Opinion: EuroStar

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

> I don't really buy that. In my opinion, the purpose of

> both Gravitar and Eurostar -- what they're *supposed* to

> do -- is to provide foes for the PCs (or at least, PCs of

> some level) to fight. Gravitar has abusive constructs built

> into her -- constructs the GM needs to be careful of

> because they can be unbalancingly effective, which

> makes the game less fun. They've already got "GM

> approval" in one sense (the approval of Steve Long et

> al.), but if the PCs can't handle it, no matter how

> creative and inventive they are, then the GM needs to

> tone her down if he expects the PCs to stop her.

 

The way I handle it is simply to never use Gravitar as an antagonist unless a) the players are expected to resolve the encounter in some method other than combat (i.e. -- she's a neutral encounter or a social foil, not a primary antagonist) or the player party is notably more powerful than Eurostar.

 

For example, I played for some years in a 750-point campaign, "New Sentinels". We were RP'ing the world's most powerful superteam, sort of like the animated Justice League. The DM was the aforementioned Jeff Kramer, the man who I quoted earlier as having gamed out the Gravitar vs. Eurostar fight in full detail.

 

If we had ever fought Gravitar, he'd have used the same tactics on us, without any holding back.

 

And we'd still have wiped the floor with her, because the New Sentinels were their world's mightiest heroes, and going strictly by the point writeups without her holding back at all, we'd still whup her ****. One of the plot points of the campaign was Gravitar letting herself be recruited onto our world's equivalent of the Injustice Gang, because she *knew* she couldn't take us by herself.

 

Basically, yes, Gravitar is obscenely powerful. But IMO, the way to handle a most powerful villain is to save them only for most powerful games, not to deliberately gimp them down so that the players can win at lower power levels.

 

In my experience -- yours might be different -- hard-core roleplayers would rather earn a lesser reward by honest sweat and blood than be given all the kingdoms of the earth via DM's kindness. (Munchkins, of course, do it the exact opposite way, but I don't DM for munchkins. More than once.)

[Starlord]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Eurostar vs. the Galactic Champions?

 

HEY! The Galactic Champions vs. Gravitar!?

 

Aww, nevermind.

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Well, as Eurostar has begun somewhat underpowered, it would seem somewhat cheesy to suddenly elevate each individuals power level. IMO it all comes back to increasing membership size, keeping in mind that said new members have to kowtow, at least somewhat, to Fiacho's leadership and main goals. We need to figure out who would best fit those roles.

 

...or we could up the ante and argue a fight between Doctor Destroyer and Gravitar.

 

HECK NO, I've had enough of versus arguements thank you very much.

 

As for the cheesyness of elevating the power level of each member, so long as they don't spontaneously become powerful enough to make Superman soil his tights at the mere thought of facing them then it's ok. To be more precise, so long as thier power level increases in relation to that of the players I don't think there is a problem.

 

This of course assumes that the GM in question wants to keep Eurostar a challenge to the characters, rather then just letting the characters get powerful enough to effortlessly wipe the floor with Eurostar.

 

That said, more members is good too. See what I said in an earlier post regarding the recruitment of Pantera and her Daddy.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

A - Gravitar + (M1A1 + Batman + Dr. Destroyer)

 

vs

 

B - Eurostar + (Battleship + Captain America + Takofanes)

 

 

And I still think they could use a Black Manta type. Water based solid gadgeteer.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Well' date=' as Eurostar has begun somewhat underpowered, it would seem somewhat cheesy to suddenly elevate each individuals power level. IMO it all comes back to increasing membership size, keeping in mind that said new members have to kowtow, at least somewhat, to Fiacho's leadership and main goals. We need to figure out who would best fit those roles.[/quote']

 

Actually, the reason I'm thinking of augmenting individual members rather than add on new ones is because Eurostar is a seething powderkeg of dysfunctional personalities as is.

 

Remember, we are talking about the team where one member has to continually Mind Control another one to keep outright murder from happening in the break room. And where a third member is on the team only because the voices in his head like the team leader... for now. And a fourth member has a habit of rampaging berserk, Hulk-style, every time he gets his blood up for a good scrap. And the team leader has his own chapter in the DSM-IV. And the only really rational one also has the habit of screwing with other peoples' minds for fun. (Edit -- I suppose Feuermacher is 'rational' as well, but really, guy has his own problems.)

