Who's the most evil villain in CU?

[The Main Man]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

I call a two-way tie.

The Dragon and The Kings of Edom are both embodiments of evil itself, human or not.

 

My other opinion would be that perhaps you could use the Nine Circles of Hell from The Inferno Of Dante as a quantification of evil.

 

Think about it. Luther Black is in the lead, and what circle does he essentially belong to? The Ninth, for betraying humanity.

 

That raises a question for me: how would the Netherworld deal with Luther Black when he died and was swallowed by the Dragon?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

We seem to be talking somewhat at cross purposes, because several different categories of "evil" are being compared without concensus on a working definition. We have:

 

Psychopathic/sociopathic evil (Blowtorch, Black Harlequin, Masquerade) - don't truly understand the consequences of their actions, or don't care, or both;

 

Chosen evil (Luther Black, Giacomo Sylvestri, Dark Seraph) - understanding the nature of evil, and deliberately embracing corruption;

 

Embodying evil (The Dragon, the Kings of Edom, the Monster) - evil is the essence of what they are, and they simply follow their nature.

 

It's also unclear as to whether scale should be a determining factor. Is it in fact more heinous to debase and destroy a whole world than a single innocent life?

 

That raises a question for me: how would the Netherworld deal with Luther Black when he died and was swallowed by the Dragon?

 

If the Princes of Hell have any say in his disposition, I would expect his immortal soul to experience an eternity of very creative torments. However, there's no guarantee that Black would even end up in the Netherworld. The Kings of Edom have a claim on him now, and if he failed in his plan to free them there's no telling whether or how they might choose to punish him. And as the DEMON book postulates, Sharna-Gorak has a claim there as well.

[Chuckg]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

It's also unclear as to whether scale should be a determining factor. Is it in fact more heinous to debase and destroy a whole world than a single innocent life?

 

Question -- if you handed Blowtorch the power of Luther Black, would he start trying to achieve Luther Black's goal of ultimate Edomite apotheosis, even though it destroy the world? Or would he simply start burning entire city blocks at a time instead of one house at a time?

 

If the answer to this question is "he'd simply stick to doing what he already does, only with bigger fires", then I guess that would mean that no, Blowtorch was *not* quite as evil as Luther Black.

[The Main Man]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Good call on Luther Black's death.

 

So perhaps if we can't say an absolute most evil villain, how about the most evil based on each of such categories, because those are pretty good generalizations.

 

Psychological

Chosen

Embodiment

[Trencher]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

We seem to be talking somewhat at cross purposes' date=' because several different categories of "evil" are being compared without concensus on a working definition. [/quote'] This is correct but it is unavoidable concerning the subject matter in my opinion. Therefore we should take care to explain what we mean.

We have:

Psychopathic/sociopathic evil (Blowtorch, Black Harlequin, Masquerade) - don't truly understand the consequences of their actions, or don't care, or both;

Chosen evil (Luther Black, Giacomo Sylvestri, Dark Seraph) - understanding the nature of evil, and deliberately embracing corruption;

I say the whole bunch is Psychopathic/sociopathic and I think that the clinical definition would agree with me. Except for Masquerade who I suspect is not human at all but more a traditional doppelganger.

Embodying evil (The Dragon' date=' the Kings of Edom, the Monster) - evil is the essence of what they are, and they simply follow their nature. [/quote'] I agree with your assessment of the Dragon, not so sure of the Kings of Edom because all Lovercraftian “uber-horrors†have the same attitude to us like we have to insects, if you swat the insect that is fly past your computer screen you are just as evil. So I would say that the kings are in fact evil even after their own standard.

The monster are a complete mystery.

It's also unclear as to whether scale should be a determining factor. Is it in fact more heinous to debase and destroy a whole world than a single innocent life?

I say no.

[Trencher]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Question -- if you handed Blowtorch the power of Luther Black, would he start trying to achieve Luther Black's goal of ultimate Edomite apotheosis, even though it destroy the world? Or would he simply start burning entire city blocks at a time instead of one house at a time?

Counter question- Does Blowtorch get the knowledge that Luther has?

 

If he does, there is in my oppinion nothing that say he would not try to become the firegod of Edom and -then- burn the world one person at a time.

[lemming]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Steve Long. He's all over the place.

[Chuckg]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

> Counter question- Does Blowtorch get the knowledge that Luther has?

