Opinion: EuroStar

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

> Right Chuck, don't listen to anything I'm actually saying. Eurostar's

> not allowed to act competently

 

"Competently" does not mean "your opponent is automatically an unaware, defenseless victim".

 

> because ChuckG sayeth so, they may not use any of thier considerable

> tactical skill because ChuckG sayeth so, they might not fight in an

> intelligent manner because ChuckG sayeth so. Only characters ChuckG

> likes are permitted to have any sort of advantage in a fight or try to

> gain an advantage.

 

Yes, I have meanly and viciously insisted that Gravitar have the advantage of, oh, flying. Oh, wait, she's the world's most powerful gravity controller. Obviously, she should walk. n/m that 30" Flight, x4 Noncombat, listed on her sheet. She will never actually think to use it to, you know, help her fight a team the majority of whom are ground-bound melee fighters.

 

I have been arguing, all along, for an arena-style match -- neither side gets prep time or bonuses, they simply get to start off in combat stance, each on their side of the battle map, and ready to close and pound.

 

Under which circumstances... no prep or situational advantage for either side... Gravitar will wipe the floor with them.

 

The fact that Eurostar must get so many lucky breaks and/or DM gimmes simply to have *any chance at all* only underlines who the actual winner of any real fight between the two is overwhelmingly likely to be.

 

> Feel free to ignore the point I was trying to make, which is that there

> are myriad ways Eurostar could get around the power advantage that

> Gravitar has in order to defeat her.

 

You have yet to list one single way that doesn't require Gravitar to either conveniently take a dive, walk around stupidly bereft of defenses, or for Eurostar to ignore their own disads and limitations.

[massey]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

No' date=' according to the rules she gets her breakout roll the first phase after the Mind Control is established. She also remains under the influence of the Mind Control untill she does make her breakout roll. So if Gravitar were acting normally and Mentalla succeeded in mind controlling her to keep acting normally [for the sake of example, let's say she's shopping'] the Gravitar would act normally [in this case shopping] untill the Breakout roll is made. The breakout roll does not prevent her from following the command, at least not as the power is worded in the rulebook.

 

As for the poisoned dart, in the scenario I postulated Eurostar was trying to set up a situation wherein Scorpia could throw the dart from surprise before Gravitar realised she was under attack. If it was successful, the poisoned dart would've hit an unprotected Gravitar and thus effected her. I realise it wouldn't have gotten through her forcefield otherwise.

 

Read the section on mental powers and breakout rolls in general. You get the breakout roll before the power takes effect.

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Read the section on mental powers and breakout rolls in general. You get the breakout roll before the power takes effect.

 

That's not what it says in the description of the power itself. It clearly says there that the first breakout roll comes the first phase after mind control is established and the mind control is in effect untill the breakout roll is successful. Unless of course you're talking about the roll to resist being mind controlled in the first place?

 

Could we possibly be confused as to what constitutes a breakout roll?

[Gary]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Mentalla would be better off with a straight Pushed Ego Blast. An 8d6 ego blast has a 30.5% chance of rolling 31+, and a 14- to hit with a 54.6% chance of at least tying initiative means .907*.546*.305= 15.1% chance of victory.

[Marketeer]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Guys, this thread is beginning to look like any of innumerous NGD political threads.

 

Chill, take a step back.

 

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Guys, this thread is beginning to look like any of innumerous NGD political threads.

 

Chill, take a step back.

 

 

Since I have no wish to continue this nonsense with Chuck, consider me stepped back.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Perhaps another branch of Eurostar should start up; One branch could focus on Eastern Europe and the other Western Europe.

