Mutant for Hire Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches My least favourite of her books. The main character is handed help by the Gods every single time she asks for it. There's no struggle - we never need fear for her safety, a God will always be nearby to help her out. We must have been reading different books. I got a vastly different impression than that, quite the opposite. In fact the book drives home again and again that the gods are extremely limited in what they can do. All of Ista's rescues were arranged more or less by her own doing or those of her companions. Ista's first rescue was because she sent the courier girl to race ahead of the approaching army to send for a rescue party. Likewise when she was rescued the second time from the enemy's soldiers, it is because she arranged for troops to be sent from the fortress if she did not return within a period of time. The third time, her patron god made it quite clear that she could be butchered within seconds and he would be powerless to stop it. On the physical level, the gods are nearly powerless. Only one of Ista's prayers to the gods was actually answered, and that was the issue of second sight. Her other prayers, mostly to be left alone, went unanswered. I'm really struggling to think of any other instances where she prayed and got what she asked for, or when her god saved her from death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Agree about that list not really being cliches at all. Not totally convinced by the start of this one either. Is romance' date=' for example, really a subject for fantasy cliche? Most of the fantasy I've read (and I'll admit it isn't a lot - Tolkien, Conan, Fafyrd & GM, some Ursula le Guin, some others I cant recall) tends to avoid the issue to a great extent.[/quote'] Seems to me like one mark of good literature is that it avoids cliches, so to say there are exceptions to the cliches doesn't negate them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tancred Posted November 11, 2005 Report Share Posted November 11, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches BTW, has anyone ever read The River of Dancing Gods by Jack Chalker? I vaguely remember that every chapter had a quote from the rulebook that made up the world, a fantasy world of cliches. There were several Dancing Gods novels. And ALL of them have quotes from the rules. Nearly all of the quotes are funny, and belong in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Seems to me like one mark of good literature is that it avoids cliches... It depends. Cliches do not start out that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Seems to me like one mark of good literature is that it avoids cliches If I had a nickel for everytime someone wrote that... Keith "Hey kids! Spot the double irony!" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Anomaly Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches BTW' date=' has anyone ever read The River of Dancing Gods by Jack Chalker? I vaguely remember that every chapter had a quote from the rulebook that made up the world, a fantasy world of cliches. [/quote'] Yup. Things like "Weather permitting, all beautiful women shall be scantily clad." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamerz123 Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Yup. Things like "Weather permitting' date=' all beautiful women shall be scantily clad."[/i'] Exactly which weather is too inclement for them not to be scantly clad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Exactly which weather is too inclement for them not to be scantly clad? Given the barbarian chicks I've seen in fantasy art who are wearing fur bikinis in knee-deep snow, not much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bblackmoor Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Exactly which weather is too inclement for them not to be scantly clad? "Freezing rain". Everything else is okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Actually - I think "anything likely to lower the temperature of the female such that she is likely to have the indentation of her nipples showing, and thus raising the rating of the comic book". Although why that changes the rating is beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches 7. Any roleplaying system based on the fiction will not be able to simulate the fiction, or any of the characters in it. 8. characters with no formal combat training will be able to kick unimaginable amounts of *** because they wrestled with their two + older brothers as children. This is even more prevalent with female characters. Relating to both of these... 7/8 (a) : No matter how many or how easily 'bad guy' grunts are defeated by semitrained or untrained characters in a work of fiction, when said grunts are written up in the roleplaying system, they will be significantly more powerful than normal humans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches BTW' date=' has anyone ever read The River of Dancing Gods by Jack Chalker? I vaguely remember that every chapter had a quote from the rulebook that made up the world, a fantasy world of cliches. [/quote'] Yes. It had such a profound impact on me that I resolved to never read another of his books again. Particularly scary was the rules quote "All fantasies shall be trilogies" which showed me where THAT was going. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Good literature doesn't avoid cliches... it... well, in part it sets them up. Who'd heard of a Light Saber prior to Star Wars? No one. But you'd heard of Excalibur, a magical blade pulled from a rock by a child who was destined to be King. Oh wait. It was really a glowing stick inhereted by a kid who's father had betrayed the throne... er, Empire... and... wait, now I'm confused... My point is that deep down - deep down in places we don't talk about at parties - you want that cliche. You need that cliche. Not because it's a cliche, because it's part of the fundamental story arc. You can't write without it, even if it's unintentional. C'mon; you really think trips to the Underworld were started by the Greeks? The first example is the Descent of Innana, from ... 