 

> If he does, there is in my oppinion nothing that say he would not try to

> become the firegod of Edom and -then- burn the world one person at a

> time.

 

Firegod? Edom is somewhat less comprehensible than what you suggest, re: pantheon slots. We're talking Cthulhoid stuff here, not simple D&D deities.

 

To return to the topic, my point was that *yes*, # of victims and scope of activity *does* count re: how evil you are. Otherwise, Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin would only be equally as evil as the guy who shot the clerk robbing a liquor store... a self-evident absurdity.

[Trencher]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Otherwise' date=' Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin would only be equally as evil as the guy who shot the clerk robbing a liquor store... a self-evident absurdity.[/quote']

Do you know what Joseph Stalin had as a job before he clawede his way up to the top of the Communist party?

If you don't know guess then highlight for answer.

 

A bank-robber

[The Main Man]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

That's a coincidence in this thread.

But anyways, I think that quantity does justify quality, not that quality justifies itself as well.

[Trencher]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

That's a coincidence in this thread.

But anyways, I think that quantity does justify quality, not that quality justifies itself as well.

I don't think I understand your choice of words. But if I should agree with you and say that a more powerful, destructive and driven villain is more evil than your average street rat then I say that Dr. Destroyer is the evilest.

If he wanted he could use his knowledge and money to turn this world into a technological utopia and he could be know as the greatest scientist and humanitarian the world have ever seen. But he does not want that- he want to rule.

Take away all villain stuff and his occult pacts Luther Black is just an old guy with a stick. Sure he could have a cult and could ruin thousands of life’s but in the end.. Meh.

Science is supposed to be the light of the world. With method, rational analysis and application we have the opportunity to crawl out of the primordial muck that is superstition, occultism, greed etc..

To use science just to get to run the world is evil in my opinion.

[The Main Man]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

What I meant was that, for example, 1,000 murders is more evil than 1.

Saying that there's no difference means that you are also saying that 1+1<1.

That, and perhaps it is exponential.

 

I would also say that scale and efficiency can determine evil as well as quality and quantity.

[Guest daeudi_454]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Blowtorch would gladly burn whole cities.... as long as he could watch each death up close and personal- whhich if not more evil than Luthor Black, certainly makes him scarier in my view. Evil isn't only the level of pain and destruction that you cause or want to cause, but the sheer joy you get in the suffering caused by it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

You know, back when DC was running their whole Eclipso: The Darkness Within mini-series, I recall a discussion between Eclipso and Darkseid comparing the relative ranking of their evil acts. For an example of the magnitude of his own evil, Eclipso recounted his bringing on a great disaster (IIRC it was the Great Flood of Biblical and other tradition), devastating the surface of the Earth and drowning millions. Darkseid countered with a story of a boy among the New Gods that he had met in his youth, a boy of artistic talent and a love of beauty. Darkseid tricked that boy into committing heinous acts, confusing and manipulating him until he became twisted, his only joy the suffering of others. That boy's name was Desaad.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Of the major villains, I would have to say that Takofanes is the "EVIL-Innate" in as much as he/it is just incorrigibly evil for the sake of being Evil -- pretty stupid at its root .

 

Black is the most "EVIL-Intent" in as much as he knows what he's doing is foul beyond comprehension, but does it out of a sort of twisted / enlightened self interest. When he commits evil he is weighing the evilness, and there is a vast pattern to it.

 

Destroyer, Teleios, Mechanon, etc are basically "EVIL-Selfish". Which is to say, their interests are generally in conflict with the well being of others, they do what they want anyway, and thus are evil to the perspective of the millions of other people that find their actions unacceptible. Entirely different scale and context.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

National socialist Germany had almost no ordinary street crime because all the criminals had gotten themselves a fancy uniform and ran the country.

 

 

Well... not quite true. There was a mass rapist turned serial killer, Bruno Ludke. He started out committing rapes, the Nazis caught him and emasculated him as a "cure". It did cure him of rape -- he started killing out of frustration, and is believed to have accounted for over 80 women before getting caught again. His being dragged in on a general bust and physically attacking the Gestapo interrogator didn't help matters. He was sentenced to a death camp and marked for "experimentation until death, and Not A Word To Anyone" (the Nazis had already executed several other men for some of his killings, and were ashamed to admit as much). His career wasn't even publically known until several decades after the war, when someone discovered the records.

