Eating your lunch...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Superhero game systems Champions has outlived:

V&V

Superworld

Marvel Super Heroes, 1st Edition

DC Heroes, 1st Edition

Marvel Super Heroes, 2nd Edition

DC Heroes, 2nd Edition

Aberrant

Marvel SAGA

DC Heroes for West End d6 system

Marvel game(the one using pente stones)

Underground

 

Godlike, Silver Age Sentinels, and a few others will probably also die off

 

I'm sure I've left off a few others

 

to be sure, a d20-based game is a challenge, because of the installed user-base, but I have my doubts as to its durability.

 

So?

 

What about all the rest of the game systems Hero has outlived? It's more than just superheroes, and while it wasn't originally, it has been for a very long time.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

So?

 

What about all the rest of the game systems Hero has outlived? It's more than just superheroes, and while it wasn't originally, it has been for a very long time.

well, the original post was about a rival supers rpg, so it seemed most appropriate to point out the plethora of competitors that Champions has outlasted.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

well' date=' the original post was about a rival supers rpg, so it seemed most appropriate to point out the plethora of competitors that Champions has outlasted.[/quote']

 

Oh yeah, I had forgotten what started this thread...

[zornwil]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

your kidding? right! shoe horning some Hero in to D20 has been tried before.

it dos not work. but hopefully some of them will see the error of there ways and find Hero!!!

You really have to look at the version of d20 here. I'm pretty interested in "True 20" which is qutie similar to M&M, and very much the way that HERO developed from Champions.

 

To me, this isn't a bad thing at all, as to M&M's gaining steam. It's attracting people who really aren't enjoying HERO or want a different play experience. Purely and simply, it's a different game. No one has explained what in HERO has changed from Champions days to make it less of a superhero game, or why they can't run Champions games if those were so great; in that light, you have to realize M&M really just is for those people more than Champions/HERO was. Ho hum. Different strokes and all.

 

As to M&M, I love its ingenius marriage of leveling with supers, much better than Tri-Stat's class-based d20 attempt. It wisely eschews classes but uses levels in a way that makes sense, creating a caliber of super power as it were, much similar to how we talk about "mutant class X" constructs. The fact it does d20 proud and is another supers game is not a problem. The players it takes from HERO are players who will go anyway. No cause for tears to be shed.

 

HERO's issue has more to do with marketing and unfortunate limitations on how flexible they can be with "glamor" products, not the system. The system of course has its limitations in appeal with its crunchiness, but of course that's also its strength.

[zornwil]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

THe system is nice, it weirds me out when I play it though. There's like 200 pages of rules so it's "Rules light" except to get superhuman strength you need a stat and at least one more power. so...streamlined it isn't so much.

 

the art is hit or miss, Storn has asome nice pics in there but some of the work is pedestrian and color dooesn't hide that.

 

I've read it a couple of time and played a couple of time, but it didn't steal me from my HERO.

Are you referring to 1e or 2e? I haven't read 2e (still, and I wonder if I will by the time I've had it a year! - but I have business trips coming up and those are a good time to read and do the boards), but my impression was the STR thing was streamlined now (?). Also, as to artwork, I think 1e was fantastic, 2e as I think you say its more sketchy, depending on who ddi it.

[Vondy]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

It's like the people that pretend that music they don't like isn't really music. People that say Rap, or Rock, or whatever they don't like isn't music. I hate most Country music, but I don't feel the need to pretend that it isn't music. It is music, just not the music I enjoy. I have no problems with other people enjoying it, as long as they don't expect me to enjoy it too.

 

Well, the definition of music includes melody, and a lot of rap doesn't have melody. As a result, a lot of rap is not music. Rather, such rap is poetry with some accompanying musical elements. This is not a comment on its quality, but a simply statement of fact.

[Vondy]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

It is not a bigoted attitude to have played d20 and have concluded that it is broken' date=' broken, broken. Because, objectively, it is. For alot of reasons. I'm sure the cat was saying "filth" as a sort of tongue in cheek way of meaning "Me no likey."[/quote']

 

Yes, but is it really necessary to use language that bears strong moral connotations as opposed to just saying its broken? To wit

 

D20 = Broken Like The Primordial Spheres

Thus

M&M = Broken Like The Primordial Spheres

[Vondy]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Personally, one of the biggest problems I've had with Hero is the focus on Supers. I know it was originally designed for that, but relying on any particuliar genre is dangerous in the current market, and Hero has the potential to eat from a lot of tables, not just one. And the look and feel of 5ER is definately supers slanted - not to mention being a product of legalese style overkill. Also, I've never been a big supers guru. I prefer other genres, even if they sometimes have superheroic elements. My other issue is, at the heroic level, hero isn't very granular. And that's a real sticking point for me. With the superheoic scale there's more granularity, but at the heroic level (especially gritty rather than cinematic heroic games) you don't have much wiggle room. And that bites. I still use hero. I can't find a system I like better truth be told, but its not perfect.

