Worst comic book superfight ever

[gewing]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I don't think so. Brains don't go mush in super hard skulls in mainstream comics.

 

 

No, I meant good point that Wolverine should have been incapable of much after a pounding by spidey, and certainly not the trick he pulled.

[gewing]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Since this is not directly on topic, hope I will be forgiven for sidesteping my vow of silence. I really did mean to respond to this earlier, but when I went back I couldn't find it.

 

"HERO combat and do you assume that the only blows delivered are those reflected by to-hit and damage rolls?"

 

Yes.

 

The concept of END and charges means we do need to keep tract of the attacks.

 

Imagine the alternative. You have a six-gun, simply as the prototypical focus with charges. You fire in your first phase, angain in your second. In your third phase the hammer clicks on an empty chamber.

 

"What happened to my other four bullets?"

 

"They were implied to have been fired, off panel, between phases."

 

 

I have always tended to think that one roll = one hit, but I keep getting pointed out that things like "offensive strike" could be flurries that have the same effect.

[gewing]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Daredevil knocking out Firelord would be worse because... well...

 

Daredevil is explicitly _not_ superhumanly strong. Spiderman _is_.

 

Spiderman can be argued to have a Hulk-like superstrength that increases dramatically an uncontrollably in some circumstances.

 

It seems fairly reasonable, actually... hey, I wonder if that was a gamma irradiated Spider...?

 

 

exactly Daredevil is basically "normal" strength.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wolverine *has* been KO'ed by concussive force before -- heck, the man-portable artillery that Genoshan Magistrates used to pack did the job once, at least when the mook in question fired it off at maximum power and point-blank range into Logan's face.

 

People in the Ben Grimm strength range (such as, oh, Ben Grimm) have easily KO'ed Wolvie with a simple hammer blow to the top of his skull. Ben wasn't straining overmuch either, just a simple *BOP*, and he's down.

 

So having Spidey work the speed bag on Logan's forehead? No way Logan should have just shaken that off. Granted, Spidey ain't the ever-lovin' blue-eyed Thing, but Logan should at least have been seeing *some* stars, not factory fresh and able not just to continue fighting, but execute subtle feints that somehow magically evade the #!%!@%@# Spider-Sense even.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I have always tended to think that one roll = one hit' date=' but I keep getting pointed out that things like "offensive strike" could be flurries that have the same effect.[/quote']

I'm going to quote you in the other thread...

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As I understood it' date=' if the sword were enchanted so that it were striking "supernaturally" (i.e., not just the force of the blade but bypassing "mere physical defenses"), B, and to be clearer, in B, BOTH Hulk and Superman would be hurting because neither has any special protection to magic. [/quote']

In which case Busiek's lengthy argument about Thor's hammer not being a "magical attack" is moot, right? It would affect the Hulk and Superman the same way, regardless of what enchantments it has. You see why I feel like he's sending mixed signals.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

In which case Busiek's lengthy argument about Thor's hammer not being a "magical attack" is moot' date=' right? It would affect the Hulk and Superman the same way, regardless of what enchantments it has. You see why I feel like he's sending mixed signals.[/quote']

Remember the starting context, though - the initial discussion he was responding to is the feeling some had that Thor's Mjolnir was magical and because it was magical, when it struck Superman, he would just go down. This doesn't work, though, if you see Mjolnir as, when physically striking, "just" a blunt instrument. In that scenario, Superman can withstand it pretty darn well (these days - and in the old days he could ignore it completely). However, if you take the "Superman is vulneralbe to anything magical" approach, Mjolnir is "magical" and in that scenario Superman folds (Silver Age or Iron Age Superman).

 

Make some sense?

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Remember the starting context, though - the initial discussion he was responding to is the feeling some had that Thor's Mjolnir was magical and because it was magical, when it struck Superman, he would just go down. This doesn't work, though, if you see Mjolnir as, when physically striking, "just" a blunt instrument. In that scenario, Superman can withstand it pretty darn well (these days - and in the old days he could ignore it completely). However, if you take the "Superman is vulneralbe to anything magical" approach, Mjolnir is "magical" and in that scenario Superman folds (Silver Age or Iron Age Superman).

 

Make some sense?

Only as two disparate statements. They were talking about whatever version of Superman Busiek wrote in that series. He explained that it's something like option ( in my post above. In which case, when he's asked the question "Is a blow from Thor's hammer a magical attack?" his answer should have been "It doesn't matter." But that wasn't his answer. He explained at length that a hit from Thor's hammer isn't magical. Why bother, if it doesn't matter?

 

By implying that it does matter, he implied something more like (A) than (. Unless I totally misread him.

