Combo too much?

[Black Rose]

I'm currently trying to put a supernatural martial arts high school romantic dramedy campaign together (say that ten times real fast). One of the things I decided to implement was the Fragile World rules from NH, which basically means that, well, let me chart it out for ease of reading.

 

• everything and everyone not a Martial Artist (not just somebody who practices martial arts) take double effect from all Martial Arts techniques (this does not include MA maneuvers from TUM)
  
• everyone and everything not a Supernatural Being (priests, miko, spiritually enlightened beings, magical girls and sorcerers all qualify) take double effect from Supernatural Abilities

 

Now, in order to prevent someone from going all Son Goku on my setting, I also decided to make a "practical limit" of 40 Active Points on virtually all powers; there might be some that will need to be higher and I'll let them through on a case-by-case basis.

 

Thing is, I realised that this means my Martial Artists are running around with effectively 80 AP powers for very little cost*. Is there anything HEROdom Assembled would suggest to keep these guys from pulverizing the environment and any innocent bystanders?

 

As an example, Kaneda has 20 STR and is using his Meteor Fist, which gives him another +4d6 but has ET - Delayed Phase and x3 END. His 8d6 punch will be effectively 16d6 versus this unsuspecting building. This power would normally cost 7 real points, but due to being in an EC-like construct... it costs 4. Jesus Clooney Frog, that just looks wrong.

 

Help?

 

 

*I also ruled that various MA Techniques can be placed in EC-like constructs, which would halve the cost.

[Rapier]

Re: Combo too much?

 

This power would normally cost 7 real points, but due to being in an EC-like construct... it costs 4. Jesus Clooney Frog, that just looks wrong.

 

Help?

 

 

*I also ruled that various MA Techniques can be placed in EC-like constructs, which would halve the cost.

 

Well, I imagine you have just answered your own questions. ECs give cost breaks and the rule in ECs about everyone knowing about those powers seems pretty questionable. Simply disallow ECs and the costs will be a little higher.

 

The problem with going Fragile World is just what you have discovered. It is now REAL easy for Mr Miagi to tear a tank in half. There is no rule that says you can't go Semi-Fragile World (instead of doubling add a half x1.5 vs x2). You can also get rid of the FW entirely or rule that not everything is necessarily Fragile.

 

Say that you must practice Fragility. Require a Fragility Skill for each material type, object type etc to make it Fragile (eg Fragility: Stone, Fragility: Buildings, Fragility: SuperNatural Creatures). To actually get the Fragility to take effect requires a successful Fragility roll.

 

If that is too much, just give it a straight up Martial Fragility skill (INT based).

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Combo too much?

 

I have never played with a Fragile World rule, but from your example I can see problems. If you want the characters to be more resistant to damage from certain kinds of attacks, I think I would have them buy extra defenses, only vs those attacks, as a package deal sort of thing. Then set the active point cost to whatever seems reasonable.

 

_____________________________________________________

"Some people spread happiness wherever they go. Others, whenever they go." - Oscar Wilde

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Combo too much?

 

Whether or not you intended to, what you're doing by instituting these rules is bringing your martial-arts campaign more in line with superheroic conventions. IMHO this sort of thing is for when you want your martial artists - or whatever other characters you're using - to be able to cause devastation to the environment for relatively low cost. I've used rule variants like these to fine-tune my own supers campaigns to get the level of devastation that I'm comfortable with.

 

It sounds as though you like the idea of enhancing your martial artists in this way, but just not the magnitude of the power that it gives them. Assuming that's the case, here are a few suggestions for adjusting the situation based on my own experiences:

 

Lower the increased damage from Martial Artist attacks from 2x to 1 1/2x, like the option for Vulnerabilities;

 

Set a minimum level of damage for this increased damage effect, i.e. an attack that does less than Xd6 affects a target normally;

 

Have the extra damage apply only to living targets, or only to inanimate objects, whichever you're more concerned about the character affecting;

 

For living targets, consider substituting the Critical Hits optional rule from Ultimate Martial Artist p. 156. Normal people may still suffer increased damage, but it's not a sure thing especially if they actively try to avoid being hit;

 

Define some mystical or scientific "super materials" that are not affected by the characters' increased damage capability, and make sure that they're used against your characters (although not very often - too frustrating);

 

Consider using the old Self-Inflicted Damage optional rule. This was detailed in the original (pre-Fourth Edition) Golden Age of Champions. If a character strikes an object which has Resistant Defenses (including living characters), and the Body damage total he rolls exceeds the total of the object's Resistant Defense, he affects the target normally. However, if the attacker doesn't exceed the target's Resistant Defense, the attacker himself suffers damage (minus his own Defense) as if he had performed a Move-Through on the target. If you're generous the attacker takes half damage; if you want the attacker to really suffer for his failure, he takes full damage. If you're using Hit Locations, the attacker can take the damage for the attack modified by the Hit Location of the body part he used to strike with.

 

This rule doesn't affect a character's damage-dealing capacity, but will make him more cautious in using it full-out.

 

I hope all that is of some use.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Combo too much?