They could franchise. And why stick within Europe? I'm seeing Eurasianstar...Afristar...Great Lakes Eurostar...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Why not start the fight off with Gravitar asleep in her bed and Eurostar in a stolen B-52 bomber orbiting above her villa with a 2000-lb JDAM locked in on her bedroom' date=' while we're at it?[/quote']

 

That would certainly be my preferred method for taking on Gravitar. And for our team's next encounter with Eurostar, we're going to see if we can borrow a GPS-guided 15,000 pound "daisy cutter" bomb from the USAF and kick it out the cargo ramp of our starship onto Eurostar's heads. Bombs away!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Obviously' date=' she should walk. n/m that 30" Flight, x4 Noncombat, listed on her sheet. She will never actually think to use it to, you know, help her fight a team the majority of whom are ground-bound melee fighters.[/quote']

 

That actually sems fair since you are consistently arguing that Eurostar shouldf ignore their above average intelligences, teamwork skills and tactical expertise (also on their character sheets) and enter a cage match against Gravitar, coming in as a unit so they may be conveniently targetted in a group. [How well does that 50 STR AE TK work if Gravitar is also in that 21" diameter circle in order to catch all her opponents? I haven't read her stats so maybe it's a Selective Area, but I suspect not since that would mean she has to roll to hit each individual member of Eurostar, and no one has raised that issue.]

 

I have been arguing' date=' all along, for an arena-style match -- neither side gets prep time or bonuses, they simply get to start off in combat stance, each on their side of the battle map, and ready to close and pound.[/quote']

 

So, basically, removing any beenfit that Eurostar gets from points spent on skills which would enable them to prepare, which, as much or ore than their powers, is what makes them a formidable force. Of course, a "no prep - close and pound" scenario would favour the character whose points are oinvested almost exclusively in combat abilities.

 

Under which circumstances... no prep or situational advantage for either side... Gravitar will wipe the floor with them.

 

Under such circumstances, I would expect Eurostar to focus their formidable skills, tactical expertise and intelligence on an "escape and regroup" objective. Bricks (and anyone freed by them) distract and/or remove characters from 50 STR TK. Use those movement powers to add to STR to escape TK.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Come on guys' date=' this is lame. Let's talk about anything else.[/quote']

 

Batman would soooo beat Gravitar.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

> That actually sems fair since you are consistently arguing that Eurostar

> should ignore their above average intelligences, teamwork skills and

> tactical expertise (also on their character sheets) and enter a cage

> match against Gravitar, coming in as a unit so they may be

> conveniently targetted in a group.

 

And precisely how does their 'tactical expertise' make up for the fact that as her first action, Gravitar can Half Move 15" up (edit: or sideways, or slantways, or anyways) ... which places her outside the Half Move and Attack range of every single member of Eurostar (save Mentalla, whose attack range is LOS)... while simultaneously smashing Mentalla into la-la land? And that her place in the initiative order means she can do this before anyone except Scorpia, who is entirely irrelevant to this fight, can move?

 

There ain't no amount of tactics that can make up for the fact that the other person just can't get caught by you unless she deliberately stands still and lets you slam her. The reason I am letting Gravitar pick the terms and the range is because she can disengage at will, and Eurostar has absolutely no way to catch her. She never *has* to fight except on terms of her own choosing.

 

The *only* circumstance under which this does not apply is what Twilight kept wanting -- the circumstance where Gravitar starts out with all of her defenses down, and is entirely unaware of Eurostar's existence until after they've all had a chance to take free shots.

 

But that goes beyond 'Eurostar's tactical expertise' to 'Eurostar is handed every possible gimme for free', which means, we are no longer arguing an even roughly even scenario.

 

As to why they have to come in as a group?

 

Gravitar's AE TK is 11" *Radius*. For Eurostar to not get multiple members caught in it, they all have to separate at least *22* hexes apart.

 

But if they're all that far apart, none of them can support the other. And all of their members w/o special movement powers will need multiple Phases just to reach wherever the action is, especially given that Gravitar can zip around the battlefield at a rate of speed none of them can match. Which means the fight is no longer 'Gravitar vs. Eurostar', but 'Gravitar vs. individual members of Eurostar, one at a time'.

 

If they spread out, they can't hope to coordinate attacks, and God knows none of them can hope to slow her down solo. If they don't spread out, she smashes them all at once.