[zornwil]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Only as two disparate statements. They were talking about whatever version of Superman Busiek wrote in that series. He explained that it's something like option ( in my post above. In which case, when he's asked the question "Is a blow from Thor's hammer a magical attack?" his answer should have been "It doesn't matter." But that wasn't his answer. He explained at length that a hit from Thor's hammer isn't magical. Why bother, if it doesn't matter?

 

By implying that it does matter, he implied something more like (A) than (. Unless I totally misread him.

I didn't read the prior part of the thread, but according to Snake Ghandi, and I think this was the case, he was entering in on the debate to debunk the point, "If Superman is hit with Thor's hammer, he must go down hard because he's vulnerable to magic and Thor's hammer is a magical attack." So it was relevant for him to say "Thor's hammer is not a magical attack."

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

So it was relevant for him to say "Thor's hammer is not a magical attack."

 

"... when used as a blunt object without being specifically charged with a mystic blast first.", yes.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wolverine *has* been KO'ed by concussive force before -- heck' date=' the man-portable artillery that Genoshan Magistrates used to pack did the job once, at least when the mook in question fired it off at maximum power and point-blank range into Logan's face.[/quote'] In fact, he's been blasted out consistently by attacks that, otherwise, he's withstood fine... when I wrote up his powers for a MU*, I included a variability in his defences/healing factor dependent on how prepared for an attack he is/how much adrenaline is in his system/how much of a surprise he takes/etc. To rationalise a) him going comatose from half a clip from an AK, and him taking hundreds of rounds from Triads and still fighting.

 

People in the Ben Grimm strength range (such as, oh, Ben Grimm) have easily KO'ed Wolvie with a simple hammer blow to the top of his skull. Ben wasn't straining overmuch either, just a simple *BOP*, and he's down.

I can definitely see that. I can also see him taking a hit from Grimm in the middle of a fight, even a pretty good one, and coming back for more. If the adrenaline's flowing, there isn't much that can stop him.

 

Note, not resisting it just through toughness, but also by taking the blow well to minimise damage to himself - like he did when he got hit by the Hulk in his first appearance, turning a killing strike into a glancing blow, that still dazed him. In a fight with Grimm, I'm imagining Grimm unloading on him, Wolvy turning into the blow and being knocked through a wall. Get back to feet, shake off the daze, come back for more. Worse for wear, definitely, but that'll fix itself soon enough, as long as he can keep from being hit again too often.

 

But get him 'out of combat' for a moment (Show him a picture of a naked Jean, for instance), let the adrenaline fade off, then bop him on the back of the head? He might just be knocked out. Hit him before combat begins, get him from surprise, any of that, he might just be knocked out. Hit him OVER AND OVER AND OVER again, no. He's not just gonna suck that down. His healing factor will let him recover, but it takes TIME.

 

So having Spidey work the speed bag on Logan's forehead? No way Logan should have just shaken that off. Granted, Spidey ain't the ever-lovin' blue-eyed Thing, but Logan should at least have been seeing *some* stars, not factory fresh and able not just to continue fighting, but execute subtle feints that somehow magically evade the #!%!@%@# Spider-Sense even.

Absolutely. Logan's able to take a heck of a lot. He's a wolverine - he's small, but DAMN tough and vicious. While his powers have changed a lot since his first appearance, that concept hasn't. A super-strength hit to the head is something he'll notice. A series of super-fast, super-strong hits? Well, I can see him being conscious after that, but that's about all.

 

And I'm a big-time Wolverine fan.

[austenandrews]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I didn't read the prior part of the thread' date=' but according to Snake Ghandi, and I think this was the case, he was entering in on the debate to debunk the point, "If Superman is hit with Thor's hammer, he must go down hard because he's vulnerable to magic and Thor's hammer is a magical attack." So it was relevant for him to say "Thor's hammer is not a magical attack."[/quote']

I reread the thread. He started out explaining ( and then switched to discussing the hammer, during which he said Thor could unleash magic energies that would "hurt Supes pretty badly." I may be reading too much into that comment, but he said it explicitly in contrast to Thor pounding away with ordinary (non-magical) hammer strikes.

 

Not that it really matters to me, since I don't read comics anymore (and never read Supes), but as a Champs gamer I'm naggingly unclear on what Superman's "invulnerability" actually is, or if it means anything at all (currently) beyond just being an uber-brick.

 

And I still think Busiek is being a munchkin about the whole "specific enchantment effect" thing. But I won't derail any further. That would be such a travesty in this thread.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Well, actually, the Ben Grimm bop on the head was while Wolverine was raving berserk... however, Wolvie was enraged at the person in front of him (Reed Richards), and had absolutely no idea who'd just walked up behind him, so Ben got a free blindside.