[zornwil]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

From the point of view of someone who has played many different games using many different systems' date=' d20 [i']is[/i] inferior.

 

And so is any other level-based game.

 

And so is any other game that uses a single die for determination.

 

And so is any other game that uses the "Armor Class" trick.

But the greatest innovations of d20, and particularly the one in question, have used these to solid effect, not as straightjackets of design. Recent work with the system has demonstrated it can be quite effective, and has earned the praise of non-d20 people in the industry of credible stance, and not for political reasons but with solid, clear respect. I think it's a good bit of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in badmouthing d20 based on a particular implementation, especially now that we can see excellent representations of what can be done. I'm not suggesting that people should go play d20, necessarily, I personally have little interest simply out of a matter of priority. But I think we can see and hear there are great games out there with great play experiences occurring in it, not merely "I killed stuff and got gold and therefore XPs." and "I know how to play the system with a paritcular class to dominate," as is so often used to misrrepresent the system (as in fact I used to do as well, frankly).

 

Personally I am looking forward to the True 20 release at least to read through it even if I don't get to play for a very long time.

[zornwil]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

This is just going to turn into one of those issues where I get frustrated by the "opinion meme" that has infested our society over recent decades -- sometimes, people are actually wrong, and there can actually be objective standards.

 

There's a certain thing that an PRG is supposed to be, and the three things I listed off run counter to that thing. Randomness takes away from role-playing and contributes to roll-playing.

 

RPGs are part "game". They are not purely "roleplaying", there's a reason the word, esssentially, is that specific compound word, "roleplaying game". The role of rolling and the role of playing mechanics is an important aspect of it. If one wishes to entirely remove the "roll playing," then one should probably play something besides an RPG. Given this, as a matter of "objective standards," the issue here is how much randomness, how much gaming. Further, the issue of randomness has little to do with roleplaying - you can absolutely and certainly roleplay fantastically with randomized results. In fact, one could argue easily that having a system which has predictable ways to "game" the system leads to that lack of roleplaying you fear of. THere isn't an objective standard that I can see that suggests that increased randomness stops a game from being a "roleplaying game."

 

Class-based systems take away from the ability to play a certain character/role.

 

Sure, and some RPGs are about playing a single role with certain types of characters. What makes that cease being an RPG, a "roleplaying game"? They may be RPGs you do not want to play...no problem! They may be RPGs that in fact nobody wants to play, but that doesn't mean they've ceased to be RPGs (though in fact on some objective standard of game design they've certainly failed on that level). Again, what objective standard is being applied here?

 

Armor Class and the like constrain the way in which different characters engage in combat and makes it all feel the same -- there's no functional difference between evading damage and blocking it.

 

Again, what is the objective standard being applied here? Why does there have to be a functional difference here? Further, a HEROite was recently discussing, one can easily and simply declare AC to be representative of whatever SFX, and be done with it, with mechanics completely intact and the play experience changed by no more than that relatively trivial degree.

 

Before you complain/exclaim that people are dismissing an argument as opinion, you need to establish the specific objective standard.

[zornwil]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

It's fun for me, regardless.

 

What drives me nuts is that there are so many people out there looking for what is quite frankly the wrong thing in their RPGing. They're looking for a power fantasy, or to best the people they're gaming with in some way, or to make the kewlest character. They're looking for an excuse to get together and hang out and get drunk and tell the same lameass jokes they've told 100 times before. They're roll-playing, not role-playing.

 

And because so many of the people I used to game with have moved away, I've been left with those dimwits as my only alternative to not gaming at all (or was until recently).

 

And what do they all want to play? d20. Or the new White Wolf system, which honestly ruined what was the only other decent system out there besides HERO. (Didn't too much mind the old d6 WEG system for Star Wars after tweaking it, but that's gone for the most part.)

A valid point is in there, but I think we have to bear in mind d20 is in the obvious, clear market dominant position, and as such they are going to attract the casual gamer, much as this year's Hollywood blockbuster, good or bad, will draw in the casual movie-goer whose true interest and knowledge in the movie media, despite their willingness to comment on it, is typically sub-par. It's not (necessarily) a fault of the system, it's the simple matter of being the only choice people who look no further than surface level see. If HERO were in the same position, you can absolutely bet you'd see the worst of behaviors and the worst usages of the system, for these same reasons.

 

In fact, as to "roleplaying", I think it's really only the character creation and the relatively limited reward system that HERO does to potentially drive the experience more towards that than the gaming side, and to pretend people aren't using HERO to wargame with limited roleplay as opposed to "pure" roleplay flies in the face of many reported experiences.

 

And it's very difficult to draw the line between the "roleplaying" and "game" parts of that word in a way which will derive any universal agreement among well-educated (in game systems I mean) and well-reasoned people as to a so-called correct balance of the two elements. We only know both elements are necessary, and that as soon as you eliminate one or the other, we no longer are RPGing.