 

Gravitar's design is pretty much *optimized* for solo'ing teams of Eurostar's power level. They have no chance because they're simply too far outgunned, and the usual edge that makes up for 'team vs. powerful solo opponent' -- that the team can, collectively, take a lot more actions than the solo opponent -- ceases to apply when the solo opponent has an attack designed to immobilize entire teams with a single shot, *and* is fast enough to have good odds of getting initiative on every team member who has any hope of actually CON Stunning her enough to give the rest of the team a window of opportunity.

 

[snip]

> Under such circumstances, I would expect Eurostar to focus their formidable skills, tactical expertise and

> intelligence on an "escape and regroup" objective. Bricks (and anyone freed by them) distract and/or remove

> characters from 50 STR TK. Use those movement powers to add to STR to escape TK.

 

Which means that Gravitar now has several free Phases to keep attacking Eurostar while none of them are firing back at her, because they're using up their actions just trying to break free or help others do so.

 

... you thought she was just going to keep floating around while they all worked free? You've forgotten that she can maintain that TK *while using her other powers*. That Area Effect TK attack was bought /outside/ her power frameworks, and she has enough END to keep it up (edit -- actually, her Area Effect TK holdown is 0 END) for at least a Turn while going Multiple-Power-Attack with any one of her other offensive options, simultaneously.

 

Her first move wipes out Mentalla. Her second one pins the rest of the team. And after that, she holds them pinned while simultaneously smashing them down one at a time (or in the case of Durak, simply using her UAA Flight to nail him to the sky, as a groundbound brick floating in mid-air is about as helpless as helpless gets).

 

My original post, the one that blockquoted Jeff Kramer's playtest notes -- remember, he actually gamed this fight out, not just theorized about it -- goes into this in more detail. It's back around page 6.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

And precisely how does their 'tactical expertise' make up for the fact that as her first action' date=' Gravitar can Half Move 15" up... which places her outside the Half Move and Attack range of every single member of Eurostar (save Mentalla, whose attack range is LOS)... while simultaneously smashing Mentalla into la-la land? And that her place in the initiative order means she can do this before anyone except Scorpia, who is entirely irrelevant to this fight, can move?[/quote']

 

Simple - they've dealt with Gravitar before. They shold know that, if Gravitar is fully aware of them and half moves 15" up, they should use their actions to scatter and flee. As you have pointed out, and I agree, in a straight up fight, Eurostar needs at least a minor miracle to win. They aren't going to stick around and face those odds. When Gravitar uses Ph 12 to get out of their convenient range, Eurostar should be using Phase 12 to get to cover, and their next phases to retreat.

 

There ain't no amount of tactics that can make up for the fact that the other person just can't get caught by you unless she deliberately stands still and lets you slam her. The reason I am letting Gravitar pick the terms and the range is because she can disengage at will' date=' and Eurostar has absolutely no way to catch her. She never *has* to fight except on terms of her own choosing.[/quote']

 

Since Eurostar can be assured of victory only if surprise is on their side, I would expect them to move in only if they can be reasonably assured surprise will be on their side. This most likely means (and again, I haven't read the 5e writeups) an amubush which allows Scorpia to Rapid Attack from hiding with curare darts while Gravitar has her defenses down. Don't stick around to see if she somehow survives - run like hell and read tomorrow's newspaper. Either she died, or she wreaked holy havoc on the surrounding area (atracting the wrath of tjose pesky SuperHeroes who get all squeamish when there's a few dozen bloody civilian casualties).

 

As to why they have to come in as a group?

 

Gravitar's AE TK is 11" *Radius*. For Eurostar to not get multiple members caught in it, they all have to separate at least *22* hexes apart.

 

Or each be several hexes away from Gravitar at a different point on the compass, such that the only way to catch them all is for Gravitar to also target herself with her TK. [Maybe she has personal immunity?] Alternatively, split into two or three groups approaching from different compass points.