 

Could change it to +XDC instead of 2x. Say, +2DC. Allows lower-power attacks to be more effective without making higher-power ones overwhelming.

[OddHat]

Re: Combo too much?

 

What Lord Liaden said, mostly.

 

You are making rules choices specifically designed to make the world vulnerable to Martial Artists and Supernatural Monters. If you've gone too far in that direction for the effect you want, back off. Use 1.5x instead of 2x for starters.

 

Personally, I'd treat this kind of Anime setting as a straight Superhero campaign. The PCs and their foes are built as anywhere from 150 point to 350 point Supers, depending on your tastes, which lets them pull off most mid range Anime stunts (DBZ characters probably start around 450 points and zoom into the 1000+ point range). If the PCs have 60 active point powers and Normals have 8s in all stats, the world will be more than fragile enough. YMMV.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Combo too much?

 

I'm with Liaden and Oddhat - I think the idea of having a skill to treat a stone building as Fragile makes good sense.

 

Also, a standard Martial Artist or Magical Creature in your world is going to kill a lot of normals - to the point where a normal battle is going to have all sorts of hats on the ground afterwards. I don't know that FW would be the best way to reflect this, unless you also consider that normals are going to be terrified of anyone practicing a kata. This may be precisely what you want, but it sounds like a recipe for destruction to me.

 

The world should probably be a bit tougher than the one you're describing, or nothing would withstand a normal sparring practice; DBZ uses this rule, if you've seen any episodes, most of their fighting is either in specifically reinforced arenas, or in broad open terrain where they can't level a small city.

 

A little bit of knockback would go a long way in this setting; I think you may want to consider turning this off and using FHs "mook rules" for normals - most normals would go down in "one good hit." A trained normal would take two, and so on, until you get into levels where people are in normal combat mode.

[Black Rose]

Re: Combo too much?

 

Upon reflection, I'm toning down the Fragileness of the World to x1.5, only for Martial Artists and Supernatural Beings.

 

I'm also toning down the EC-like constructs (called Forte); the structure I have going is as follows. All martial art techniques beyond normal real-world abilities fall under one or more Forte, depending on how their built and defined. You must pay half the Active Points of the most expensive power in a given Forte, with a limit of 67.5 Active Points, and all powers under that Forte have their Active Point cost cut by 25%; this means a 45 Active Point power costs only 34 Active Points, while being effectively 68 Active Points vs. "normal" things, when you factor in the Fragile World rules. One of these "schools" can be your "primary school" and have a higher Active Point limit (60 AP) - making a 60 Active Point power cost only 45 Active Point, while being effectively 90 Active Points! I don't think this is too extreme, since any use of a Power Framework results in serious point savings over buying each power seperately. This lets the PCs do low-scale damage to the scenery while not letting them slaughter all in their path.

 

The main reason I wanted all of these price-cutting effects in play is so that it's relatively inexpensive to get a new power or raise the ones you already have, but there aren't so many points floating around that PCs can casually use XP to become far more skilled than they should be. As I see it, there will be three "character types" (and blendings thereof): martial artists, supernatural beings, and people who can think their way around both of them. I don't want the people who are using their brains (as opposed to their fists or hearts) to run around with skills in the 20+s after five sessions.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Combo too much?

 

Is there anything HEROdom Assembled would suggest to keep these guys from pulverizing the environment and any innocent bystanders?

 

Other than not using the Fragile World rules, no. From what I can tell, the Fragile World rules are intended for that exact effect.

[Lucius]

Combo too much?

 

I got a better idea.

 

Give all martial artists half damage reduction, only vs martial arts.

 

Give all supernatural whatchits half damage reduction, only vs supernatural.

 

 

Cut the BOD of most people and things by one or two. Some object that takes 7 BOD to break, say it takes 5 instead. Average person has 7 BOD, not 8 or even 10.

 

Strictly limit the defenses you can buy unless you take the limitation "only vs. your own schtick." Then martial artists are still fairly vulnerable to superwhatevers, and vice versa.

 

You don't have to make things too complicated...this system is ALREADY complicated....

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Insert palindromedary

[Steve]

Re: Combo too much?

 

Upon reflection' date=' I'm toning down the Fragileness of the World to x1.5, only for Martial Artists and Supernatural Beings.[/quote']

 

Out of curiosity, what sort of DC and defense levels are you using for your PCs? If you set defenses at a little above the number of DCs (in order to see some occasional BODY damage in a brutal fight), how are you handling STUN? Some kind of limited defenses that only affect STUN damage, like Damage Reduction?

[Black Rose]

Re: Combo too much?

 

Out of curiosity' date=' what sort of DC and defense levels are you using for your PCs? If you set defenses at a little above the number of DCs (in order to see some occasional BODY damage in a brutal fight), how are you handling STUN? Some kind of limited defenses that only affect STUN damage, like Damage Reduction?[/quote']

Well, the DCs are around 6-10ish to start; that's 9-15ish for the Real World. They top out at around 18 DC, but that assumes a maxed-out STR and a Primary Forte Technique with no Advantages. I figure that many PCs are going to take advantage of the STR NCM being 25 for Martial Artists with the Power Forte, so that's 4-5 DC right there. In theory, with a 40 AP ceiling you could have another 8 DC, but I'm blocking the DC at 6 without a good justification; the idea is to have versatile, interesting Techniques, not a big pile of DCs. Since most people would be buying into the Forte with 30 AP Techniques at most, if they want to do anything interesting they'll be limited to 3-4 DC; the Forte offers an opportunity to boost that by 50%. Martial Art Techniques and MA maneuvers do not stack, so there should be no cluster-bombs like STR + Off. Strike + Extra DCs + Naked Adv: 0 END Autofire x5 or some such.

