entangle

[steph]

one of my player play a kind of spider mage: one of is spell are a web armor (5pd,5ed) now what he want is when someone attack him in melee attack is armor got a defensive reaction to put the foe in a kind of entangle how make that i know i probably have to use trigger but how to fixed all this

hope i am clear

english not my first language

stef le quebecois

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: entangle

 

He would need to buy Entangle with Continuous and Damage Shield.

[ghost-angel]

Re: entangle

 

Possibly Linked to the Armor so it only works when the Web Armor is active.

[Dust Raven]

Re: entangle

 

What they said. If you do Link them, the Linked value is reduced though, because Armor is a Persistant Power.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: entangle

 

Or here's a different and wacky way to buy it...

 

Instead of building the web armor as 5/5 Armor, then buying a separate power for the effect of entangling the attacker, what about something like this:

 

Web Armor: Entangle 5 DEF/5d6, Sticky (+1/2), Personal Immunity (+1/4).

 

With this build, using the Web Armor spell means Entangling yourself! Since you have Personal Immunity, it doesn't hinder you. But anyone attacking you has to get through the Entangle (giving you protection), and if they struck you in hand-to-hand combat, they're now Entangled as well (because your Entangle is Sticky)!

[prestidigitator]

Re: entangle

 

Or here's a different and wacky way to buy it...

 

Instead of building the web armor as 5/5 Armor, then buying a separate power for the effect of entangling the attacker, what about something like this:

 

Web Armor: Entangle 5 DEF/5d6, Sticky (+1/2), Personal Immunity (+1/4).

 

With this build, using the Web Armor spell means Entangling yourself! Since you have Personal Immunity, it doesn't hinder you. But anyone attacking you has to get through the Entangle (giving you protection), and if they struck you in hand-to-hand combat, they're now Entangled as well (because your Entangle is Sticky)!

The problem with that, I believe, is the character attacking targets outside of the Entangle. We've been through this argument before.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: entangle

 

The problem with that' date=' I believe, is the character attacking targets outside of the Entangle. We've been through this argument before. [/quote']We have?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that the character would have problems attacking targets outside the Entangle. Why would that be?

[Old Man]

Re: entangle

 

We have?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by saying that the character would have problems attacking targets outside the Entangle. Why would that be?

 

Yeah, please explain. If the mage has Personal Immunity, then he isn't affected at all right?

[BNakagawa]

Re: entangle

 

Yeah' date=' please explain. If the mage has Personal Immunity, then he isn't affected at all right?[/quote']

Well, sure, except that if he's personally immune to the entangle, he isn't getting the defense, either. Not affected is not afffected.

[Old Man]

Re: entangle

 

I don't think it's a matter of not getting DEF. prestidigitator said something about the mage not being able to attack.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: entangle

 

Well' date=' sure, except that if he's personally immune to the entangle, he isn't getting the defense, either. Not affected is not afffected.[/quote']I disagree. Just because he's not affected by the Entangle doesn't make the Entangle somehow desolid to someone else.

[ghost-angel]

Re: entangle

 

I disagree. Just because he's not affected by the Entangle doesn't make the Entangle somehow desolid to someone else.

I'm with Derek on that point - Personal Immunity means you're not affected by it, but everyone else is. That's the whole point of PI.

[Dust Raven]

Re: entangle

 

Not affected is not affected. No Entangle happens, thus no loss of movement, no protection, no entangle. You might as well write up an EB with PI and shoot yourself with it hoping the KB will move you around without damage.

[BNakagawa]

Re: entangle

 

it's called a damage shield.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: entangle

 

Not affected is not affected. No Entangle happens' date=' thus no loss of movement, no protection, no entangle.[/quote']So if I have an Energy Blast with PI, and someone Reflects it back at me, it's your contention that the reflection just never happens? I don't see that. I would assume the Energy Blast is reflected back at me, I just don't take any damage from it.

