How to have long combats

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to have long combats

 

The only 'all day' fights I can think of involve big battles in heroic fiction, where the protagonist survives dozens of attacks over the course of hours. I assume that the protagonist has a high DCV and is lucky.

 

Thing is that Hero combat is not really set up to simulate 'reality' - you take your 3 or 4 actions per turn, and each one IS an action.

 

In 'real' combat there is usually some circling and assessing and probing attacks before you get down to it, and people tend to put a premium on defence.

 

I was thinking about this point - indirectly - recently - and I decided the way I would approach it is to keep DEX at a reasonably average point and use combat skill levels far more to simulate - well - combat skill.

 

Point is if you are DEX 14 and +6 levels with combat, you want a long combat, emphasise DCV over OCV, and you want quick and bloody, go the other way.

 

The other thing about 'real' combat is that it is NOT like a kata - you really rely to a large extent on opportunity, so you could intrduce a rule that, in order to attack in a given phase, you need to make an opposed Analyse Combat roll (a new evryman skill) or the attack is ineffectual (no rolls needed), which will again slow combat down to a more realistic pace.

[Nevenall]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Any suggestions on how to maybe get fights longer' date=' but also make them MORE interesting, or at least stay fun and not get boring?[/quote']

 

I think one of the best ways to make a fight more interesting is to give one side of the battle a motive other then just winning. For example, if the characters have to remain undetected, but incapacitate a guard, they are more inclined to come up with a clever tactic. Or perhaps the characters can't take out the bad guys themselves so their real motive is to keep the enemy engaged in combat until suprise reinforcements can come which means they have to spend their END carefully, and fight defensively.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: How to have long combats

 

I think using more incapacitating effects lends itself to certain tactical abuses. Instead of keeping the target out of the fight for a few phases' date=' they can keep the target out of the fight long enough for a group to line up nasty attacks that pound the poor guy into GM's option.[/quote']

Yeah that can happen, especially if you've got a limited number of opponents. But if you've got more than enough targets to go around they won't have time to line up the "killer shot." YMMV, as always.

 

A while back I suggested reversing the bonus for a Surprise Move... let's call it "Predictable Move." If an attacker keeps using the same Maneuver/weapon/Power to attack with time after time' date=' without significantly and appropriately varying the description of it, the GM may grant the defender a DCV bonus of +1 to +3 against that attack. [/quote']

I've used this in my games and really like it. There was a little resistance from a couple players at first, but they quickly grew to like the variety it added to combat.

 

 

bigdamnhero

“It is sobering to consider that when Mozart was my age he had already been dead for five years.â€

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How to have long combats

 

/Throws various number of pennies

 

I like the "Predictable Move" idea. Kind of like an inverse Suprise Modifier.

 

I've always viewed superheroic combat as 1 panel per phase and roughly 1 page per turn, which puts me in the flexible time camp. Combine that with the Predictable Move idea and I think that's pretty nice.

[zornwil]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Skilled combatants can make a fight last for a long time if they fight defensively i.e. plenty of psyching out, taking cover, dodging, looking for an edge.

 

If both sides play it as "Hulk smash puny enemy" then it should be over quickly.

 

Long combats can be rather boring unless roleplayed well.

 

All IMO and YMMV.

This bore out when we had the sorcerer supreme battle in my old campaign. Nearly all combats otherwise have been as Gary mentions, but the final sorcerer supreme battle, even discounting the fact it occurred over multiple combats with multiple participants, lasted 5 Turns. It included 6 participants in a 3-way combat (each candidate with a second). Hits were dangerous enough that people often aborted to dodge or had to take recoveries.

 

Another comment in addressing Gary's point is to really enforce END, particularly using old-style END at 1/5 along with +1/4 Adv.s per 1/2 END. Older combats tended to last longer because I never allowed the later revisions with END until my current supers campaign. When you force endurance as an issue, people have to conserve actions and be careful.

[McCoy]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Extensive use of cover and defensive maneuvers.

