Sci-fi wear swords?

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

Personally, I feel it really boils down to a deep desire to overlap our two favorite genres...

 

Frankie: "I wanna blaster!"

Billy: "I wanna magic sword!"

GM: "Let's play Star Wars! Yay!"

 

That comes across as more denigrating than I intended, but whatever. The point being that we can justify all we want, but really, we use giant swords because they look really cool. A lot cooler than a lame gun. In the right circumstances. Sometimes lame guns look very not lame. Point being - people like to have their cake, and eat it, too!

[Lightray]

In Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series, everyone on the planet Darkover uses swords because of the Compact -- an agreement between the noble families that no one would use weapons with a range further than their reach.

 

That's because their civilization was nearly destroyed by a period of warfare where they used terrible weapons created by their own psionic powers. Some of these were similar to radioactivity, others more like Greek fire, but all were apparently devastating. They had to stop using those weapons, or everybody would have ended up dead.

 

One of the cute points in the series is that, when the Terrans show up, the Darkoverians think they're uncivilized barbarians because they use ranged weapons. The Terrans, of course, think the Darkoverians are a bunch of superstitious savages.

 

Overall, the series is okay, but I found it better for ideas than for entertainment value. It was kind of a precursor to the Mercedes Lackey type of fiction, with much in the way of soap operatic melodrama.

[The Mad GM]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

1) only when facing someone who is good with a sword is skill in a sword actually necessary. Knives and blades are still very good at killing people and easier to come by than a gun - especially in the kitchen

2) as do all combat (possibly it's the running, but most likely it is the adrenaline and need to seek cover constantly). However most of the energy from medieval combats is from carrying armour and a shield, not wielding the sword.

4) critical misses happen in roleplaying games, not real life (or at least never at the odds they occur in rpgs)

5) there are no long distances onboard a ship. Guns do not kill instantly either. Unless you're a very good shot.

 

I'd also add - guns are easier to detect than swords, they require some form of explosive, even if not made of metal. Swords need not be metal.

 

Plus there's the KISS principle. Less moving parts in a sword = less chance of breakdown at critical times (or dud bullets, or misfires, or gun jams, or wet ammunition, or breach breaks, or ricochets)

 

1 - My characters always seem to run up against trained opponents.

2 - I don't have enough real-world experience to argue that - but from a game point, guns cost no end.

4 - I had a friend (this is real life) open up his kneecap down to the bone with an ill considered swing of essentially a machette. I nearly lost a toe to an axe while splitting wood. The odds are skewed to the dramatic in a game, but they happen.

5 - 20' and decent cover is far enough.

 

I'm just saying that justifications for swords need to be meta-game, not real. Most of my characters carry some sort of knife/dagger "just in case".

 

Like, for instance, a post-apocalyptic setting where the main point of defeating an enemy is to steal their psychic life energy during the moment of death, and that can only happen while your bodies are connected by a length of conductive material (ie - a sword).

 

Or because nanobots in the bloodstream can easily heal any wound that doesn't actually remove a significant bit of mass. The only way to truly defeat an opponent is to either disintegrate them, blow them into teensy bits, or hack them apart.

 

Or, authoritarian police-bots are programmed to hone in on the energy signature of gun discharges, so muscle-powered weapons are favored by the shady.

 

Or, the kirlian fields that surround living things are manipulated so that flesh, and anything it touches, can become stronger than steel. The only thing that can cut it is something held by another kirlian field, like reinforced sword (possibly made out of bone, who knows).

 

Or some mad scientist invented a bacteria that eats gunpowder, or a beam that disrupts the workings of blasters.

[Curufea]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

Yeah, I just think swords are generally more useful to adventurer types. Because they can be used as a tool, as well as a weapon. Guns can't.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

I thought of another reason for swords, but it's kind of out there, which is what the original post asked for. (in rereading this, it seems very derivative of Battle Angel Alita):

 

Certain forms of cyber tech call for establishing a specifc state of mind, like a trance state, for total 'meshing' between computer and human. Some jobs, like navigation and piloting offer the opportunity to do this in an immobile meditative state.

