Multipower and Experience

[Blue]

In my old campaign I didn't allow multipowers, just to keep life simple. For this campaign I'm willing to give them a try, but I can't get past one thing: That with an MP your powers would mathematically raise at a higher rate, far outpacing someone without an MP.

 

By my calculations, I can make sure at the campaign start that everyone is within reason on their level of power, but once they start getting experience, it seems like people with an MP should be able to climb up the power scale far faster.

 

Example: A guy with 3 Attacks at 60 Active Points each would have to pay 15 Exp. to get each of them up by 5pts. - BUT - A guy with 3 Attacks in a Multipower could raise the pool by 5pts and each slot by 5 active which is 1pt slot cost, and it only cost him 8pts to raise those three powers.

 

Are you folks experiencing a problem with MP-based characters outgunning the rest of the player characters over time? If so, have you developed a way to combat it?

[Marcus]

Consider that the guy with the powers bought full cost can combine attack and zorch some poor SOB with all three of them.

 

The Multipower cant.

 

Also, adjustment powers abound in my games, so Frameworks really DO hurt some times.

[TheEmerged]

Well, no -- but that's because over 95% of characters (PC and NPC alike) have multipowers

[DoctorItron]

Do you place active point, damage class, or other power level limits on characters? If yes, then you can set different limits for multipower and non-multipower powers.

 

For example, let's say you've determined that the "standard" energy blast in your game is 12d6. If EB is bought in a multipower, then don't allow a player to exceed 12d6. If a player buys the EB outside a multipower, then let it go higher, perhaps to 14d6.

 

As you award experience and adjust these limits over time, you'll see that the characters with multipowers become very versatile, being able to do a little bit of everything. The characters without multipowers, on the other hand, remain narrowly focused but are often "the best at what they do".

[Blue]

I actually have a tentative considerations in my campaign where the campaign is at 80 Active Pt Max on attacks but if it's in a Multipower it can only be 75% of the multipower pool Pools are fixed at 80ts to start. (Thus they can only have attacks at 60 Active points or less).

 

And that's great for controlling the campaign at it's start.

 

My worry is that even with this rule in place, through the far cheaper cost of raising a power in MP, those MP-based characters will soon outpace everyone else.

[Killer Shrike]

I think you are overestimating the efficiency. Consider that if all the slots in the MPP are Ultras and thier AP = the Pool size, all of the powers also effectively have Lockout. Go back to the non-MPP character and recalc thier powers with Lockout and youll see a difference.

 

IME, characters with MPP are more likely to add more slots than to up thier MPP. Thats the true danger of MPPs; characters can suddenly sprout entirely new abilities for a handfull of points.

 

Still, Ive always allowed Frameworks and never had any undue concerns or problems with them. In general thier cons have always compensated for thier pros in the bigger picture. ECs could become a problem if not eyeballed in earlier editions, but the new vulnerability to adjustments has fixed that IMO.

 

You have to realize that the assumption really is that in supers campaigns most characters will have Frameworks, not the other way around.

 

As a general rule before changing anything I try out the default rules until Im sure I understand all permutations of it and only then introduce changes. Its much better than just arbitrarily changing things before I even have a handle on what currently exists.

[Trebuchet]

In my experience as a GM Frameworks add flexibility, not necessarily more power. As long as you don't allow indiscriminate ramping up of the Pool it shouldn't unbalance your game.

 

And I suggest you keep tight control of the character concept before you permit new slots in an MPP. LavaMan shouldn't be able to automatically buy Teleportation in his MPP just because he has 3 points available. Take the XP purchases on a case-by-case basis, don't permit the players to buy anything without GM approval.

 

In my campaign all expenditures of XP must be approved by one or more of the GMs; even the GMs must have approval by another GM. We sit down and discuss the proposed power, it's rationale, special effect, and game balance. If it fits the character concept, doesn't step on another character's "schtick" and is not unbalancing, then it's generally approved. If not, it gets vetoed. We seldom have to actually veto anything, because our players all have a good handle on their character concepts and don't often propose new abilities that don't fit the concept. But it has happened.

[Tom McCarthy]

I was more worried about players having the option of inexpensively adding ultra slots to their multipowers than of the ease with which the power levels rose. In the end , GM approval kept things in line.

 

One option is to keep the multipower as a whole within the active point limits of the campaign. If the limit is 70 active points, then 14D6 is fine outside a multipower, but look at this multipower:

 

50 Multipower, 50 active point powers

5u 10D6 EB

5u 5D6 DEF 5 Entangle

5u 3D6+1 RKA

5u Forcewall 10 rPD, 10 rED

 

That's 70 active points of multipower, and significantly lower levels of effect for the same cost. And if the limits jump to 80, there's only room to go to 55 active point powers.

[DigitalGolem]

Originally posted by Blue

My worry is that even with this rule in place, through the far cheaper cost of raising a power in MP, those MP-based characters will soon outpace everyone else.

