Opinion: EuroStar

[Starlord]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

No' date=' my scenario has Mentalla in Durak's arms before the fight started. That's entirely consistent with the 'both sides hunting each other' scenario.[/quote']

 

BWAHAHAHAHA!! Now that's kinda ridiculous, Gary.

 

 

Fiacho: Durak, it's possible we might meet Gravitar in the near future. Pick up Mentalla and carry her until further notice.

 

Durak/Mentalla: Uhhhh...right...sure.

 

Mentalla drops her Mind Control of Scorpia and lets her kill Fiacho immediately.

[Agent X]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

OK, since we're taking the Lawyering approach to its finest...

 

The fact that Scorpia's darts are written up in a maner which deviates from the normal manner of writing up such constructs can be taken to indicate that they differ in some fashion from the normal construct. This could readily be taken to mean that they can penetrate some forms of resistant defenses (other than those which are "armor").

 

Given that Steve Long reviews each and every book, there must be a reason that Scorpia's power writeup deviates from the norm (this is similar to the "intention of the legislature" issue commonly argued before the Courts). The length of time CKC has been out, with this item not errata'd (many others are) further supports the assertion that her power deviates from the standard for such constructs intentionally, and is thus intended to function differently.

 

ASIDES

 

Would I allow the darts to penetrate the force field, or a force wall, in my games? No, but I would also recost the darts to reflect the fact they will generally be useless in combat with Super-level characters - it's not like Scorpia needs them to deal with normals or agents - by ensuring the limitation value is in the -1 1/2 to -2 range. But then, my games oiften deviate from the CU main line.

 

The fact that NND's vs Life Support can affect tanks and robots is a failing in the writeup of the tanks and the robots, not Scorpia's writeup. A rattlesnake should be able to take out a tank based on the same writeup issues. These vehicles/characters should be immune to all diseases and poisons, and need not breathe. They might also merit some other LS abilities. These should be considered "every automaton powers".

Steve Long is mighty but the idea that nothing slips by him, I don't accept; especially after reading some FAQs and his rules responses. Some of that stuff just makes my head hurt at the idea of actually implementing.

[Agent X]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

This thread is a perfect example of why I now play M&M.

This post is a perfect example of why I think you should stay on the M&M boards.

[Haerandir]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

OK, since we're taking the Lawyering approach to its finest...

 

The fact that Scorpia's darts are written up in a maner which deviates from the normal manner of writing up such constructs can be taken to indicate that they differ in some fashion from the normal construct. This could readily be taken to mean that they can penetrate some forms of resistant defenses (other than those which are "armor").

 

Given that Steve Long reviews each and every book, there must be a reason that Scorpia's power writeup deviates from the norm (this is similar to the "intention of the legislature" issue commonly argued before the Courts). The length of time CKC has been out, with this item not errata'd (many others are) further supports the assertion that her power deviates from the standard for such constructs intentionally, and is thus intended to function differently.

 

 

(snip: stuff that I actually agree with, which should have been able to go without saying)

 

Alternatively we could assume that, since "unarmored" is not defined as a rules term with special significance within the Hero System, and further more is included in the context of a shorthand description of a Conditional Power Limitation, that Long expected (and continues to expect) that it should be understood as denoting nothing more than its ordinary English meaning, i.e. "uncovered/unprotected/defenseless". At that point, it's up to the GM of a given game to adjudicate exactly what constitutes covering, protection and defense.

 

A 30 rPD Force Field sounds like exactly the sort of thing that would keep you safe from a poison dart, to me, and I submit that any reasonable person who is familiar with the Hero System rules and the English language would agree. No doubt Steve Long hasn't weighed in to 'clarify' this issue because he is not aware, or simply is unable to believe, that there are people out there who would seriously argue that a Force Field that protects you from bullets, knives and falling rocks won't protect you from a poison dart, simply because they can't tell the difference between a 'defined game mechanic' and a 'description of a special effect'.

 

This is both the 'rules-lawyering' interpretation and the 'common sense' interpretation. The rules specifically state that the right thing to do in this case is to use your judgement (i.e. 'Reasoning from Effect'), and I don't think anyone disagrees that ruling the Force Field capable of stopping a poison dart is the 'logical' thing to do. I suppose that, if someone really is confused on this point, they could submit a rules question on the Hero System Discussion forum. Steve might even answer it. Personally, I don't plan to waste his time with something this asinine.