 

But others, like combat soldier, require you to move your body while maintaining a certain inner calm - and one of the methods used to do this is the internal martial arts styles, like tai-chi (which includes a sword form). Calligraphy and flower arranging would have the same internal effect, but for some reason, warriors tend to choose swords, even if carrying them is largely ceremonial/rank designation. As such, few carry them into serious combat, except as a badge of attaining one-ness with their tech. Outside of active fighting, warriors would carry them as a statement of skill.

 

Just beware the quiet warrior that carries a brush.

 

A very good point!

 

Many of the greatest samurai were very skilled in such esoteric arts as calligraphy and flower arranging, as well as writing poetry, cooking, and painting. Even the act of sharpening their sword was a very artistic ritual... all very Zen, you know.

 

Personally, I prefer a very large club... preferable with nails sticking out. Just displaying it stops most attackers in their tracks.

[The Mad GM]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

A very good point!

 

Many of the greatest samurai were very skilled in such esoteric arts as calligraphy and flower arranging, as well as writing poetry, cooking, and painting. Even the act of sharpening their sword was a very artistic ritual... all very Zen, you know.

 

Personally, I prefer a very large club... preferable with nails sticking out. Just displaying it stops most attackers in their tracks.

 

That's a good point - there is a more visceral intimidation factor with knives and wicked clubs, especially if they haven't been cleaned since the last use. You learn to fear sharp pointy things before you learn to fear a hollow tube pointing at you. A subtle but cogent point.

 

I'm not talking about intellectual fear, I'm talking about gut reaction.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

Time for a few more random thoughts based on other responces.

 

In many ways, swords in space aren't all that realistic, but I still don't think that they are completely beyond the pale.

 

HtH weapns do have their place... most nations soliders carry combat knives/ bayonets of some sort, as a tool as well as a backup weapon that can take a primary role when stealth is in order. In the more tropical climates, these knives begin to take on the characteristics of swords, as part of the utility needed is the ability to clear a path in undergrowth. Some of the troops who carry knives that are really shortswords are quite justly famed and feared for their ability with their weapons... escpecially if there is a cultural background to carrying them. Right now I'm thinking about the Gurkhas with their kukris. If spacebound troops ever have to deal with planetfall, they will be facing almost any possible environment, and being very handy with a medium-big (in knife terms, anyway) blade is probably a good idea.

 

Another consideration is the prevelance of martial arts in your campaign... Advanced martial artists often study with weapons, and can be quite fearsome with them. As it was noted... using a sword in those circumstances begs for a lot of training... but in some settings there are a lot of folk with that training.

 

Additionally, its worth considering if there are any "powered" hand to hand combat weapons or tools... lightsabers, vibroblades ad naseum. Any of these would increase the function and thus appeal of a combo tool/weapon.

 

Then we get back to the whole "space" thing.

Airplanes are somewhat spooky to many people, for the simple reason that if something goes wrong, you can't get out and walk. Spaceships take this to the next level... not only can you not get out and walk, there is also no air and no pressure. Frangible bullets have been designed to be used inside airplanes so that airmarshals can fire their weapons without breaching the pressured hull of a plane, so it's reasonable to assume that there would be similar developments in weapon/munition technology in the future. Spaceship hulls are probably quite tough, after all. They have to deal with impacts at enormous velocities from microdebris, extremes of temperature, vaccum, and all that jazz.

But what about the guts of the ship? Is everything on every ship that tough inside the outer hull? How tightly packed are the various components, any one of which MIGHT be vital to the survival of the crew? Are your spacehulls really that tough, or does your setting use sheild technology to solve for some of the questions?

 

Speaking of which... What is personal armor/spacesuit technology like? If a battlearmored suit worn by a marine during a boarding action is as tough as an interior bulkhead, what do you think those safe bullets will do to him?

How does a boarding party breach secured bulkheads? Is the technology something that would lend itself to playing canopener to a battlesuit? Because SOMEONE would think of it. And if civilian pressure suits are unarmored, then how do they deal with the possibility of a breach Because it HAS to be considered)? A hole the size of your fingertip is gonna be a LOT easier to slap a pressure patch on that a 3 foot long tear in the back of your suit.

