the Boards take things to a more universal level, we tend to argue at the System Level rather than the Game Level. In which case Steve trumps - and Steve will continue to trump right up until a group sits down at a table and decides a rule isn't working for them and alters it. At which point the Game trumps.

 

From my POV, for the context of any arguement on the boards Steve is Right. If you state you're using house rules because you feel something different from Steve you have done two things: 1) Removed yourself from the current conversation regarding universal applications of the Rules/System. 2) Automatically become correct in your statement, so long as it pertains to your Game/Group.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

From my POV' date=' for the context of any arguement on the boards Steve is Right. If you state you're using house rules because you feel something different from Steve you have done two things: 1) Removed yourself from the current conversation regarding universal applications of the Rules/System. 2) Automatically become correct in your statement, so long as it pertains to your Game/Group.[/quote']

 

 

well-stated and conciliatory? you deserve rep but I don't spread it around enough...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

We don't need the rules if the GM is good enough.

 

...but as we have rules, we can assume that the GMs are NOT good enough, wich means we need to make the rules clear, concise and functional.

 

 

I wouldn't automatically think so. Can the python be active at both ends of his body at the same time? If coiled up' date=' can it stretch out to full lenth and retract in a single Phase? No, they can't, so there is no stretching. All they really do is take up a lenthier piece of real estate.[/quote']

 

This is like the silly situation with stretching isn't it:

 

OK I have 5" of combat stretching, which means I can stretch my arm out 10m in front of me and hit someone, and I can swing my other arm 10m out behind me and hit someone, but that means I can, in effect stretch 20m....erm...

 

Don't get caught up with what a snake can and can not do: you have not changed into a snake, you are just a 20 foot long piece of metamorphic protoplasm and, if you can change into ANYTHING then there is no good reason each end can not sprout a fanged mouth and bite...but the rules will not allow it, and nor with they allow that old chestnut the 10 foot ladder, ridiculous as that may seem. The answer, IMO, is that you want to do this stuff, you have to buy an appropriate power to do it over and above shapeshift, or that is not the way your power works: growth/stretching sound favourite. Pity it doesn't mention that in the rules. Mind you, if it did it would be pointing out the strictly limited utility of shapeshift and underlining the poor costing structure. I'm thinking that Duke Bushido is right: as writ we don't need it for shapeshifting. Impersonating presidents, smelling of cinnamon, and fooling lie detectors, it works for....all mucking about with senses, NOT having any kind of physical effect.

 

 

I would say Shape Shift' date=' as writ, is not so difficult to apply. I suppose the core of that believe is the complete divorcing of SFX from game mechanics. "changing shape" is a SFX, while appearing/interacting differently with the world is a game mechanic.[/quote']

 

I would say that as this thread alone is now up to 17 pages and it is not, by a long chalk, the first of its kind you are, with respect, wrong about the ease of application.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

OK I have 5" of combat stretching' date=' which means I can stretch my arm out 10m in front of me and hit someone, and I can swing my other arm 10m out behind me and hit someone, but that means I can, in effect stretch 20m....erm...[/quote']

Read Stretching again ... you can't do that. You can stretch 5" in one direction or the other. Or 2.5" in both directions.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Read Stretching again ... you can't do that. You can stretch 5" in one direction or the other. Or 2.5" in both directions.

 

 

That was the point I was so inadequately trying to illustrate: each arm will stretch 5" but not simultanously. Unless they are both stretching in the same direction, then it is OK. Seems odd to me, but only from the POV of 'reality' - from a game balance POV it makes perfect sense

[gewing]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

Just a bit of a straw poll (without, even, the 'poll' bit), given that 'The Ultimate Metamorph' (TUM) is being produced even as we speak: are you keen on shapeshift being a power that (basically) perfectly fools senses, or should it be some sort of body effecting power that (actually) does change your shape.