 

You know what the funny thing about this is? If the word 'unarmored' appeared in the text as 'un-Armored', I would agree that the intent was that only the Armor power would suffice. This is the level to which this argument has descended. We're trying to read the mind of a man to whom we have easy access by parsing capitalization and hyphenation within a single word.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Steve Long is mighty but the idea that nothing slips by him' date=' I don't accept; especially after reading some FAQs and his rules responses. Some of that stuff just makes my head hurt at the idea of actually implementing.[/quote']

 

Agreed - although I'll give Steve more credit for knowing what he's implementing than most legislatures enacting tax legislation (which is where my "intention of... legal argument arises from).

[Haerandir]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Agreed - although I'll give Steve more credit for knowing what he's implementing than most legislatures enacting tax legislation (which is where my "intention of... legal argument arises from).

 

Well, you'll definitely get no argument from me there. Please be assured, my prior post wasn't meant as an attack on you, I realize you were just goofing around with a silly quasi-legal argument. I just happen to think the starting premise of that line of argument is invalid. Fruit of the poison tree, etc.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

This thread is a perfect example of why I now play M&M.

Since I don't have M&M, I have to ask: how would this argument not be happening in that system? I don't believe this argument is system specific, really. Of course, I could be wrong.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Well' date=' you'll definitely get no argument from me there. Please be assured, my prior post wasn't meant as an attack on you, I realize you were just goofing around with a silly quasi-legal argument. I just happen to think the starting premise of that line of argument is invalid. Fruit of the poison tree, etc.[/quote']

 

Certainly no offense taken. This thread has taken a very rules-lawyerish turn, so may as well move it to its extreme and get it over with.

 

As to Eurostar's expansion drive, there have been a number of good ideas on this thread already. I like the underwater character myself - maybe the Atlantean who was in the VOICE scenario might be a good pick for that niche.

[OddHat]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Eurostar take themselves too seriously. They need a goofy theme villain.

 

Maybe a boomerang fish thrower, or a girl with a magic bra.

[Haerandir]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Eurostar takes themselves too seriously. They need a goofy theme villain.

 

Maybe a boomerang fish thrower, or a girl with a magic bra.

 

Please, being a member of Eurostar, she'd be French, and insist on being referred to as the "Mademoiselle with the Magic Brasierre".

[Kirby]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

...or a girl with a magic bra.

I thought all bras were magical.

 

If she's German, it would be "Ovadasholdaboldaholda."

 

(Why are tv' called "boob tubes" instead of bras?)

[Starlord]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Gravitar vs. The Sentinels? Now to do this we need The Sentinels official stats, so Darren or Steve...you will need to provide those immediately so we can proceed with the debate.

 

Hmmm. How bout Gravitar vs. the MC8? I know they're 350 ptrs, but there are 8 of them.

 

What about Crowns of Krim vs. Menton?

[Metaphysician]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Gravitar vs. The Sentinels? Now to do this we need The Sentinels official stats, so Darren or Steve...you will need to provide those immediately so we can proceed with the debate.

 

Hmmm. How bout Gravitar vs. the MC8? I know they're 350 ptrs, but there are 8 of them.

 

What about Crowns of Krim vs. Menton?

 

Vs the MC8, from what I remember of their stats, they are creamed. Gravitar is basically custom designed to fight whole hoards of 350ers. Its all about the 50 STR AoE TK. I think they have one mentalist who could try and hurt her, but IIRC, Psiphon isn't as potent as Mentalla.

 

Crowns vs Menton?? Oi, this is probably a matter of who hits who with what first. He's sure gonna get his moneys worth out of those extra mental SPD points. . .

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Gravitar's DEX is 25.

 

Menton's EGO is, IIRC, notably higher than that.

 

He also has SPD 9 with mental powers.

 

So, Menton will get an action before Gravitar does. Given Gravitar's lack of Mental Defenses and Menton's power, this means Gravitar is, as they say, curbstomped.

 

Oh, and its spelled "hordes", dammit.

[Dominique]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

IMHO, if it came down to Gravitar or Menton, Menton would spank that @$$ hands down. I don't have my copy of CKC in front of me at the moment, but I do beleive Gravitar is sorely lacking in mental defenses. Menton would just french fry her brain.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Oh, most definitely. Mentalla can slap Gravitar down... if she can get a shot off. The only thing that keeps her losing is that Gravitar can get initiative on her, and Mentalla can't take Gravitar's first punch and still remain able to return fire.