 

The lack of random missed shots becomes more appealing when you consider the possibility that with paralell advances in weapons and armor tech, a stray shot may quite easily wipe out something rather important. I imagine in MOST sci-fi settings, any space combat that ends in a boarding action will also consider the capture of the defeated ship to be of a high importance... starships are traditionally one of the most expensive commodities out there. Even if its a non millitary civilian trader, its eventual resale value, whether sold by a victorious pirate or at a police auction, will be severly curtailied in the ship needs a complete drydock refitting to restore the damage done in its capture.

So there are good economic and practical reasons why melee weapons MIGHT be in more common usage than they are today.

 

I'd say it puts the answer in the hands of the technology level of your setting.

[pinecone]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

That depends on where you live. Weren't the majority of the killings in the genocide in Rwanda carried out by machette?

Not a convincing example in my opinion...the killing were by machette, backed up by guns...machettes are cheaper to operate and create more fear likely.........and a machette is a tool, if melee weapons were practicle where are the spears and swords?

[The Mad GM]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

I think someone already mentioned this, but in zero-g, there's no recoil from a sword, but there's a lot of spin.

 

I'm not entirely sure how things would work out, but if you stabbed at someone, you'd also be pushing yourself backwards. If you punctured them, their muscles might constrict around the blade enough to prevent them being pushed away.

 

Any swing would also cause your body to pivot, unless you use two swords and moved them in opposite directions, or perhaps had a weight in your off hand (a shield perhaps), that would serve the same purpose.

 

All these things would be covered under a zero-g martial arts style (with environmental movement - zero-g). Chain weapons might be interesting in zero-g.

 

" A hole the size of your fingertip is gonna be a LOT easier to slap a pressure patch on that a 3 foot long tear in the back of your suit." - AmadanNaBriona

 

Good point. The same could be said about a shotgun blast, tho, and shotguns might have less penetration against hull plating as well.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

I think someone already mentioned this, but in zero-g, there's no recoil from a sword, but there's a lot of spin.

 

I'm not entirely sure how things would work out, but if you stabbed at someone, you'd also be pushing yourself backwards. If you punctured them, their muscles might constrict around the blade enough to prevent them being pushed away.

 

Any swing would also cause your body to pivot, unless you use two swords and moved them in opposite directions, or perhaps had a weight in your off hand (a shield perhaps), that would serve the same purpose.

 

All these things would be covered under a zero-g martial arts style (with environmental movement - zero-g). Chain weapons might be interesting in zero-g.

 

" A hole the size of your fingertip is gonna be a LOT easier to slap a pressure patch on that a 3 foot long tear in the back of your suit." - AmadanNaBriona

 

Good point. The same could be said about a shotgun blast, tho, and shotguns might have less penetration against hull plating as well.

 

Some good points here, and ones I used in my old Star Hero campaign. I was the Ironmonger GM, so I designed most of the weapons and tech in my games. Flechette and scattershot weapons were quite common for shipboard sidearms. The standard Marine Boarding carbine was a recoilless Gauss weapon that fired a high energy low mass sabot as its standard projectile, at a hideous rate of fire. It also mounted an underslung 25mm "grenade launcher" that was predominantly used with flechette loads for clearing hallways and the like, tho the marines also carried APX shells for blowing doors, bulkheads and the like. They also carried vibroblades build on approximately the mold of the Cold Steel Kukri... an economized hacking weapon, basically. Used with Zero-G combat martial arts, where most of the blade attacks were built with a "must follow grab" component. Consider that in a zero-g vaccum environment, ricochets are going to be very touchy. A lot of the close in fighting in suits in my game had a strong resemblance to fighting in scuba gear... Shoot the guy if you can, if he gets to close, grab a hold and try and cut open his life support, and let the environment do the rest.

Something else to remember... troops equipped for Zero-g actions will have less action/reaction difficulties than normal folk... besides the appropraite skills, they are likely to have manuevering thrusters, "Grav compensators" magnetic boots and the like.