 

Comparing Entangle to Energy Blast is kinda apples-and-oranges, because Entangle is a continuing-effect power, and Energy Blast isn't.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: entangle

 

it's called a damage shield.

Okay, so now it sounds like you're not arguing that an Entangle with PI wouldn't work... now you're arguing that it's not the "right" way to build it...?

[BNakagawa]

Re: entangle

 

It's like saying I want to buy shrinking with personal immunity. I want the extra dcv and the - to perception rolls, but I don't want the extra knockback or the movement penalties.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: entangle

 

It's like saying I want to buy shrinking with personal immunity. I want the extra dcv and the - to perception rolls' date=' but I don't want the extra knockback or the movement penalties.[/quote']I still think you're comparing apples and oranges. Shrinking is a self-only Power by default. All the things you mentioned about Shrinking (except perhaps the perception mods) are things that happen to the user anyway. So of course buying Personal Immunity to it is hard to imagine.

 

But Entangle is a different kind of beast. When an Entangle is used, it has certain effects on the person inside the Entangle, and certain effects on people outside the Entangle. For example...

 

The person inside:

• Can't move.
• Is DCV 0.
• Suffers halved Hit Location penalties.
• Suffers sensory loss if the Entangle is bought to block senses.

People outside:

• Have to go through the Entangle's DEF/BODY to get to the person inside. (Note that nothing in the rules says this works both ways... nothing says that an Entangled character has to shoot through the Entangle's DEF/BODY to hit someone outside it.)
• Also suffer sensory loss (i.e., can't sense into the Entangle) if the Entangle is bought to block senses.
• Can attack the Entangle without harming the character with a -3 OCV mod.
• Can often touch the character without touching the Entangle, depending on SFX (in the case of a Web Armor spell, this might be based on Hit Location or some such).

So as I see it, Personal Immunity applied to Entangle would have differing effects, depending on who it was used on. If you have an Entangle with Personal Immunity, and you Entangle someone else with it, then you are immune to the factors that normally affect people outside the Entangle (since you are outside the Entangle). If you are attacked by an Entangle you have Personal Immunity to (because you used it on yourself, or someone Reflected it at you, or it's your evil twin's Entangle and your Personal Immunity applies to his Powers, etc.), then you are immune to the factors that normally affect people inside the Entangle (since you are inside the Entangle).

 

Few other Powers have this kind of built-in dichotomy. Entangle's kind of an oddball...

[Dust Raven]

Re: entangle

 

So if I have an Energy Blast with PI' date=' and someone Reflects it back at me, it's your contention that the reflection just never happens? I don't see that. I would assume the Energy Blast is reflected back at me, I just don't take any damage from it.[/quote']

Um... I'm saying that when the EB is reflected back, the character is completely unaffected by it. Nothing happens.

 

Comparing Entangle to Energy Blast is kinda apples-and-oranges, because Entangle is a continuing-effect power, and Energy Blast isn't.

Actually, Entangle is an Instant Power with lasting effects, just like Energy Blast. The only difference is the effects that last. For EB, it's a loss of STUN and possibly BODY, for Entangle, it's a loss of motion.

[Dust Raven]

Re: entangle

 

So as I see it, Personal Immunity applied to Entangle would have differing effects, depending on who it was used on. If you have an Entangle with Personal Immunity, and you Entangle someone else with it, then you are immune to the factors that normally affect people outside the Entangle (since you are outside the Entangle). If you are attacked by an Entangle you have Personal Immunity to (because you used it on yourself, or someone Reflected it at you, or it's your evil twin's Entangle and your Personal Immunity applies to his Powers, etc.), then you are immune to the factors that normally affect people inside the Entangle (since you are inside the Entangle).

 

Few other Powers have this kind of built-in dichotomy. Entangle's kind of an oddball...

 

So if you shoot someone with an EB you have Personal Immunnity to, you're immune to the increased Range Penalty you've received from knocked him further back?