 

You may surmise, from my phrasing of the question, which way my sympathies lie

 

 

The latter.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

That was the point I was so inadequately trying to illustrate: each arm will stretch 5" but not simultanously. Unless they are both stretching in the same direction' date=' then it is OK. Seems odd to me, but only from the POV of 'reality' - from a game balance POV it makes perfect sense [/quote']

No matter what you do it all comes down to sacraficing "reality" for "game balance" otherwise why have rules? Look at Combat (in any system) ... does it accurately reflect real life? Not by a long shot, never will as long as we're attempting to simulate a dynamic situation - you can get close but in the end for Playability (and isn't that what Game Balance is all about) you will divide combat into manageable pieces to avoid confusion and maximize daramatic fun. Same with anything else ... it seems that many "problems and fixes" people bring up are simply an inability to Suspend Disbelief to Play instead of Be Reality.

 

And technically - Stretching allows "One Body Part" so even both arms can't stretch 10" in the same direction. It makes some sense of you can stretch 10" total, divided up amongst all your limbs as you see fit. It's not 'I can always reach 10" ' it's "I have up to 10" of increased body length at any given time"

 

I've noticed that, and this is not meant to be a negative critasism, you tend to have an idea of what a power is supposed to do - regardless of what the power actually does do - and get upset with the system when you find out it doesn't meet your expectations. The problem isn't you and it isn't the system - it's your interactions with the system not meeting your personal expectations, a sort of Disconnect exists.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I've noticed that' date=' and this is not meant to be a negative critasism, you tend to have an idea of what a power is supposed to do - regardless of what the power actually does do - and get upset with the system when you find out it doesn't meet your expectations. The problem isn't you and it isn't the system - it's your interactions with the system not meeting your personal expectations, a sort of Disconnect exists.[/quote']

 

Well, to be honest I think it is more likely to happen with Hero than many other systems due to Hero's USP. Powers in Hero aer not powers in the sense of other games, they are game effects and we use them to construct powers.

 

The problem is that the name the game effects have sometimes been given can draw a picture in people's brains - such as multiform and even energy blast. There are expectations built up before the first word of the description is read.

 

I love the Hero system and think that I have my head round the way things are done but even then I still find myself drawn to a particular power as 'the way the system wants me to do this' because of its name rather than looking for the most appropriate game effect to use.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

.........

 

And technically - Stretching allows "One Body Part" so even both arms can't stretch 10" in the same direction. It makes some sense of you can stretch 10" total, divided up amongst all your limbs as you see fit. It's not 'I can always reach 10" ' it's "I have up to 10" of increased body length at any given time"

 

I've noticed that, and this is not meant to be a negative critasism, you tend to have an idea of what a power is supposed to do - regardless of what the power actually does do - and get upset with the system when you find out it doesn't meet your expectations. The problem isn't you and it isn't the system - it's your interactions with the system not meeting your personal expectations, a sort of Disconnect exists.

 

I've only got FRED with me but I can't see where it says 'one body part' in there - maybe it was clarified in 5er; I'll check when I get home. Mind you, I'm missing the point there, aren't I? Even if it does not say it, that is how the power works...

 

You criticism is quite right and I'm aware of my approach to things. As Doc Democracy says though, this tend to be more of a problem with Hero than other systems. Anyone else would just come up with a slip rule or let you get away with it. hero can't because it is a points based system and you have to be able to pretty exactly measure utility for cost.

 

My general approach is almost always 'how would I expect it to work?' - I don't think my expectations are usually that far out (well sometimes....), and the reason I take that approach is that if I am GMing I don't want to have to be looking rules up when someone wants to do - well - anything, and as a player I want to be able to assume that the game world works basically like this one but with superpowers.

 

Rules that jar play experiences are generally bad rules. Getting from one end of a session to another without having to consult the book at all is an ideal situation for me - the flow is everything. it might surprise you to know that generally happens . I know what I'm like when i'm on the boards, but when we are flying through the city and beating on supervillains the game system becomes transparent - almost irrelevant: it has done its job, fired our imaginations and sparked a story, and we are in there enjoying the real fire

 

In fact, I'd almost (if I was one for introspection) think that my nit-picking HERE is a direct result of my laisser-faire attitude to the rules IN GAME. I'm trying to make sure there is nothing that reminds me I'm only playing a game, and the best way to ensure that (IMO) is to have a game that conforms to expectations so that you can KNOW how to deal with game mechanics without thinking on them: I'm trying to make the road ahead as smooth as possible before I travel it, so that I can just enjoy the speed and exhilaration and not worry too much about breaking an axle.