 

Personally, I'd handwave. The Defense of Minas Tirith may hav lasted through the night and past the dawn, but it can be extracted to one significant melee per player character.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Coincidentally we just had one of the longest combats I've ever been in yesterday in our Dark Champions game; it lasted almost 3 full Turns. Two vigilante hero martial artists vs a female ex-Yakuza assassin on a third-story rooftop and we were seriously worried the cops were going to show up before the fight ended (Since there were like 30 cops in the street below investigating a mob car bombing when our fight began). Lots of Martial Blocks and Throws and Grabs between three roughly comparable characters although the bad gal had a 25% higher PD than either hero. The assassin was prone and/or grabbed by one or both of the PCs for literally the entire fight; her halved DCV probably ended the fight more quickly than it would have if she'd been able to move freely.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to have long combats

 

bigdamnhero

“It is sobering to consider that when Mozart was my age he had already been dead for five years.â€

 

Damn, and I just repped you for the Red Dwarf quote, and now Tom Lehrer...

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to have long combats

 

How I make my combats take longer?

 

First thing I did was lower the expected SPD ratings of all characters. Thugs and 2-3, minor villains have 3-4 and heroes and major villains have 4-5, with the exceptional (speedsters, ultra martial artists) having a max of 6. Then I keep defenses and CON values really low. No CON above a 20 and average DEF no more than 2x the average DC of attacks (rather than the traditional 2.5x). This makes for fewer actions per Turn, and many of those actions are being devoted to defensive maneuvers because any hit is likely to be a hard hit which could likely stun the target. This alltogether makes for fewer attacks in general, and the characters can take their post-segment 12 recoveries more often (my comparison). Added all together makes for a longer, more cinematic fight.

[Threnody]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Make "taking a REC" less dangerous-stupid. Right now, no-one does cause it paints a big target on your behind.

 

Taking a REC is a 1/2 Phase action, occurs at the end of the Segment after everything else, but can't be paired with an END using action. Character has his full DCV, called shots on him get no benefit.

 

This encourages folx to use up time, "topping off" their END.

[Markdoc]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Huh. Maybe I'm doing something wrong as a GM, but we often have fights that last 3 or more turns: in both Fantasy and Supers.

 

In the current FH game, we had recently one that went more than 4 turns, with just two opponents, using killing attacks where one opponent had no resistant defence at all

 

We've also had much longer combats without such extreme results, involving lots of opponents.

 

Reasons? Characters with relatively high CVs, which let them fight defensively, full use of terrain and plenty of use of blocking and dodging.

 

Even so, going 6 or 7 turns is still only a couple of minutes game time. I actually like "short and brutal" for fantasy fights.

 

I also recall a fight long ago between my character (Kestrel - wolverine/gadgeteer type) and damn.. the big brick from Dr Muerte's group... yeah, him... which went on interminably. I hit lots and sneaked a little damage through each time - which he recovered. He hit rarely, but hard enough to knock me down - but never enough to put me out, because I healed it up between hits. After more than an hour's playing time and I-don't-know-how-many turns, we ended up glaring at each other in the ruins of the house where we had been fighting, going "OK, I'll let you go this time, but next time...."

 

Now that's a fight that could plausibly have gone for hours, but frankly, who'd want to play that?

 

cheers, Mark

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to have long combats

 

I also recall a fight long ago between my character (Kestrel - wolverine/gadgeteer type) and damn.. the big brick from Dr Muerte's group... yeah, him... which went on interminably. I hit lots and sneaked a little damage through each time - which he recovered. He hit rarely, but hard enough to knock me down - but never enough to put me out, because I healed it up between hits. After more than an hour's playing time and I-don't-know-how-many turns, we ended up glaring at each other in the ruins of the house where we had been fighting, going "OK, I'll let you go this time, but next time...."

 

Now that's a fight that could plausibly have gone for hours, but frankly, who'd want to play that?