[prestidigitator]

Re: entangle

 

My point was that Personal Immunity may make the character immune to the effects of the Entangle, but it doesn't make his or her Powers ignore the Entangle. (S)he can walk through the Entangle or shrug it off just fine, but that doesn't mean (s)he can shoot through it. Just like Force Wall. The mage would need at least a minimal level of Indirect on the attack power to really take the full benefit of the Entangle's protection while still being able to attack.

 

Now the character may be able to get some Concealment benefit from the Entangle, but at the least will have to stick out a weapon or bodypart to make the attack and become somewhat exposed. If I were the opponent I would wait for such an opportunity with a Delayed Phase and then target the character at the moment of exposure just before (or after) the attack. If I had an Area of Effect to use with the Delayed Phase things would be ideal, as Concealment probably wouldn't offer much help (unless the attack is Aborted in order for the character to Dive for Cover back inside--not an option if you wait until just after the character's attack and go in the same Segment).

 

Also in most cases I would probably rule that if the character has Personal Immunity on the Entangle then they can't anchor it to themself, so it isn't going to be very mobile.

[Sean Waters]

Re: entangle

 

If you buy force wall with personal immunity you certainly can't attack through it.

 

My view is that using entangle (personal immunity) as a defence is abusive as it is perverting the intention of the power, turning an attack power into a defensive one.

 

If you are inside the entangle then you can not attack someone on the outside without either stepping out (which your PI might let you do) or attacking through the entangle, damaging it.

 

Personal immunity, in this instance does something very specific: if your entangle is reflected at you it does not entangle you, that is all you get.

 

You can not 'ghost' through your own entangle barriers and, depending on the sfx possibly, I possibly would not even let you target yourself with the entangle.

 

One other thing: if the entangle simply did not exist for you then you think you can entangle a target then attack that target THROUGH the entangle without damaging it?

 

I'd say not.

 

I think personal immunity means, simply, you are immune to the attack bit of a power you are immune to, that is it. Entangle is confusing because it is in fact at least two different powers masquerading as one.

 

Others have put it far more cogently.

 

Back to the original question, you need damage shield or a triggered entangle. The latter will almost certainly be a lot cheaper.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: entangle

 

My point was that Personal Immunity may make the character immune to the effects of the Entangle' date=' but it doesn't make his or her [i']Powers[/i] ignore the Entangle. (S)he can walk through the Entangle or shrug it off just fine, but that doesn't mean (s)he can shoot through it. Just like Force Wall. The mage would need at least a minimal level of Indirect on the attack power to really take the full benefit of the Entangle's protection while still being able to attack.

Show me where in the book it says that an Entangled character has to either exceed an Entangle's DEF/BODY or somehow get around it in order to attack. That is only mentioned in connection with someone attacking into an Entangle... not with attacking out of one.

[GoldenAge]

Re: entangle

 

Would it help if we looked at powers as instant, constant and persistant?

 

Immunity against Instant Attack Power is easy to understand... BANG! Oops, it didn't work. End of story.

 

Persistant Powers are more complex...

 

 

Armor is a Persistant Power: The power stays activated unless the character deliberately turns it off...

 

Entangle is an Instant Power: The power lasts just long enough for the character using the power to make an attack roll.

[Sean Waters]

Re: entangle

 

Unfortunately entangle is hybrid power, which creates quite disperate effects.

 

One one hand it can be used to prevent someone from moving.

 

Then it can be used to create barriers.

 

The idea that they can be part of one power seems rooted in the conceptual beginnings of the 'power' - let's face it - Spiderman. I think , in this, whilst it may have stripped away the language that may make it obvious, Hero has created a mechanic based on sfx.

 

I would rather see the 'barriers' bit stripped out (you can pretty muc do the same thing with FW anyway, or could with a little tinkering), and entangle defined as an immobilisation power, pure and simple.

 

BTW I asked Mr Long about attacking through an entangle that you are in and here is what he said:

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39191