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

A zero-g martial art makes sense to me - a la dirty infighting, and so forth. A zero-g fighting style, with weapons, doesn't make as much sense to me. It seems to push for guns. Can anyone with a little more knowledge of either zero-g-ness or swords explain this to me?

[Zeropoint]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

Regarding the above arguments: If my "melee weapons" you mean big knives and machetes, then yes, by all means they will continue to be used in the future, for the same reasons that they're carried today. A large knife isn't much of a load, but it's a very useful tool as well as a dependable backup weapon. A machete is nearly indespensible for roughing it, and makes a good weapon if it comes down to that. Axes, either wood axes or fire axes, will always have a place. You might even find short shovels with very sturdy square blades, the edges of which are much sharper than a shovel needs to be. Don't forget crowbars, either; they sure seem to work for Dr. Freeman.

 

Anything that has value as a tool will stick around, and still be in use in the future. Many, if not most, of the useful tools will have the potential to be dangerous if "misused".

 

Furthermore, I agree with the assessment of dealing with opponents wearing armor tougher than the ship you're fighting in. That's a very good reason to develop a powerful melee weapon. However, no matter how powerful they were, they still wouldn't have any range, and would be at a disadvantage in a gunfight.

 

Zeropoint

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

A zero-g martial art makes sense to me - a la dirty infighting' date=' and so forth. A zero-g fighting style, with weapons, doesn't make as much sense to me. It seems to push for guns. Can anyone with a little more knowledge of either zero-g-ness or swords explain this to me?[/quote']

Zero-G fighting makes a LOT of sense in a Star Hero campaign. Most of the maneuvers will be grappling style maneuvers. In my campaign, the maneuvers that could be used with weapons elemtns were very similar to Commando Traning maneuvers. Bear in mind that the weapons in question were expressely designed to be strong/powerful enough to penetrate light armor. In my game, defensive tech was such that your average civilian spacesuit was around 6PD/ED armor... enough to protect against most common small hazards encountered. Actual combat suits went up from there... 14-16 DEF wasn't uncommon. Powered Armor went even further. Which makes MOST unarmed attacks fairly worthless. The ones that still worked tend to be popular ones for most hypothetical zero-g styles anyway... jointbreaks and the like. In full Zero-G, action reaction issues make most long HtH weapons fairly worthless, so in this instance swords are pretty much not used. A lightsaber type weapon, with an energy blade, would be the exception... with a "blade" that has virtually no mass, you don't have to worry about most of the issues. Most of the armed Zero-g moves in my campaign were of the "Grab the opponent then open up his armor" style maneuvers... an example in modern terms is the classic commando "grab the opponent from behind and slash his throat" maneuver.

Bear in mind, in my campaign, most space suits were self sealing, to a limited extent, with a gel filled cell structured under layer that acted as thermal insulation, impact padding, and "oozed out" to seal small holes (similar to self sealing tires). So even civvie suits generally required a large tear to cause catastrophic depressurization. A shotgun MIGHT do it (depends on the spread... too wide a shot pattern and the holes would reseal).

 

One of the big problems with swords is they are large and cumbersome, not to mention almost impossible to conceal. Given a preference, history has shown that a fighting man will carry as little gear as possible to complete his mission, with a real effort made to decrease the encumberance of his total kit. In this regard, if the main weapon carried is a long arm, then any melee weapon backup is going to probably be shortsword/machette sized or smaller... small enough to secure on a back or against a thigh without inhibiting movement. Knives will be common. If your setting has "swords" that are nothing more than a hilt that can hang from your belt until activated, they will gain a popluar following among some folk. The only time you are likely to see actual slung over the back or hanging from your belt swords will be in dress uniforms, classes of people who have a cultural or training reason for carrying them, or if the society approves of them (An example from one of my earlier posts might be "code" among frontier worlds that allows for deuling to resolve dispiutes, but frowns on the use of firearms due to the potential for collateral damage). Additionally, sword type weapons might very well be used during boarding action, not so much by the agressors as by the defenders. In much the same way that you see a LOT more melee weapons used in the modern age by people defending their own homes... you don't have to carry the damn thing around... but its there if you need it. A short (say 18"-24") bladed cutlass style weapon is easily used with very little training, quite a bit easier for a semitrained user to weild effectively than some firearms(doing a little research on the Age of Sail confirms this... your basic short hacking sword is really easy to do a lot of damage with even if you are all but untrained), and has the advantage of not tearing apart your "home" (your own ship, in this case). Not as a primary wweapon, admittedly, but most crewmembers at a duty station will probably be carrying little more than a holstered sidearm and a few extra magazines, and in THAT circumstance, having a "no relaoding" weapon in your off hand might seem REAL attractive.