 

This is not a team that easily adds new members to the mix. Sure, they function together like greased gears -- Fiacho's competent at managing them. But it's a lion-tamer act he's working, every day, to *keep* them that manageable, and the last thing he needs is half a dozen new lions to upset the delicate balance... especially since nobody who isn't an outright psychopath is going to *want* to be joining Eurostar anyway.

 

So, Eurostar and recruitment, well, IMO, they have difficulties.

[Starlord]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

HECK NO, I've had enough of versus arguements thank you very much.

 

As for the cheesyness of elevating the power level of each member, so long as they don't spontaneously become powerful enough to make Superman soil his tights at the mere thought of facing them then it's ok. To be more precise, so long as thier power level increases in relation to that of the players I don't think there is a problem.

 

This of course assumes that the GM in question wants to keep Eurostar a challenge to the characters, rather then just letting the characters get powerful enough to effortlessly wipe the floor with Eurostar.

 

That said, more members is good too. See what I said in an earlier post regarding the recruitment of Pantera and her Daddy.

 

I think it would be neat to grow Eurostar until they had a member from every country in the European Union. The eventual outcome being that each member eventually rules over their individual country. As someone previously mentioned, the only true way for Eurostar to complete their stated goal is to build an army of some type. Whether it be a huge number of supers, with thousands of agents, or a combination of both. Although I believe it states somewhere that Eurostar seems to be straying away from that original goal into a simple team of murderous killers.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Although I believe it states somewhere that Eurostar seems to be straying away from that original goal into a simple team of murderous killers.

 

Which is entirely appropriate, as that's pretty much the history of any extremist terrorist group in a nutshell. The original vision -- if there ever even *was* one -- is soon lost, and it's all about the blood and anger and assorted psychoses.

[massey]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

1) Use their 4th edition writeups. Perhaps Fiacho undergoes the process that creates the Golden Avenger (or something similar) to raise to his previous levels.

2) Give Fiacho a gadget pool to represent devices he can gain from gadgetry and contacts. Perhaps he steals a teleport device which he leaves at their base and he (and other members of Eurostar) can activate from computerized wristbands. This gives them a very quick entry/exit.

3) Make liberal use of pawns. Mentalla vs Gravitar is not a fair fight, but then, neither is Mentalla vs Bulldozer. Quick mind control equals extra muscle. Alternatively, $$$ lets you bring Utility or Mechassassin to your side very quickly.

4) Increase the size of Ultrasonique's gadget pool and turn him into a full-fledged inventor.

5) They need more movement. Fiacho could get extra running and leaping, defined as "incredible acrobatics". Durak and Der Westgote could get more inches of leaping. Mentalla and Feurmacher need more flight. Ultrasonique could get a rocket pack. Scorpia could get a vanishing teleport.

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

I think it would be neat to grow Eurostar until they had a member from every country in the European Union. The eventual outcome being that each member eventually rules over their individual country. As someone previously mentioned' date=' the only true way for Eurostar to complete their stated goal is to build an army of some type. Whether it be a huge number of supers, with thousands of agents, or a combination of both. Although I believe it states somewhere that Eurostar seems to be straying away from that original goal into a simple team of murderous killers.[/quote']

 

Or they intend to achieve thier goal BY being a team of murderous killers. How they plan to manage that I don't know, but I've heard of weirder things in comic books.

 

Also, I like Supreme Serpent's idea of a Black Manta type now that I think of it. Particularly if said character is quick enough to get to almost every shore in Europe within a reasonable amount of time. Heck if he has a big enough sub he can provide thier mobile headquarters.

 

I could see them trying to subvert organised crime groups to thier cause too.

[name_tamer]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Please people can we bring this thread back to it's original topic which, as I recall, was a discussion of how Eurostar could be improved/powered up?

 

 

Looking at the sheets, including the "Campaign Use" suggestions, which are really quite helpful:

 

Upgrade Fiacho's cybernetics, improving his DEX (and maybe SPD).

 

Give Durak some brick tricks.

 

Give Feuermacher an EB boost outside of his multipower, possibly with increased END or charges (or both), much like Firewing 3000 has, and increase his Force Field. Consider buying off the "always on" on his damage shield, although this may result in some personality changes.

 

Give Mentalla some TK in her Elemental Control, and increase her Force Field. Maybe give her +2 SPD for Mental Powers only, as suggested in CKC.

 

As has been suggested, give Scorpia some cybernetic implants, improving her DEX (and maybe SPD). Make her "Sting" Penetrating instead of AP, increasing the chance the claws do damage and the STUN drain applies.