 

(FANTASTIC FOUR VS. X-MEN #2, if you're curious)

 

The Magistrate incident, however, was Wolvie (and Rogue, who was alongside him) walking into it cold -- don't remember the issue #, it was UNCANNY X-MEN, first issue of the very first Genosha arc.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

No. Agent X was annoyed that you came into a thread very late and asked questions that had been covered over and over and made all sorts of broad claims without working through the thread.

Can you really blame 'em though? I mean at 20 posts per page this thread is exceeding 100 pages. I stopped around page 26 because, well, real life gave me better things to do. Having to read 75 pages when most of it is people not listening to each other is a bit tedious.

[Inu]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Well' date=' actually, the Ben Grimm bop on the head was while Wolverine was raving berserk... however, Wolvie was enraged at the person in front of him (Reed Richards), and had absolutely no idea who'd just walked up behind him, so Ben got a free blindside.[/quote']Yep. Wolvy's senses are good, but like anyone, even he doesn't notice things when his attention is elsewhere. I'll definitely buy that one. He's not prepared for it, he can't roll with it, he can't brace, he just goes down. Well within what I accept as his norms.

 

(I felt robbed when I read that issue, but I was a raving fanboy at the time who would have felt robbed if Wolverine hadn't been able to kill Galactus. I grew out of that phase.)

 

The Magistrate incident, however, was Wolvie (and Rogue, who was alongside him) walking into it cold -- don't remember the issue #, it was UNCANNY X-MEN, first issue of the very first Genosha arc.

Yup, that one too. He's been fairly consistently knocked about by attacks from surprise... and fairly consistently able to take head-on strikes if he's able to 'roll with the punch'. (In Hero, I'd say he'd be a prime contender for combat luck, with activation roll, perhaps? Or maybe Breakfall or some other skill check.)

 

None of which he got to use with Spider-Man. Spidey got robbed.

[nexus]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Coming into this a bit late, but I'd nominate allot of the fights in The Authority, not for being badly scripted but just for being, for the most, part boring. There is very little sense of tension or that the character are actually in any sort of danger. They seem to be more just excersises to show off how invincible the character compared to their opponents who are apparently made of cardboard and glass. There are exception, but that's the tone of a number of battles in the comic. They leave me with a sense of "Why did they waste panels on this?"; they could have just forwards to the gore spattered and gotten on with the story.

[Agent X]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Can you really blame 'em though? I mean at 20 posts per page this thread is exceeding 100 pages. I stopped around page 26 because' date=' well, real life gave me better things to do. Having to read 75 pages when most of it is people not listening to each other is a bit tedious.[/quote'] Yeah, I can. [This is not really directed at you] And I'm getting tired of folks coming in here pretending to be more reasonable by making claims such that "most" people are not listening to each other. I know it's easier to get on here and pretend to be above it all and lump all the earnest debaters into the same camp of behavior but it's simply not the case. The rampant distortion has been very one-sided.

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wow, I don't really have a problem with the notion that Supes can withstand a blow from Mjolnir much as the Hulk or Gladiator can.

 

But Busiek is on drugs when he talks about the "properties" of Mjolnir.

 

As an additional 'wow', this is somewhat disappointing as he happens to be one of my favorite writers...unfortunately it seems clear he's never once read a Thor comic.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

And I'm getting tired of folks coming in here pretending to be more reasonable by making claims such that "most" people are not listening to each other.

 

Well, gradually placing the opposition on one's ignore list does tend to result in their points being overlooked. However, I don't think **most** people are using their ignore list on a portion of those discussing the issue.

 

Although I am prepared to believe my request for a summary of Spidey's success againstv the Rhino (or vice versa) are being ignored. The purpose of such a summary is to compare it against the Hulk/Rhino box scores, which have been claimed (because the Hulk always wins, most times after taking a few good shots himself) to indicate Rhino isn't in the same league as the Hulk.

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Can you really blame 'em though? I mean at 20 posts per page this thread is exceeding 100 pages. I stopped around page 26 because' date=' well, real life gave me better things to do. Having to read 75 pages when most of it is people not listening to each other is a bit tedious.[/quote']

 

Yes, I can blame them. You wanna come in late on a huge thread, then take the time to read it. Besides, if the thread is as bad as your last statement snootily implies, why are you or some newcomers commenting on and/or reading it in the first place?

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

As an additional 'wow'' date=' this is somewhat disappointing as he happens to be one of my favorite writers...unfortunately it seems clear he's never once read a Thor comic. [/quote']

 

Which is an odd thing to say, given that he's written lots of comics with Thor in them. His AVENGERS run for certain, and didn't he have a THOR run too?