 

And if you use pirate types, they might carry them just for the intimidation factor alone.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

A pirate without a cutlas just isn't a pirate, after all.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

A pirate without a cutlas just isn't a pirate' date=' after all.[/quote']

Exactly.

Tho I've always felt that robo-parrots and laser flintlocks are a bit over the top myself

[pinecone]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

A pirate without a cutlas just isn't a pirate' date=' after all.[/quote']

Unless he's a Ninja-pirate, then he carries a Ninjato....Arrr

Annother often overlooked close in weapon in zero gee is small seeker missiles, without grav, all you need is manuever. And a smart grenade does not cause the weilder any action/reaction problems I could see most ship security folks carrying 2-3 in a small hoslter "just in case" they'd also be good for capture "call it off! I surrender!"......(I'm evisioning small HEAP type warheads)

[Citizen Keen]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

Muwahahaha. My spin-off thread has grown larger than its original parent! I will RULE THE WORLD!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

Unless he's a Ninja-pirate, then he carries a Ninjato....Arrr

Annother often overlooked close in weapon in zero gee is small seeker missiles, without grav, all you need is manuever. And a smart grenade does not cause the weilder any action/reaction problems I could see most ship security folks carrying 2-3 in a small hoslter "just in case" they'd also be good for capture "call it off! I surrender!"......(I'm evisioning small HEAP type warheads)

 

Pretty clever idea there.

I had similar thoughts back when I was doing my weapons designs, but never thought of smart grenades. Good one. All my zero-g seeking weapons were munitions fired from recoiless weapons (gyrojet rounds, for the most part)

Ya know... you could add a magnetic (or grav, or both) element to the smart grneade as well, so it latches onto a target like a limpet mine. give the grenade a stick handle like an old potato masher, with a real simple set of controls that lets you choose wheter the grenade is on its own or remote detonated...

 

I like it.

[APE]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

One reason could also be why bayonets were invented, rifle type weapons are basicly usless execept as clubs in close quarters. Clubs can be easly grabed or deverted, while blades not so. Grabing a blade = losing some fingers or slicing open the palm of the hand.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

if melee weapons were practicle where are the spears and swords?

 

One reason could also be why bayonets were invented' date=' rifle type weapons are basicly usless execept as clubs in close quarters. Clubs can be easly grabed or deverted, while blades not so. Grabing a blade = losing some fingers or slicing open the palm of the hand.[/quote']

 

Exactly, Mr. Ape... and you reminded me that I intended to answer Pinecone's question RE: spears...

Here's where they are... on the ends of rifles.

Some great wit figured out that you didn't need to mount a spearhead on the end on a plain stick when you were already going to be carrying a long, vaugely stick-like object around to blow holes in people.

[Matt Frisbee]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

Hi guys and gals,

 

I've been browsing this thread with some interest, seeing as I'm an old school Traveller player and referee. Here's my thoughts on the subject, which hopefully haven't been brought up too many times before.

 

1) Old school science fiction stories (Flash Gordon, John Carter, Asimov's space merchant, the Stainless Steel Rat, etc.) all incorporated bladed weapons, including swords of some type into the universe. Why? Because a sword duel is infinitely more exciting and personal than a gunfight from a writing perspective. Remember, realism can always be shelved for a reasonably dramatic scene which has the right feel for the genre.