 

Defenses, well, I was originally going to keep them pretty low (DC x2), so people would still get hurt - this was pre-Fragile World and I wanted to keep the DCs low so I could keep the Defenses low. Then I realized that 5-8 DC attacks weren't going to replicate the damage I wanted from the source material, but I didn't want everyone having and spending mass amounts of points; aside from their "special abilities" these people are still very much human, and very flawed. I want them spending most of their points on new Martial Art Techniques, not becoming the new Iron Chef Japan with two weeks of study.

 

Then I saw the "One BODY gets through regardless" rule, which would let my Martial Artists have higher Attacks and Defenses and still be able to hammer each other's BODY down. This means I'm looking at DC x2.5 right now and most Martial Artists know some kind of low-grade self-healing technique; if not, Tofu-sensei's door is almost always open.

 

Here's the way I "expect" to see character evolution, powerwise.

 

Low-End: PCs start with some of the typical Techniques: Leaping, some Iron Shirt-like Defenses, maybe a low-key special attack or some other signature move. Over time (4-6 sessions) they'll build some of those up to the "ceiling" (30 AP) and maybe pick up some others. Now they might be considering a Forte, and if they've saved well, they can get one immediately; otherwise they'll have to save up for the points. With a Forte, they can spend the points they "saved" (by converting their Techniques to a Forte) on building up those same Techniques (very quick growth is the sign of a new Forte holder). Over more time they'll build their Techniques up to the new "ceiling" (40 AP), pick up some more, maybe another Forte or two (and that cycle will begin again). Somewhere after the halfway mark of the campaign, some might be considering making one of their Forte a Primary; in order to do that, you have to really impress both me and the other players with your PC's dedication to (read: utter insanity in the service of) the Forte in question. Remember, people who play with Forte tend to be a little... well... insane. The level of dedication they have to their Art has already put them off the human end of the scale; obsessions and neuroses are the order of the day.

[Steve]

Re: Combo too much?

 

Then I saw the "One BODY gets through regardless" rule' date=' which would let my Martial Artists have higher Attacks and Defenses and [i']still[/i] be able to hammer each other's BODY down.

 

Is this from another thread? I'm not familiar with this rule.

 

Have you a world document you can post, or is it posted already somewhere? I know you were going through some revisions from another thread on your campaign.

[OddHat]

Re: Combo too much?

 

Is this from another thread? I'm not familiar with this rule.

 

There's a -1/2 limit "One Body Always Gets Through" presented in Pulp Hero, applicable to Armor or other personal defenses. The idea is that your skin can still be cut, you can still get a bee sting or be shot with a blow gun dart, you're not bulletproof. However, you won't be killed outright by most dangers. It's appropriate for Luck based defenses, pain resistance, and "cinematic" risk taking.

[Steve]

Re: Combo too much?

 

I'm familiar with that as a limitation on defenses, but it sounded like something else was being referenced.

 

If we're talking human martial artists, would you just give them 10 or 15 points of Armor or something, with that limitation? They wouldn't die from a single blow, that's for sure.

[OddHat]

Re: Combo too much?

 

I'm familiar with that as a limitation on defenses, but it sounded like something else was being referenced.

 

If we're talking human martial artists, would you just give them 10 or 15 points of Armor or something, with that limitation? They wouldn't die from a single blow, that's for sure.

 

10 points of armor is about enough imo. That lets you take a shot from a high power hand gun and go down, bloody but not dead. I might also add in "Must be aware of attack" for an additional -1/4, depending on the SFX of the defense.

 

Black Rose may be referencing something else.

[Steve]

Re: Combo too much?

 

Actually, if we are talking martial artists, I suppose an argument could be made for Limitations like "Only Versus HTH Attacks" or "Only Versus Martial Arts Attacks." Perhaps Nonpersistent as a Limitation?

[OddHat]

Re: Combo too much?

 

Actually' date=' if we are talking martial artists, I suppose an argument could be made for Limitations like "Only Versus HTH Attacks" or "Only Versus Martial Arts Attacks." Perhaps Nonpersistent as a Limitation?[/quote']

 

Nonpersistent is fine, but it does overlap with Must Be Aware of Attack, so I wouldn't use both.

 

In an Anime Martial Arts / Wuxia Martial Arts setting I wouldn't worry much about "Only vs HtH"; lot of foes are going to be throwing things at the characters, and Chi attacks are likely as well. At most, I'd consider a -1/4 "Not vs Bullets" in something like a Once Upon a Time In China game, and even then the One Body Always Gets Through limit seems to cover it. IMO YMMV and all that.