 

Now, granted, some of the decisions Busiek has made with Thor have made my eyes roll (bullets?!?), but the idea of 'Since Thor didn't know about Superman's magic weakness the first time, he didn't charge up Mjolnir a la mystic blast to bypass it but instead merely used it in its normal default mode of "big blunt object"' doesn't tick me off at all.

 

After all, Superman does not wear a big neon sign saying "VULNERABLE TO MAGIC".

 

And Busiek specifically has Thor saying, in the wrap-up of JLA/AVENGERS, 'I've gotten a better look at Superman since our first brawl, I know exactly how to take that schmo apart now if we ever go at it again.'

[Starlord]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Which is an odd thing to say, given that he's written lots of comics with Thor in them. His AVENGERS run for certain, and didn't he have a THOR run too?

 

Now, granted, some of the decisions Busiek has made with Thor have made my eyes roll (bullets?!?), but the idea of 'Since Thor didn't know about Superman's magic weakness the first time, he didn't charge up Mjolnir a la mystic blast to bypass it but instead merely used it in its normal default mode of "big blunt object"' doesn't tick me off at all.

 

- Yes, his Avengers run is one of my favs.

 

- I have a problem with the idea because it seems like a silly contrivance to give Superman a win. Of course, it also seems obvious to me Mjolnir always hits with extra magical damage, too.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

I have a problem with the idea because it seems like a silly contrivance to give Superman a win. Of course' date=' it also seems obvious to me Mjolnir always hits with extra magical damage, too.[/quote']

 

Note that if we went with that approach, Superman would logically have died on the first hit, which means there's no way to write this story *at all*.

 

I can forgive a contrivance like this if a) there's an unavoidable necessity for it because nothing less can save the plot from *poofing* into total nonexistence in act one and the writer puts some actual work into making it sound intelligent.

 

Now if Busiek did it just to make Thor job 'cause he's a raving Superman fanboy, that would be different. But he didn't. He did it because otherwise there's no way to write an entertaining Thor/Superman fight *at all*(1), 'cause Superman going from "unhurt" to "strawberry jam" on the first blow is entertaining to neither Thor fans nor Superman fans.

 

Besides, now that Thor knows about Supes' weakness, the rematch will have him juggling Clark's head like a hacky-sack, so what's to complain?

 

 

 

 

 

 

(1) If somebody wants to bring in A Certain Other Discussion, let me remind them that we suggested several ways that the Spidey/Firelord fight could still be drawn-out, entertaining, and yet *not* end with Spidey going SSJ3 and punking Firelord like a mook. So don't.

[Catacomb]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Wolverine *has* been KO'ed by concussive force before -- heck, the man-portable artillery that Genoshan Magistrates used to pack did the job once, at least when the mook in question fired it off at maximum power and point-blank range into Logan's face.

 

People in the Ben Grimm strength range (such as, oh, Ben Grimm) have easily KO'ed Wolvie with a simple hammer blow to the top of his skull. Ben wasn't straining overmuch either, just a simple *BOP*, and he's down.

 

So having Spidey work the speed bag on Logan's forehead? No way Logan should have just shaken that off. Granted, Spidey ain't the ever-lovin' blue-eyed Thing, but Logan should at least have been seeing *some* stars, not factory fresh and able not just to continue fighting, but execute subtle feints that somehow magically evade the #!%!@%@# Spider-Sense even.

 

It depends on Wolverine's state of mind. There have been times when he's gone down somewhat easy and then there are times when he's taken a shot from Apocolypse and continued on. It all has to do with how pissed off he is, kind of like how The Hulk gets stronger Wolverine literally gets tougher. My GM had a way to implement the power too that was pretty cool, but its not a new thing. Wolvie has always been like that.

[Chuckg]

Re: Worst comic book superfight ever

 

Note, one of the examples where Wolvie 'went down easy' was while he was in a full-on raving berserker psycho fit.(*) (FF vs. X-Men #2)

 

So it doesn't *always* work like that. Sometimes, the instances in question are merely the Power Fanboy channelling through the writer to give Wolvie a win when, reasonably speaking, there's no way he should have stayed upright. (Such as, oh, "Wolverine vs. Spider-Man")

 

 

 

 

 

(*) Did you ever wonder /why/ the Thing was KO'ing Wolvie? Hint: had something to do with Logan trying to carve Reed Richards into rubber bands. Logan's not usually up for murdering FF members when he's *calm*, and he was *literally* foaming at the mouth during this sequence.