 

2) The higher the technology level of a society, the faster technology defenses can catch up with technological attacks. Case in point: a) unguided bomb dropped from airplane is deterred by anti-aircraft guns which are then bypassed by c) high-altitude bombing, which is then countered with d) high-altitude interceptors, which are then avoided by e) night bombing and then countered again with f) radar equipped night fighters...and so on. A sword in the hands of a modestly trained individual is more than adequate to defend said individual from most sorts of harm, considering most firefights take place at ranges of less than 20 feet and most animals have an attack range of less than one body length. Add to this fact that most bladed weapons of any length incorporate fighting styles where the weapons is used to defend as much as attack, and the fact that keeping one's sword skills sharp is both an excellent way to stay in shape and ensure that one may live to see another day...well, who wouldn't want to keep one handy?

 

3) Technology varies from place to place (as do laws), but most places are willing to allow someone to carry a sword (even if they aren't actually allowed to use it). That being said, provided the planet you're on has roughly the same metallurgical theories as where you bought your sword, no matter where you go, you can almost always procure a sword or improvise a blunt object which can be used in roughly the same fashion.

 

4) Swords (in our society at least) tend to lend a certain credibility to an individual, suggesting a background or lifestyle. There's a certain amount of art (or at least perceived art) in fighting with say a rapier, sabre, katana or foil. Weapons with lower class implications (don't get mad at me here) such as knives, machetes, hatchets and broadswords lend a different aspect to a character's social standing.

 

5) Finally, this has been said before: Swords are just so cool.

 

Personally, it is much more fun from a player's and GM's standpoint to run a sword fight than "BANG! You're dead!" types of firefights. And if swords are a bit anachronistic to the slick future, then at least there is some acknowledgement of a history where higher ideals were held a little loftier than they are in current days.

 

Matt "Trying-not-to-wax-poetic-about-the-subject" Frisbee

[BNakagawa]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

One reason could also be why bayonets were invented' date=' rifle type weapons are basicly usless execept as clubs in close quarters. Clubs can be easly grabed or deverted, while blades not so. Grabing a blade = losing some fingers or slicing open the palm of the hand.[/quote']

 

Bayonets were invented so that pike squares were not needed to keep musketeers from being overrun by cavalry or infantry. Not all bayonets have edges. Some are simply spikes with a round or triangular cross section.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

4) Swords (in our society at least) tend to lend a certain credibility to an individual, suggesting a background or lifestyle. There's a certain amount of art (or at least perceived art) in fighting with say a rapier, sabre, katana or foil. Weapons with lower class implications (don't get mad at me here) such as knives, machetes, hatchets and broadswords lend a different aspect to a character's social standing.

This is precisely what makes a worn sword useful as a sort of "badge of authority" even if you don't really have a clue how to use it in a fight. If you were in an American Civil War infantry regiment, your officers carried swords even though they were more likely to sue them as pointers than to cut down the enemy with them. In Fedual Japan, people carried the "dai-sho" as a symbol of class and authority in a society where class could be a matter of life and death -- local "civilian" authorities, corrupt or otherwise, all thought twice before messing with someone who looked like a samurai. The standard formal garb for courtiers in England and other European countries with monarchies include a sword that is never used -- and might not even be kept sharp.

 

And in sci-fi unvierses, such as the Star Wars universe, force swords are also status symbols as much as practical weapons. I still have a hard time grasping the lightsaber being The Umtilate Weapon, but lightsaber=Jedi and Jedi="You really don't want to mess with me, pal."

 

In future societies with a history with the sword, it will still be a very important status symbol even if there are more practical weapons in a fight.

[Dale A. Ward]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

And in sci-fi unvierses' date=' such as the [i']Star Wars[/i] universe, force swords are also status symbols as much as practical weapons. I still have a hard time grasping the lightsaber being The Umtilate Weapon, but lightsaber=Jedi and Jedi="You really don't want to mess with me, pal."

 

No no... you misunderstand. The lightsaber is just a tool.

 

It's the Jedi who is the ultimate weapon.

[Old Man]

Re: Sci-fi wear swords?

 

It seems to me that an excellent 0g weapon would be the grenade launcher. Not much recoil, and the frangible case of the grenade could be made with something like plastic or soft metal that would go through organs but not spacecraft hulls. Or else just load flashbang-type concussion grenades.