 

Possibly coming in as three groups leaving Mentalla conveniently in hiding as she really is the only one that stands a shot at slowing Gravitar down. Gravitar has superior movement and attacks, but Mentalla can target from Line of Sight and need not stand out in the open - Mentalist Sniper is their best chance if they have to engage Gravitar in the open. [Maybe leave their new Brick as a bodyguard for Mentalla. "I'll reserve - if Gravitar gets close enough, I'll Grab her in a bear hug."]

 

Unquestionably, if they don't set themselves up for a win, Eurostar is going to lose. Eurostar doesn't play to lose, so they will make every effort to set themselves up for the win. If their plan goes south, they aren't likely to hang around and fight to the bitter end - those noble actions are left for the Heroes, and Eurostar are most assuredly the Villains.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

> When Gravitar uses Ph 12 to get out of their convenient range,

> Eurostar should be using Phase 12 to get to cover, and their next

> phases to retreat.

 

Retreat? Vs. somebody who's faster and more mobile than they are?

 

Gravitar can fall back to whatever range she chooses, and stay there regardless of where Eurostar moves. They can't outrun her, and if they try to hide in a city landscape (assuming they're even fighting in one), she's got no moral qualms about collapsing skyscrapers to trap them in the rubble, if that's what it takes.

 

Not to mention that at least two members of Eurostar (Durak and Feuermacher) find it pretty much impossible to be stealthy, ever.

 

> Since Eurostar can be assured of victory only if surprise is on their

> side, I would expect them to move in only if they can be reasonably

> assured surprise will be on their side.

 

But short of handing them Gravitar's secret ID on a platter -- which would be a ridiculous gimme -- they cannot arrange for such circumstances. Gravitar does not appear in public as 'Gravitar' unless she's expecting a fight. When she's relaxing or socializing, she's 'Erica d'Montressart', wealthy French socialite, and Eurostar (along with UNTIL, the superhero community, and the rest of her Hunted list) has absolutely no idea that Erica exists.

 

> This most likely means (and again, I haven't read the 5e writeups) [snip]

 

You should stop right her and not try to analyze this fight until you have. Because you cannot realistically evaluate the odds until you know the actual strengths and weaknesses of both sides, as opposed to what you're vaguely imagining for both sides.

[MitchellS]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Just as a point of reference for everyone, Gravitar can only half-move up 7-8" unless she wants to go non-combat [which will cut her CV in half]. I'd also rule that on a phase where Gravitar chose to make a half-move Mentalla would get to attack first [unless she also choose to make a half-move] due to them having the same initiative and Gravitar wasting the first half of her's to move. At that point Gravitar loses.

 

Let's also look at this tactically, Mentalla doesn't even need to get out of bed to defeat Gravitar. She can easily get an ego +20 with her mind scan and just blast the crap out of Gravitar while she's taking a bath. Eurostar can just walk into her bathroom and push her head under the water and let her drown. That's why I think this whole Eurostar/Gravitar feud is stupid. Eurostar doesn't need to call-out Gravitar or make a frontal assault. They can easily kill Gravitar and just hang her body from the Eiffel Tower as a warning to all others.

[MitchellS]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Batman would soooo beat Gravitar.

If Nighthawk can't beat her then Batman can't beat her.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

> Just as a point of reference for everyone, Gravitar can only half-move

> up 7-8" unless she wants to go non-combat [which will cut her CV in

> half].

 

Wrong. Gravitar's flight is 30" base. Her Half Move is 15".

 

... have *none* of the Eurostar boosters here actually read Gravitar's character sheet? I've had to correct you all on virtually *every* point of detail. Pity I can't get away with scanning the first page as well as the second.

 

[snip]

> Let's also look at this tactically, Mentalla doesn't even need to get out of bed to defeat Gravitar. She can easily

> get an ego +20 with her mind scan and just blast the crap out of Gravitar while she's taking a bath.

 

(add) Apparently, you didn't read Mentalla's character sheet either.

 

Mentalla has ECV 8. Her CSLs apply only to her Mental Powers multipower and her Psychokinetic Abilities elemental control -- and her Mind Scan is bought separate from both frameworks, which means she has ECV 8 base to use it, period.