 

I wouldn't worry about that, in terms of active point maximums. Once a MP slot is "maxed out", it actually costs more to raise its active points; the character has to buy up both the MP Pool and the Slot(s). It ends up being 10 to 20% more than a similar power outside the MP.

 

For slots that aren't maxed out, yes, raising the active points doesn't cost much. But unless the pool is also increased, there's still a hard ceiling on the active points the character can use. Raising a force field from 20 points to 30 is easy. But when using those extra points, a character has to trim back on 10 points worth of other active powers. Or buy up the Pool, which brings us back to my first point.

 

As others have pointed out, sometimes there's a problem with buying new slots on the cheap. IMHO, the solution is to have well-defined special effects for the MP at the start of the campaign, and make *&^%$#@! sure that all new slots fit the effects.

 

[sarcasm]Look guys, my sniper rifle can heal people now![/sarcasm]

 

I don't think so....

 

thanx heaps,

 

DGv3.0

[BlackSword]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

Bringing a thread outa long hibernation because I have a quesiton MPPs as well. I have noticed the tendency of some players to take a MPP and then fill it with every power in the book and use some round about justification for it.

 

Also with good use of limitations a PC can bring the cost down to only a few points(one or two XP) to add a lot of active points to a character.

 

I like this idea, limit the AP of the MPP and the AP cost of the ultraslots as the campaign limit. While a MPP is very flexible, it comes at the cost of how much power can be slung around. (ie to get more slots you need to decrease the active points of the MPP or wait and see if the campaign AP limits change).

 

Only problem is that the campaign has started with rotating GMs so I didn't get the chance (nor really have the experience) to look over any charecters for approval. However, this suggestion will be kept in the back of my mind for future games.

I was more worried about players having the option of inexpensively adding ultra slots to their multipowers than of the ease with which the power levels rose. In the end , GM approval kept things in line.

 

One option is to keep the multipower as a whole within the active point limits of the campaign. If the limit is 70 active points, then 14D6 is fine outside a multipower, but look at this multipower:

 

50 Multipower, 50 active point powers

5u 10D6 EB

5u 5D6 DEF 5 Entangle

5u 3D6+1 RKA

5u Forcewall 10 rPD, 10 rED

 

That's 70 active points of multipower, and significantly lower levels of effect for the same cost. And if the limits jump to 80, there's only room to go to 55 active point powers.

[tesuji]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

OK, if you are using "points spent" as a comparison between a three attack multipower and three individual attacks (15 pts to raise the individuals vs 5 to raise the MP) and seeing that as a problem, how did you allow the MP in the first place.

 

Three individual 60 pters is 180.

three 60 pts in a multipower is 75.

 

thats a difference of 105 pts or roughly ten times the difference between your 5 to 15 concern!!!

 

******

 

Having three 60 pt attack powers that you can only use one at a time is not THREE TIMES as effective as having one. Thats why the multipower exists. That will remain true at 60 pt powers, at 75 pt powers, at 100 pt powers and even at 50 pt powers.

 

Its not a "problem" that will get worse with XP.

 

*****

 

In 5e, the big adavantage the three individual powers have is their ability to be used in multipower attacks. They can be used together. BAm, take three hits for one.

[Sean]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

And I suggest you keep tight control of the character concept before you permit new slots in an MPP. LavaMan shouldn't be able to automatically buy Teleportation in his MPP just because he has 3 points available. Take the XP purchases on a case-by-case basis' date=' don't permit the players to buy anything without GM approval.[/quote']

What he said. Elemental Controls and Multipowers are available to help out characters implementing a consistant concept of their powers. The improved efficiency is their reward for staying true to that. Thus it's up the GM(s) to keep an eye on what gets approved.

 

Somehow it's always seemed to me people get much more up in arms and picky about Elemental Controls than Multipowers.

[Supreme]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

In my old campaign I didn't allow multipowers, just to keep life simple. For this campaign I'm willing to give them a try, but I can't get past one thing: That with an MP your powers would mathematically raise at a higher rate, far outpacing someone without an MP.

 

By my calculations, I can make sure at the campaign start that everyone is within reason on their level of power, but once they start getting experience, it seems like people with an MP should be able to climb up the power scale far faster.

 

Example: A guy with 3 Attacks at 60 Active Points each would have to pay 15 Exp. to get each of them up by 5pts. - BUT - A guy with 3 Attacks in a Multipower could raise the pool by 5pts and each slot by 5 active which is 1pt slot cost, and it only cost him 8pts to raise those three powers.

 

Are you folks experiencing a problem with MP-based characters outgunning the rest of the player characters over time? If so, have you developed a way to combat it?