 

By and large Hero is fantastic for this as everything tends to be built up from basic principles anyway BUT there are a few rules that, whilst they make sense from a game balance and design POV, tend to interfere with my perception of game reality. They are the ones I WILL be nit picking about. I trust you and the others will keep me in some sort of check

[RDU Neil]

Re: Metamorphosis

 

I've only got FRED with me but I can't see where it says 'one body part' in there - maybe it was clarified in 5er; I'll check when I get home. Mind you, I'm missing the point there, aren't I? Even if it does not say it, that is how the power works...

 

You criticism is quite right and I'm aware of my approach to things. As Doc Democracy says though, this tend to be more of a problem with Hero than other systems. Anyone else would just come up with a slip rule or let you get away with it. hero can't because it is a points based system and you have to be able to pretty exactly measure utility for cost.

 

My general approach is almost always 'how would I expect it to work?' - I don't think my expectations are usually that far out (well sometimes....), and the reason I take that approach is that if I am GMing I don't want to have to be looking rules up when someone wants to do - well - anything, and as a player I want to be able to assume that the game world works basically like this one but with superpowers.

 

Rules that jar play experiences are generally bad rules. Getting from one end of a session to another without having to consult the book at all is an ideal situation for me - the flow is everything. it might surprise you to know that generally happens . I know what I'm like when i'm on the boards, but when we are flying through the city and beating on supervillains the game system becomes transparent - almost irrelevant: it has done its job, fired our imaginations and sparked a story, and we are in there enjoying the real fire

 

In fact, I'd almost (if I was one for introspection) think that my nit-picking HERE is a direct result of my laisser-faire attitude to the rules IN GAME. I'm trying to make sure there is nothing that reminds me I'm only playing a game, and the best way to ensure that (IMO) is to have a game that conforms to expectations so that you can KNOW how to deal with game mechanics without thinking on them: I'm trying to make the road ahead as smooth as possible before I travel it, so that I can just enjoy the speed and exhilaration and not worry too much about breaking an axle.

 

By and large Hero is fantastic for this as everything tends to be built up from basic principles anyway BUT there are a few rules that, whilst they make sense from a game balance and design POV, tend to interfere with my perception of game reality. They are the ones I WILL be nit picking about. I trust you and the others will keep me in some sort of check

 

A brilliant summation of exactly how I game with Hero as well. And a response to Dust Raven and others who think we are all just bad mouthing Hero...

 

No... what we are doing is working out the kinks... picking the nits... here on the boards... so when we go back to the actual play experience, all that is taken care of and we just "flow." The story just happens and we aren't bogged down with minutia and looking up rules.

 

As Sean indicated... it is when a rule breaks the flow... when it jars with our perceptions of "how the story should go" that is when we start picking at the rules...

 

... when a random killing attack generates more stun than god allows in one shot, and we are jarred from our story...

 

... when the stretching guy wants to squeeze between the bars of of a jail cell and someone says, "You can't do that!"...

 

... when the Cosmic Draino zaps your character and you spend the next twenty minutes refiguring every cost and characteristic and adjusting power levels accordingly... then Post Segment 12 appears and you have to calculate all over again so instead you tear your character sheet into bits...

 

 

These are all areas where... IMO of course... Hero breaks down because it breaks my verisimilitude. As Ghost-Angel points out above... it is a disconnect between what the system does... and the play expectation. BUT EVERYONE WILL HAVE A DIFFERENT POINT AT WHERE THIS DISCONNECT TAKES PLACE! It will happen for everyone, at some point, but it happens for some easier than others. The fact that we may rail against some rulings is not because we hate Hero... but because it is SO DAMN CLOSE to being perfect in some areas that when it breaks down, it is even MORE jarring than a system that is pretty "eh" to begin with. I play Savage Worlds/Necessary Evil as well. While it has it's charms, the play experience is much more "game like" than Hero. Could be due to lack of familiarity... but could be that the mechanics... while softer than Hero, seem more arbitrary as well. When things don't work in SW/NE, I'm like "eh... whatever" because over all, that is how I feel about the system. It is some scratches in a common drinking glass, where things going wrong with Hero is a flaw in a piece of Waterford Crystal. All the more jarring for marring perfection.

 

Ok... so I'm getting hyperbolic here, but you get the picture.