 

Menton, OTOH, is not only enormously more powerful than his little sister, he's also notably *faster*. Which means he gets first shot off on Gravitar any time, and his first shot will telepathically blow her straight off the map.

[Kirby]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Menton would wipe the field with Gravatar.

Crowns vs Menton?? Oi' date=' this is probably a matter of who hits who with what first. He's sure gonna get his moneys worth out of those extra mental SPD points. . .[/quote']

With a 30 EGO, Menton definitely goes first. With a 20 ECV and 16d6 Mind Control, I'm thinking Dark Seraph (I don't see Mental Defense listed) gets dominated first (avg roll will beat his EGO by 36) and goes after someone. It could be a tough fight for Menton. His one glaring weakness is not having an AoE attack, though. He does have a 6d6 mental entangle, an attack his sister sorely lacks. And his 9 SPD is just viscious.

[Chuckg]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Errr, if you dominate Dark Seraph, doesn't that mean you've got all the Crowns? They *have* to obey his orders, even if they make no sense, right?

[Twilight]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Menton would wipe the field with Gravatar.

 

With a 30 EGO, Menton definitely goes first. With a 20 ECV and 16d6 Mind Control, I'm thinking Dark Seraph (I don't see Mental Defense listed) gets dominated first (avg roll will beat his EGO by 36) and goes after someone. It could be a tough fight for Menton. His one glaring weakness is not having an AoE attack, though. He does have a 6d6 mental entangle, an attack his sister sorely lacks. And his 9 SPD is just viscious.

 

But who goes first is determined by speed, not ego.

[Kirby]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

Errr' date=' if you dominate Dark Seraph, doesn't that mean you've got all the Crowns? They *have* to obey his orders, even if they make no sense, right?[/quote']

Not as far as I can tell. The write-up says that they all owe allegiance to the Iron Crown, which Dark Seraph wears. It seems he can tell if someone is being treacherous as well as "Dark Seraph rules Crowns with an iron fist; those who disupte or question his commands suffer harsh punishments."

 

It does say that the Dragon Crown (which Takofanes has) has control over the six crowns, but speculates to how much.

[Kirby]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

But who goes first is determined by speed' date=' not ego.[/quote']

Um, no, who goes first is determined by DEX/EGO. After post-segment 12, Speed Determines how often one goes, with shared phases going to the higher DEX/EGO.

 

Menton 30 EGO

Dark S. 23 DEX

 

Menton goes first on phases they share

Menton 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12

Dark S. 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12

 

So Menton goes before Dark Seraph on each of DS's phases, plus, Menton goes more often than Dark Seraph. (Menton even has a DEX of 24!)

[Haerandir]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

IMHO' date=' if it came down to Gravitar or Menton, Menton would spank that @$$ hands down. I don't have my copy of CKC in front of me at the moment, but I do beleive Gravitar is sorely lacking in mental defenses. Menton would just french fry her brain.[/quote']

 

Gravitar's only defense against mental attacks is her 23 EGO. This is actually a meaningful defense against mentalists whose own EGO is in the same range, and who have effect dice in the 10-14 range. Basically because her ECV is high enough that the can't neccessarily auto-hit and they need good to very good rolls to rock her world with the high-effect MC and MI effects. Doesn't help her nearly as much against Ego Attack or BoECV Entangles, though. And Menton has dice to burn. Plus the higher initiative and SPD, of course. And TK powers roughly equivalent to hers.

 

Edit: All of which means I concur: Menton owns Gravitar.

[OddHat]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

IMHO' date=' if it came down to Gravitar or Menton, Menton would spank that @$$ hands down.[/quote']

 

Thus, a Champions Fan Fic is born.

[Gary]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

If the GM was soulless, he could have Menton use his 20 ECV to Rapid Fire his Ego Blast and take out virtually every Crown at the same time.

[Patriot]

Re: Opinion: EuroStar

 

If the GM was soulless' date=' he could have Menton use his 20 ECV to Rapid Fire his Ego Blast and take out virtually every Crown at the same time.[/quote']

 

 

 

Why if the Gm Was soulless? If combat ensued, why wouldnt Menton use everything in his ability to own the situation?