Thing is, all frameworks allow players to increase their effectiveness in similar ways. That's really what they're for. The person with an EC with three attacks is in the same boat as the person with no framework, but paid a lot less for his powers to start. Generally, characters who derive their powers from frameworks are so much less point-efficient than bricks and MAs that I'm more concerned with making things easier on the person with no frameworks, than limiting the MPs. Also, the person with the MP doesn't have the option of stacking attacks, or otherwise using powers simultaneously, the way that the person without an MP does. If I have two energy blasts and no framework, I can declare that those attacks fire together. Ouch! A person with an MP can only do that if they split the base points between the attacks. There a 10D6 becomes two 5D6 attacks. Heck, Aunt May could handle that!

 

Personally, I always think of problems like that in this way: as the GM I can always come up with something more powerful, my only concern is are the players happy. If one or more of your players thinks that having an MP is unfair, then you need to appease them in some way (it's everyone's game after all). Either prohibit MPs or give non-MP characters some other kind of break. I've never seen it be a problem.

[Blue]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

I looked at the board this morning, sized up the threads, and thought, "There's an interesting subject!". Of course I'd completely forgotten that I made this thread about a year ago

 

Just goes to show you: Things live forever on the internet.

 

It turns out that so far it hasn't been a big issue. Why? Because the caps I put on starting multipowers kind of scared off all the people who wanted them, but for two. And those two players haven't been playing regularly enough to get enough experience to unbalance things.

 

So in an odd way, the perceived problem took care of itself.

 

But I'm thinking that if I ever start up a brand new game, I'll let this power framework wide open.

[DevoDog]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

 

IME, characters with MPP are more likely to add more slots than to up thier MPP. Thats the true danger of MPPs; characters can suddenly sprout entirely new abilities for a handfull of points.

 

 

I'm not sure whether it's stated in FrED, but in previous editions of Champions, it stated that characters can't buy any new powers without the express permission of the GM.

 

Of course, when I was playing Champions on a regular basis (way back in the early 80's), we didn't really use Multipowers. The reason for that was we didn't grasp the multiple-attack power multipowers (since there were very few examples of that in any of the Hero materials).

 

Of course, one way to counter that (allowing players to buy new powers without it causing major problems) would be to double the cost of any NEW power/skill that the character in his/her initial version.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

I fail to see why people see this as a major concern. If it's out of conception, it would have been a problem when he created the character and is a problem now, so it should not be alowed. If the power would not have been a problem when the character was created, and he now wants to spend xpto add it, why is it a problem now?

 

I find it odd that some people have no concern with the points saved by the multipower on powers purchased at initial character creation, but balk at this cost savings being availabke on powers purchased later.

[Stone]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

One option is to keep the multipower as a whole within the active point limits of the campaign. If the limit is 70 active points, then 14D6 is fine outside a multipower, but look at this multipower:

 

50 Multipower, 50 active point powers

5u 10D6 EB

5u 5D6 DEF 5 Entangle

5u 3D6+1 RKA

5u Forcewall 10 rPD, 10 rED

 

That's 70 active points of multipower, and significantly lower levels of effect for the same cost. And if the limits jump to 80, there's only room to go to 55 active point powers.

 

Sounds like you are almost treating it as a VPP. As far as PC's w/MP's outdistancing PC's w/out MP's, it all dependings on the PC's and character concept. If the concept is a uber-blaster, than most likey the xp's will go into attacks more than anything else. While this can make for a high DC attack, how are the PC's defenses, speed, & OCV? It is a trade off the PC will have to make. Not that I advocate designing a villian/NPC specifically for expoilting a PC weakness, but weakness is not a weakness if it is never encountered. In my games, it usually does not take long for PC's to spend xp to improve defense...buts that another topic all together.

[Arthur]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

....

Generally, characters who derive their powers from frameworks are so much less point-efficient than bricks and MAs that I'm more concerned with making things easier

....

 

Exactly. MPs and ECs are more or less necessary to balance the EPs vs. the Bricks and MAs. If I were about to play in a Champs game, and was handed a list of GM restrictions on MPs or ECs, I'd just stick to a Brick or MA or MA/Brick hybrid type (as much as "character type" really means anything in Champs).

 

I tend to prefer those types anyway. My favorite character is a STR 35 guy with Martial Arts, Regen, and moderately low resistant defenses.

[Mike W]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

Multipowers do not unbalance a game in any way by themselves. As long as the powers in them fit into the campaign guidelines, everything works out fine. As someone else pointed out, the drawback to having a MP is that even though you may have several powers in them, you still have a fixed amount of points active - and that total is far less than it is for the person who purchase all of the powers separately. Also, sometimes an MP is the best way to represent a given special effect - perhaps a mage that only knows certain spells and can only juggle so much magic at once. I've seen any number of conversions where Batman's utility belt is a MP - which makes perfect sense. Just be careful about what you let the characters put into the MP. Remember, you're the GM so you have final say. As long as they don't put in any abilities that would violate the other campaign rules, you shouldn't have any problems.

[KA.]

Re: Multipower and Experience

 

There is an interesting thread here:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11976

that has some ideas on how to handle this.

The guy who started the thread has some really good points to make.

You may want to check it out.

 

KA.