3,000 BC? Where she (the busty, uber-powered Heroine who happens to be a Goddess) travels down to face off with her Evil Sister who's Somewhat Better Looking to retrieve her husband. Cliches, by their nature, are a fall-back option for people when they get stuck, then they spin them into something knew. Example: In my homebrew campaign, the Empire is actually where the heroes are from. There ARE forces within the Empire which wear Imperial Blazon but are not on the side of the PCs. Just because I call it an Empire, instead of a Kingdom, did I avoid the cliche? Course not. Anymore than calling it Capitol Hill makes it any different from any fantasy cliche we could come up with. They're all on the same Hill, but represent diffrent agendas and positions. That's part of my model. The Imperial Family is oblivious, high ranked people in the Senate are in on it, others are fighting back, meanwhile the PCs are in the employ of a SpecOps unit and have no idea half of that is happening in the background. Sure, 90% of that might be cliche. Maybe all of it. Doesn't mean the story isn't well told or interesting, and nothing was intentionally or directly borrowed from existing lit. Except for a googleplex of Fae myth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Ah but there is fine (and unrecognised by the Dragonlance writers) line between archetypes and cliches. Tolkein took the (thoroughly archetypal) old, wise magician and made him a distinct character by integrating him into the background story and a certain amount of gentle characterisation. Terry Brooks took the same ageless archetype and turned it into a 2-dimensional rotting hulk of cardboard by being shamelessly derivative. Both Julian May (in her Pleistocene books) and Robert Holdstock (in The Hollowing) both take the archetype of the Devouring Fool but do *completely* different things with it. THAT's the difference between archetype and cliché. We're all playing with the same basic stories - the key is what we do with them. cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches I'd like to plug Terry Pratchett as being the master of turning cliche into something new and interesting. His elves are cool, stylish, popular and at the same time, deadly, self-absorbed total creeps. The first half notes the cliche, the second finds a new interpretation. Cohen the Barbarian is nearly 100 years old. He is also an unparalleled fighter, sacks temples, rescues maidens, etc. Hey, if he could survive this long in a job so dangerous, he has to be good. The toughest barbarians are the old ones. They've gotten really, really good at surviving. Cliche: Barbarians are great fighters and survivors. Cliche: Old men increase in skill. Both are true, the synthesis is new. Keith "Go Discworld" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Agreed. And agreed. And oh yeah - that too. The only Pratchett I ever read was Good Omens, possibly one of my favorite books ever. I couldn't get into Discworld. I know, I know. Blasphemery. I'm aware. Wasn't my thing. I just generally prefer my imagination to someone else's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches True, true . . . I'd forgotten my 100-level writing classes. You CAN use cliches, you can even center your story around them, but you'd darn well better do something new with them if you want people to read the story. Otherwise, it's just another generic story. Cliches continue to pop up again and again and again for a reason, though - there's a comforting familiarity in them. The reader reads about another plucky hero fighting some evil thing bigger than himself, and they say, "Oh, I know this. It isn't threatening or scary." Then you lure them in with that little twist that they haven't seen before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garou Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches The armies of evil will number in the hundreds of thousands, possibly the millions. They will be overrunning the world like ants on sugar. The heroes will be a small band of plucky adventurers, or possibly a small army. Nonetheless, despite being rank amateurs and outnumbered by a factor of 10:1 or more, the heroes will win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Which is pretty much my point; Mark is saying in simpler terms what I meant. You can toy around with Archetypes all day long; it's when your archetypes become unoriginal charicatures that you end up with cliches. Bleh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithcurtis Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Agreed. And agreed. And oh yeah - that too. The only Pratchett I ever read was Good Omens' date=' possibly one of my favorite books ever. I couldn't get into Discworld. I know, I know. Blasphemery. I'm aware. Wasn't my thing. I just generally prefer my imagination to someone else's.[/quote'] The unfortunate truth about Discworld is that the first 4-5 books simply aren't that good. The author does not find his voice and metaphor until then. Later Discworld books are each about something: War, Free Speech, Gender Identity,, the Power of Stories (very common theme), etc. They make witty and insightful comment, while wrapping it up in a fun fantasy tale. It's not even allegory, since all the cards ar on the table and nothing is hidden. Satire, pure and simple. Since you like Interesting Times so much, if you ever get the itch to try Discworld again, may I suggest you try one of the books slightly farther down the publication line: Guards, Guards, Mort, or Wyrd Sisters. His books for younger readers are great too, and Wee Free Men is a delight to read. For an interesting approach to reading order, this is a cool graphic: Reading Order Keith "Discworld Promoter" Curtis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliceTheOwl Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Well, dang. I've read Small Gods and Monstrous Regiment. So apparently I started in the middle. Drat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches keithcurtis, that certainly explains why I wasn't enjoying it - because it wasn't all that good! Fair enough. I thought the premise was great, but I just couldn't get into any of it. Death will always be generally amusing though, but while I appreciate the endorsement, I don't see myself going back to it. But if I do, I will most assuredly take your advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
austenandrews Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches Both Julian May (in her Pleistocene books) and Robert Holdstock (in The Hollowing) both take the archetype of the Devouring Fool but do *completely* different things with it. What's the archetype of the "devouring fool?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Re: Fantasy Cliches I can think of a bunch of things it might mean, but I'm unfamiliar with the term. The "Fool" archetype is one most often seen in Shakespeare (King Lear's Jester being the most famous example). The Fool knows all truths, but conveys them in a way which belies his intelligence. I don't know what a Devouring Fool would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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