[zornwil]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

You started with "in a particular context". If your context is ablility to apply a specific set of rules to multiple genre with iminimal change and reality, than certainly the first and third comparisons will mostly hold up (I think one could have a pretty deep discussion on mimicing reality, but for argument's sake I think it's reasonable enough to just call the crunchier HERO "more realistic" and leave it at that). Your middle point I'm not quite clear on the criteria at stake. There seems to be no shortage of stories of D&D campaigns lasting many years with wonderful continuity nor is it clear how allowing characters to become exponentially more powerful necessarily breaks continuity. As a matter of fact, HERO does nothing to necessarily stop this, either, and I personally have run all my major supers games with relatively rapid progression of characters, and they do in fact become exponentially more powerful rather quickly. In those campaigns, continuity has been in fact one of the major, extremely important points and has been generally quite successful, whether other facets have succeeded or failed.

 

HERO is a complete, logical system.

d20 is different with every genre, and introduces new/different rules in every book.

HERO system allows for a more realistic character progression.

d20 levelling destroys campaign continuity by allowing characters, in a few levels become exponentially more powerful.

HERO mimics reality better because you can build a more organic, real character.

d20 showhorns everyone into or more classes.

 

These are just a couple examples. HERO mimics reality better, and mimics fictional source material based on a fictional reality better as a result.

 

Just because some people irrationally prefer a less consistent, more random system DOES NOT mean that have rational, objective reasons for it. They might have an OPINION that the game is "more funnerer" even if it is not objectively better.

 

How's that grab you?

[casualplayer]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

A valid point is in there' date=' but I think we have to bear in mind d20 is in the obvious, clear market dominant position, and as such they are going to attract the [b']casual gamer[/b], much as this year's Hollywood blockbuster, good or bad, will draw in the casual movie-goer whose true interest and knowledge in the movie media, despite their willingness to comment on it, is typically sub-par. It's not (necessarily) a fault of the system, it's the simple matter of being the only choice people who look no further than surface level see. If HERO were in the same position, you can absolutely bet you'd see the worst of behaviors and the worst usages of the system, for these same reasons.

 

Those are my cousins. Sometimes we get together and hang. Play Nintendo, you know how it is.

 

Sticking with the movie analogy, anything d20 is an easy, fast pitch. "It's like D&D for [fill in the blank.]" Everyone has at least a passing familiarity with D&D. If they didn't play it, an immediate relative did. A store employee can sell it to a clueless grandma, and ring, ka-ching, money in the till.

 

HERO is an arthouse flick, experimental, tempermental, and judgmental. It really only does the superhero genre well. It's not a good date movie; it's a commitment from the get-go, of time, energy and attention. It's well worth it if you can get past the barriers of entry, but it sure looks scary at a glance.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

It really only does the superhero genre well.

 

I'd have to disagree. It works just fine for fantasy, and seems to handle sci-fi pretty well, too, although I need more data on that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

It really only does the superhero genre well.

I was following you to here ... I have to disagree with this statement so much my eyes itch.

 

It does plenty of genre's well. It does some of them fantastically. Like Pulp Hero.

[casualplayer]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Well, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. For my own sake I have ran every genre including Toon, 7th Sea and Paranoia using HERO (4th Ed, but beside the point.) I eat, sleep and breathe HERO and find it difficult to not use HERO when role-playing is involved. But let's be honest here. Fantasy magic is clunky. Movement rules are lacking whenever pursuit or dogfighting is involved, which really hampers space or sea battles. Thankfully I have a toolkit to make my own rules in both cases.

 

It does fantasy combat phenomenally well, until players get grouchy that there is no real game difference between a 13 and a 14 STR.

 

Sorry to make your eyes itch. Maybe it's the dust. :

[Lucius]

Re: Heating your lunch

 

It really only does the superhero genre well. .

 

Allow me to be the third to disagree.

 

HERO is an arthouse flick' date=' experimental, tempermental, and judgmental..[/quote']

 

But you have a point here.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Did the palindromedary eat my lunch?

[zornwil]

Re: Eating your lunch...

 

Those are my cousins. Sometimes we get together and hang. Play Nintendo, you know how it is.

 

Sticking with the movie analogy, anything d20 is an easy, fast pitch. "It's like D&D for [fill in the blank.]" Everyone has at least a passing familiarity with D&D. If they didn't play it, an immediate relative did. A store employee can sell it to a clueless grandma, and ring, ka-ching, money in the till.

 

HERO is an arthouse flick, experimental, tempermental, and judgmental. It really only does the superhero genre well. It's not a good date movie; it's a commitment from the get-go, of time, energy and attention. It's well worth it if you can get past the barriers of entry, but it sure looks scary at a glance.

Hard to compare to movies, but I'd call it more like a big-time director's work of love that's 4 hours long and dense, whereas many of the indie games are more like those arthouse flicks. PS - I'd also say that it does some other genra well, but ANY genre requires set-up work/analysis.