 

Give Ultrasonique an NND (vs. Hard Ear Coverings) in his Multipower, maybe another level or two with his Sonic Gauntlets, and increase his VPP to 40 points.

 

Bring back Bora (or Szybko, or whatever the name of that Polish Voice member with the teleportation suit was). Eurostar needs a movement specialist. Even if they can't beat Gravitar, they should be able to get away. (Edit: Lord Liaden actually suggested Szybko already, way back on page 2.)

[CBikle]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Scorpia -- her curare dart NND goes *ping!* vs. Gravitar's Force Field.

 

Not necessarily. The NND has a limit that it can only target unarmored locations. Depends on whether you'd consider her gravity FF to count as "armor". You could make a good argument that the SFX of her FF would stop the dart, however, technically, it won't.

 

Which means that technically, she'd take an average of 14 body and 35 stun that she receives no defense against , which means she's stunned and very, very close to bleeding to death (or, in this case, succumbing to Curare poison).

 

And she has to deal with whatever members of Eurostar are still conscious/alive.

 

That's pretty rough.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Not necessarily. The NND has a limit that it can only target unarmored [snip]

 

*sigh* Dude, this was already tried.

 

We will now take a brief moment out to recap the ridiculousness of somebody throwing a poison dart, by hand, through a force field that has a higher DEF than the USS _New Jersey_.

 

Oh, and btw, "Force Fields are *SO* Armor, dammit." is IMO something that needs to go into the next FAQ.

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

1) Use their 4th edition writeups. Perhaps Fiacho undergoes the process that creates the Golden Avenger (or something similar) to raise to his previous levels.

2) Give Fiacho a gadget pool to represent devices he can gain from gadgetry and contacts. Perhaps he steals a teleport device which he leaves at their base and he (and other members of Eurostar) can activate from computerized wristbands. This gives them a very quick entry/exit.

3) Make liberal use of pawns. Mentalla vs Gravitar is not a fair fight, but then, neither is Mentalla vs Bulldozer. Quick mind control equals extra muscle. Alternatively, $$$ lets you bring Utility or Mechassassin to your side very quickly.

4) Increase the size of Ultrasonique's gadget pool and turn him into a full-fledged inventor.

5) They need more movement. Fiacho could get extra running and leaping, defined as "incredible acrobatics". Durak and Der Westgote could get more inches of leaping. Mentalla and Feurmacher need more flight. Ultrasonique could get a rocket pack. Scorpia could get a vanishing teleport.

 

Or you could get REALLY nasty and have Der Westgote teach Durak his brick tricks. Just picture the looks on the characters faces when Durak busts out that rending and tearing attack.

[Peregrine]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

1) Use their 4th edition writeups. Perhaps Fiacho undergoes the process that creates the Golden Avenger (or something similar) to raise to his previous levels.

 

Well, if you really want that getting out of PRIMUS' hands and into the villain community, sure...

 

Overall, though, 4th Edition Eurostar was to villain teams what 4th Edition Dr. Destroyer was to solo supervillains - you do not want to mess with them. Bumping them back up to that level would be a definite power-up.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Goodness, 5e Eurostar is enough by itself to shred the living daylights out of pretty much any normal PC party, unless you are running a 450-500+ point campaign. Do they *need* that kind of powerup?

[name_tamer]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

The way I handle it is simply to never use Gravitar as an antagonist unless a) the players are expected to resolve the encounter in some method other than combat (i.e. -- she's a neutral encounter or a social foil, not a primary antagonist) or the player party is notably more powerful than Eurostar.

That seems pretty sensible.

 

For example, I played for some years in a 750-point campaign, "New Sentinels". We were RP'ing the world's most powerful superteam, sort of like the animated Justice League. The DM was the aforementioned Jeff Kramer, the man who I quoted earlier as having gamed out the Gravitar vs. Eurostar fight in full detail.

 

If we had ever fought Gravitar, he'd have used the same tactics on us, without any holding back.

 

And we'd still have wiped the floor with her, because the New Sentinels were their world's mightiest heroes, and going strictly by the point writeups without her holding back at all, we'd still whup her ****. One of the plot points of the campaign was Gravitar letting herself be recruited onto our world's equivalent of the Injustice Gang, because she *knew* she couldn't take us by herself.

Sounds like a really fun campaign.