 

Gravitar has ECV 8. So that's a base 11- for Mentalla to Mind Scan Gravitar... if they're in the same building.

 

However, they're not start off in the same building. Mentalla gets out of bed in the morning, she's somewhere in Europe. Gravitar gets out of bed in the morning, she's somewhere in France.

 

(Edit -- actually, her writeup says that Gravitar owns multiple estates in Europe, the United States, Japan, and elsewhere. So even narrowing it down to France alone is giving Mentalla a gimme. For a real test, she'd have to mind scan the entire planet Earth, as Gravitar can potentially be on any of three or four continents... and the ECV modifier to do that is -20.)

 

So, in your scenario, Mentalla has to Mind Scan all of France.

 

Population of France -- 60.5 million.

 

ECV modifier for mind scanning a population of 60 million minds... depending on whether you round up or down, it's either -14 or -16 ECV. (Page 206, 5e revised).

 

Hell, Mentalla's at -14 ECV simply to Mind Scan Paris. (Paris population including the suburbs, approx. 10 million. ECV modifier for a population of 10 million, -14. Voila.)

 

We can kinda guess Mentalla's odds here.

[MitchellS]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Wrong. Gravitar's flight is 30" base. Her Half Move is 15".

 

... have *none* of the Eurostar boosters here actually read Gravitar's character sheet? I've had to correct you all on virtually *every* point of detail. Pity I can't get away with scanning the first page as well as the second.

Do you not know the rules? When going UP you gain 1" of up for 2" of movement! Maybe you should read the rules? That's about the 4th time you have been wrong about them.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

> Just as a point of reference for everyone, Gravitar can only half-move

> up 7-8" unless she wants to go non-combat [which will cut her CV in

> half].

 

Wrong. Gravitar's flight is 30" base. Her Half Move is 15".

 

... have *none* of the Eurostar boosters here actually read Gravitar's character sheet? I've had to correct you all on virtually *every* point of detail. Pity I can't get away with scanning the first page as well as the second.

 

...I believe the point is that gaining elevation costs double.

[OddHat]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

If Nighthawk can't beat her then Batman can't beat her.

 

Dude, Batman beats everyone. All our base are belong to him!

 

Nightduck = Foxbat Fanboy.

 

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

...I believe the point is that gaining elevation costs double.

 

... because of the effects of gravity, something that I didn't think Gravitar had to worry about. I'd give it to her simply based on adjudicating special effect and common sense.

 

But OK, fine, be relentlessly literal and apply it anyway. Then on her turn, as she moves up, she also does a multiple power attack... her TK field on Eurostar, and her Flight UAA or gravity manipulation on *herself*(1). Voila, extra anti-gravity boost.

 

Edit -- or she can simply use her full NC movement and shoot as far as up as she likes -- 1/2 OCV won't bug her, she's attacking a DCV 3 hex that Phase(2), and 1/2 DCV won't bug her, none of Eurostar's physical attacks can do more than muss her hair anyway.

 

Or you know, she can simply open the range sideways and up as opposed to just straight up, as her Area Effect attacks shoot just as nicely laterally as they does vertically, and 15" of separation is 15" of separation.

 

 

 

(1) Yes, the defense is 'not vs. people with gravity manipulation powers', but somehow, I doubt Gravitar's going to be using her powers to block her own shot, so, again, common sense. Or we can be relentlessly literal again and forget this, it doesn't matter, there's at least two other ways she can open the range to WTF she feels like.

 

(2) "But wait!", someobdy might ask. "She has to stop Mentalla this phase!"

 

Well, yes. She has to stop Mentalla from attacking her this phase. Blowing her into la-la land does have that effect, yes... but so does simply breaking Mentalla's LOS to her, and Mentalla won't be Mind Controlling anything but the asphalt when a 50 STR TK, Only To Hold Down Or Lift Off The Ground, pulls her over and slams her face-first to the pavement.

 

(edit) "But wait!", someone might say. "Mentalla can use her MInd Scan to attack anyway!"