 

cheers, Mark

 

I had a fight go on like that once between a bring (the PC) and a beamer (the villain). The fight raged all over downtown as they proceeded to wreck everything in sight just to beat each other up. Eventually the villain got board and split while the hero was under a pile of rubble.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Huh. Maybe I'm doing something wrong as a GM' date=' but we often have fights that last 3 or more turns: in both Fantasy and Supers.[/quote']

Yeah. My FH combats tend to last at least 10 Turns. Of course, that's with low (3-4) Speed characters and without tracking End. It probably also has to do with how I set up my scenarios, but they flow of play seems to go fine.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Yeah. My FH combats tend to last at least 10 Turns. Of course' date=' that's with low (3-4) Speed characters and without tracking End. It probably also has to do with how I set up my scenarios, but they flow of play seems to go fine.[/quote']

Wow! 2-3 turns isn't that uncommon in my games, but 10? That's impressive.

(Or nightmarish, depending on your point of view. )

 

I'm curious: do your PCs and NPCs tend to have very high DEFs compared to typical attack damages, so that they have to hit people over and over to wear them down? Or do they tend to have high DCVs, block/dodge/etc a lot, so they don't hit very often? Or do the PCs spend lots of time wading through armies of mooks? I'm not trying to imply you're doing anything "wrong", but I'd love to hear more details about how you pull off such long battles.

[Dust Raven]

Re: How to have long combats

 

How to Have Long Combats: An alternate method.

 

Step 1: The GM says "Okay, it's Segment 12, who has the highest DEX?"

Step 2: The player who's character has the highest DEX orders the pizza.

Step 3: After ordering the pizza, that player askes for a detailed description of all tha action he's missed.

Step 4: Everyone tells him nothing's happened yet.

Step 5: That player groans and says he's gonna hold his Phase.

Step 6: Everyone throws dice at that player, preferable d4s.

Step 7: The next highest DEX guy goes to the bathroom because he couldn't hold it anymore waiting for the first guy.

Step 8: The GM says F--- it! and moves on to the next guy, only to find he'd figure he'd have time to go outside for a smoke.

Step 9: The first guy bugs the GM about getting to take his turn.

Step 10: The GM informs him he can take his held Phase any time he likes.

Step 11: Okay, he'll go ahead and take it now.

Step 12: His phone rings

Step 13: It's his girlfriend.

Step 14: The GM lays out d4s like caltrops in the hallway where he knows this inconsiderate bastard is gonna be pacing for half an hour.

Step 15: The guy in the bathroom is finally out and gets to take his turn.

Step 16: The third guy is back outside smoking because he thought nothing was going on yet.

Step 17: The GM decides it's time for one of the villains to take a turn, picks the one with ice powers and chills out the smoker's character who comes inside just long enough to fail a Casual STR check againt the entangle before going back outside.

Step 18: The bastard on the phone steps on a d4 in the hall and starts to cuss like sailor with a megaphone, which wake up gramma in the back room.

Step 19: The skinny guy with a graphic calculator who's been sitting quietly in the corner this whole time asks if it's his turn.

Step 20: The GM says, sure, whaddoyado?

Step 21: He says he's gonna activate his FF, Fly up 10", configure his Cosmic VPP to an EB 2d6 AoE: Hex, Autofire 10, 0 END, NND (versus heat powers) (only 55 Points, which leaves 5 for a Drain INT 2d6, AoE: Hex, Ranged, x10 END, OAF, Linked (to the EB), 14- Activation, Side Effects (affects him if Act fails)), and fires it all out on the Ice villain and follows up with a PRE Attack against the rest of the villains.

Step 22: The GM groans.

Step 23: After knocking over the miniature for the ice villain, the GM says "post segment 12, everybody can take a..."

Step 24: The doorbell rings, the pizza is here.

Step 25: Dashing from the hallway with a slight limp, the bastard holding his phase/phone says "hey, my girlfriend just said something that gave me a great idea for a new power for my character..."

Step 26: Someone hides d4s in the sausage on the bastard's pizza...

 

Well, I think you all get the idea...

[bigdamnhero]

Re: How to have long combats

 

How to Have Long Combats: An alternate method.

Oh, were you in that group too?

 

repped!

[prestidigitator]

Re: How to have long combats

 

How to Have Long Combats: An alternate method.

...