 

Basically, yes, Gravitar is obscenely powerful. But IMO, the way to handle a most powerful villain is to save them only for most powerful games, not to deliberately gimp them down so that the players can win at lower power levels.

 

In my experience -- yours might be different -- hard-core roleplayers would rather earn a lesser reward by honest sweat and blood than be given all the kingdoms of the earth via DM's kindness.

My experience -- what there is of it -- is entirely consistent with yours. And I've always agreed, Gravitar is likely to kick Eurostar's @$$ 6 times out of 7.

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Well OF COURSE they do Chuck, why else would they be talking about it?

 

In all seriousness though, if I GM'd a game myself I'd only power them up slowly as the superteam in my game was powered up and then only to keep them as a threat to my heroes. Every campaign needs a big bad or two and Eurostar is as good as any.

[CBikle]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

*sigh* Dude' date=' this was already tried.[/quote']

 

I didn't read the entire thread, so maybe I missed this part.

 

We will now take a brief moment out to recap the ridiculousness of somebody throwing a poison dart, by hand, through a force field that has a higher DEF than the USS _New Jersey_.

 

"As the dart explodes against the Gravitic Shield, Gravitar's smug smile is replaced with a toxic grimace as she inhales a mouthful of curare"

 

Why does Gravitar's SFX get to trump over Scorpia's, especially when the rules are on her (Scorpia's) side ?

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

> Why does Gravitar's SFX get to trump over Scorpia's,

> especially when the rules are on her (Scorpia's) side

> ?

 

Scorpia's SFX is a normal blowgun dart, dude. Gravitar's SFX is that of a skintight force field capable of stopping howitzer shells, let alone small arms fire.

 

Saying that poison dart go *boink* off of blazing energy shield is just as reasonable as saying that poison dart go *boink* off of Defender's chestplate.

 

Oh, and you don't *inhale* curare, you *inject* it.

[CBikle]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Scorpia's SFX is a normal blowgun dart, dude. Gravitar's SFX is that of a skintight force field capable of stopping howitzer shells, let alone small arms fire.

 

However, technically, her FF doesn't stop the darts.

Saying that poison dart go *boink* off of blazing energy shield is just as reasonable as saying that poison dart go *boink* off of Defender's chestplate.

 

 

Oh' date=' and you don't *inhale* curare, you *inject* it.[/quote']

 

Ok, lets go with that then.

 

Who's to say that the darts don't have micro-small tips that can penetrate any unarmored surface ?

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

However' date=' [b']technically[/b], her FF doesn't stop the darts.

Saying that poison dart go *boink* off of blazing energy shield is just as reasonable as saying that poison dart go *boink* off of Defender's chestplate.

 

 

 

Ok, lets go with that then.

 

Who's to say that the darts don't have micro-small tips that can penetrate any unarmored surface ?

 

Ummm, because she's got a big forcefield up and is thus not unarmoured?

 

Hey I may not like Gravitar but even I have to admit dart vs force field pretty much always works out in favour of the force field.

[MitchellS]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Now honestly' date=' if Mentalla could 'easily' do all this, Eurostar wouldn't have ANY enemies (except those with extreme mental defenses) left either sane or alive. [/quote']

The simple reality is that character design and game systems seldom have anything to do with the genre. Game-wise any mentalist with mind scan and an independent attack can torch just about anyone who doesn't have mental defense given some time. In a logical CU Menton is the most feared person on the planet because there are only a handful of people he can't immediately deal with. Most weaker mentalists are not far behind him. PSI and those like them are the real power in the CU. It's just the nature of the game system.

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Which is the reason I don't use Menton much and hardly ever use PSI. Either that or it's my Psychological Disad: Despise Mind Control and most stories which involve it, acting up again.

 

One of the two.

[CBikle]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Ummm, because she's got a big forcefield up and is thus not unarmoured?

 

Hey I may not like Gravitar but even I have to admit dart vs force field pretty much always works out in favour of the force field.

 

I 75 % agree with you, but technically, her FF doesn't stop the darts.

 

In fairness, I believe that in 4E , one of the defenses vs. Scorpia's darts was specifically, "Force Field". I'm going by memory and could be wrong on this though.

[levi]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

I agree that the darts should effect Gravitar, regardless of SFX. SFX are not a way to get around a properly paid for NND She does however have Missile Deflection that could be used against the darts.

 

-Levi "I can't believe I got drawn into this mess" Mote

 

PS: Apologies for signature theme theft to Keith