 

Well, yes... except that since Mind Scan requires an ECV attack roll, using Mind Scan ends Mentalla's phase. Which means Gravitar gets another shot before Mentalla can attack anyway, and *that* one will start putting people out for the count. First pin, then crush.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Do you not know the rules? When going UP you gain 1" of up for 2" of movement! Maybe you should read the rules? That's about the 4th time you have been wrong about them.

 

Your grasp of math is as bad today as it was yesterday. Oh, and see prior post.

 

Congrats, you've just been arrogantly condescending about a rules call that doesn't actually affect the fight at all. I hope it felt good.

 

Edit -- BTW, I noticed, you suddenly forgot about the Mind Scan.

[Niles]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

To return to something closer to the original topic, I don't think Pantera ever really fit as a member of Eurostar. I think that she'd be a fine solo-villian or pick-up team Mercenary. Or else as a pocket mastermind who spends the first half of the story arc playing dumb for the PCs. In Eurostar she's kind of distracting, and somehow makes the team feel more generic.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

I never liked Pantera either. I much prefer the idea, if 5e Eurostar needs a melee boost, of having Fiacho get some cyber-upgrades installed into Scorpia.

 

Maybe he can also have them put in some psychiatric implants while they're at it. As is, the girl needs continual applications of Mind Control just to keep from knifing her fellow distaff teammate in the break room. This is known as a 'discipline problem'.

[Peregrine]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

In any case, if I were going to 'beef up' Eurostar, I wouldn't add more villains (beyond Der Westgote, since that's been proposed in canon). Instead, I'd go the other route: I'd turn them into an actual Organization. I mean, really, Fiacho's goal is to unite Europe and conquer the world, right? With the resources allotted to them in CKC, they just don't compete on the same level as true world-beaters like Dr. Destroyer, or even the Warlord. No single additional supervillain is likely to materially improve their chances of victory, short of Gravitar or Dr. D. Even adding a dozen supers won't do much to help them achieve their goals, and would probably result in a group so fractious that Fiacho couldn't hold them together. So, I think he should break down and go to Teleios or Mercs 'r' Us and hire a bunch of goons, outfit them with armor and blasters, and try to make a real showing of it.

 

As an aside: Am I the only one who finds the concept of a Eurostar-VIPER war somewhat ludicrous? The only reason individual hero groups are a threat to VIPER is because VIPER is so spread out. The same applies to Eurostar. If VIPER really set out to 'fight a war' with Eurostar, either six villains with impressive but not overwhelming power would get overrun in an open fight, or both groups would spend a lot of time sneaking around Europe looking for each other, with Eurostar maybe picking off a few unlucky VIPER squads. This would continue until everyone got bored and gave up.

 

Ultimately, I think Fiacho's smart enough to realize that he's going to have to get his act together and hire an army, or at least an actual espionage organization, to get anywhere.

 

Edited for spelling

 

Interesting. I had a similar idea for Eurostar, though the context is a bit different, as my campaign world has Eurostar as the official superteam of the EU (after all, United Europe is Fiacho's stated goal, and 'under my vision/control' is a 5e addition to keep Eurostar as a villain group). After the '90s Eurostar/VIPER war, Fiacho came to a similar conclusion to yours and has been building an organization of his own. Reflecting the anti-US sentiment building in Europe for the last few years, I added that Fiacho now has a one-way rivalry with PRIMUS, the Avengers in particular, and the Golden Avenger specifically.

 

Teleios may not be a direct resource for Fiacho, though, because Teleios is quite... different in my campaign world. The Warlord, on the other hand, would be quite available to provide the needed personnel and resources - all on the EU's dime.

[Peregrine]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

They could franchise. And why stick within Europe? I'm seeing Eurasianstar...Afristar...Great Lakes Eurostar...

 

EMEAStar. (EMEA = Europe, Middle East, Africa. A high percentage of international companies are using that as an organizational grouping, though it tends to be Mediterranean-focused in a lot of, though not all, such cases.)