 

I really do wish someone would make a documentary/drama concerning his career and how he was caught. It would be a different sort of story, that's for sure. I mean, who would you cheer for: the demented sex slayer or the Nazi state trying to hunt him down?

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Oh yes -- for my money, the most evil is Luther Black, for the reasons others have stated.

 

And on a side note, does anyone here wodner just who if any of the CU villains would be believers in/students of Nietzchean morality? I really do see Destroyer as having a first-edition copy of Thus Spake Zarathustra by his bedside, even if Menton is much closer to the ideal of the master morality versus the herd morality. He doesn't try to enslave humanity simply because he doesn't have too. Menton already has all the slaves he'll ever need, just by virtue of being on this planet, and so just torments people out of pure boredom and spite.

 

Okay, he could make his victims forget everything, but what's the fun in that compared to having that young woman remember how she was degraded by someone she loves best? I.e., Menton makes her remember all her torments as having come from her father/husband/brother/whatever.

 

Imagine Menton starting up a new 'Satanic Panic' just for laughs. You don't have to; he already did. And when the cameras roll and the public screams for blood and stunned innocents are reduced to gibbering helplessness on national TV, he just sits back in his chair, has that supermodel shake, not stir, his martini, and starts planning what he'll do to everyone tomorrow.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Well, remember, Takofanes' "evil account" also has the balance Kal-Turak the Ravager racked up, and that's all before he withered into lich-brained Takofanes...

 

... and it's not like that guy ended global civilization and destroyed an entire era of man or anything. Oh, wait.

 

Kal-Turak, yeah, possibly the most evil being to walk the earth (or top three, or whatever). But as you've noted before, Takofanes is but a shadow of Kal-Turak.

[Trencher]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Well... not quite true. There was a mass rapist turned serial killer' date=' Bruno Ludke. [/quote'] It is true because I said almost all. Crime per crime there was less crime in nazi Germany than ordinary Germany.

My reasoning is that it is because not of a nazi run state being better than a democratic one but because they make crime legal against certain groups thereby giving criminals something to do.

I really do wish someone would make a documentary/drama concerning his career and how he was caught. It would be a different sort of story' date=' that's for sure. I mean, who would you cheer for: the demented sex slayer or the Nazi state trying to hunt him down? [/quote']

It does not sound like they tried to hunt him down, but rather that they got lucky. If he had been more cooperative with the gestapo he might have become a death camp guard instead. Many of the kapos where German criminals.

In any case I cheer for the state to hunt him down. It is not like he fights them after all he just hunts innocents.

[Starlord]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

I don't think I understand your choice of words. But if I should agree with you and say that a more powerful' date=' destructive and driven villain is more evil than your average street rat then I say that Dr. Destroyer is the evilest.[/quote']

 

Actually, then that would be Takofanes who, as its been pointed out, has done far more 'destroying' in his day than Destroyer. Also, going by stats, Takofanes has more personal power than Destroyer.

[Starlord]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

You know' date=' back when DC was running their whole [i']Eclipso: The Darkness Within[/i] mini-series, I recall a discussion between Eclipso and Darkseid comparing the relative ranking of their evil acts. For an example of the magnitude of his own evil, Eclipso recounted his bringing on a great disaster (IIRC it was the Great Flood of Biblical and other tradition), devastating the surface of the Earth and drowning millions. Darkseid countered with a story of a boy among the New Gods that he had met in his youth, a boy of artistic talent and a love of beauty. Darkseid tricked that boy into committing heinous acts, confusing and manipulating him until he became twisted, his only joy the suffering of others. That boy's name was Desaad.

 

Sorry, but this just amounts to the writer trying to be cute. Darkseid's tale seems to be a more 'personal' one, therefore garnering more empathy from the reader. Yet, in the end, Eclipso ruined countless lives and Darkseid ruined one.

 

Eclipso wins.

[Starlord]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

But as you've noted before' date=' Takofanes is but a shadow of Kal-Turak.[/quote']

 

Only in his level of personal power as far as we know.

[aylwin13]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Who's the most evil villain in CU?

The author of European Enemies.

 

 

Or maybe Dr. Destroyer.

[Trencher]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Actually' date=' then that would be Takofanes who, as its been pointed out, has done far more 'destroying' in his day than Destroyer. Also, going by stats, Takofanes has more personal power than Destroyer.[/quote']

I am going to reread his story again.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Who's the most evil villain in CU?

 

Once again, it has taken a villain of The Joker's calibre to show us true evil...