Hah! I'd rep you if I could. Ever read The Slayer's Guide to Rules Lawyers? It's technically a D20 product, but isn't system specific. You could write for them. Hilarious.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How to have long combats

 

I'm curious: do your PCs and NPCs tend to have very high DEFs compared to typical attack damages' date=' so that they have to hit people over and over to wear them down? Or do they tend to have high DCVs, block/dodge/etc a lot, so they don't hit very often? Or do the PCs spend lots of time wading through armies of mooks? I'm not trying to imply you're doing anything "wrong", but I'd love to hear more details about how you pull off such long battles.[/quote']

Probably a little of all of that. The PCs are often quite battered at the end of a battle, but it keeps them inventive. In my last adventure there was a healer/martial artist in the party, which does help quite a bit. Archers and ranged spellcasters help a lot too, as they can often keep plunking from (relative) safety (that's not to say I don't send in NPCs with ranged attacks, but they tend to be less common).

 

High DEF and CV? Well, for the PCs DEF ranges from about 1-8 rPD and 1-5 rED (metal armor only provides half ED/rED); CV ranges from about 4-9 (7-12 with CSLs); DCs are typically in the 3-6 range with a few 7-8s.

 

For the NPCs it varies a lot (I use some beasties from the Bestiary and custom make others along with my humanoids). I try to play, "realistically," with the NPCs (that is, act as I think they really would given their intellect and instincts), instead of always doing the most tactfully sound thing. The battles I plan out usually have one or two big foes with high CV/DEF or a number of, "mook," level ones, sometimes with reinforcements (and anything in-between).

 

Often my, "combats," will also have situations that must be overcome and aren't necessarily just attack/defense. For example, a Desolidified spirit has grabbed the DNPC and turned her into an ectoplasmic state; it is now dragging her through the walls of the keep, and the PCs have to try to keep up, find something that can affect it, or figure out where it is bringing her and why. If this isn't a long, drawn out chase I may very well track it in Turns and Phases as the PCs try to make attacks, move through as quickly as possible while keeping track of where the ghost is, contend with guards, etc.

[Threnody]

Re: How to have long combats

 

How to Have Long Combats: An alternate method.

 

(regretful snipperoo)

 

Well, I think you all get the idea...

 

I think that that is the standard method, and this thread's about alternate methods.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Long lasting combats have been pretty common in most of the games I've run. The common element that seems to make them all last quite a while seems to be a combonation of strong attacks, very light defences, lots of CSL's, and liberal use of some of the nastier optional combat rules.

Makes for a lot more defensive/thoughtful play, IME.

[austenandrews]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Well' date=' in real life, people abort to defensive maneuvers a lot more frequently. Fighting defensively will lengthen a fight. Taking recoveries whenever the situation permits will lengthen fights. Having high defenses, high CON, STUN and REC will all lengthen fights. Damage reduction will lengthen fights.[/quote']

I once had a brick PC duke it out with Thor. Between fairly low SPDs, high defenses and lots of blocks (because Thor's DEX was higher than mine) the fight lasted quite a long time - somewhere in the 10-15 Turn range.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to have long combats

 

I was going to say something about how I usually try to speed up combat, but then I read this and thought: boy I must get me one of them there fancy calculators.

 

 

How to Have Long Combats: An alternate method.

 

Step 1: The GM says "Okay, it's Segment 12, who has the highest DEX?"

Step 2: The player who's character has the highest DEX orders the pizza.

Step 3: After ordering the pizza, that player askes for a detailed description of all tha action he's missed.

Step 4: Everyone tells him nothing's happened yet.

Step 5: That player groans and says he's gonna hold his Phase.

Step 6: Everyone throws dice at that player, preferable d4s.

Step 7: The next highest DEX guy goes to the bathroom because he couldn't hold it anymore waiting for the first guy.

Step 8: The GM says F--- it! and moves on to the next guy, only to find he'd figure he'd have time to go outside for a smoke.

Step 9: The first guy bugs the GM about getting to take his turn.

Step 10: The GM informs him he can take his held Phase any time he likes.

Step 11: Okay, he'll go ahead and take it now.

Step 12: His phone rings

Step 13: It's his girlfriend.

Step 14: The GM lays out d4s like caltrops in the hallway where he knows this inconsiderate bastard is gonna be pacing for half an hour.

Step 15: The guy in the bathroom is finally out and gets to take his turn.

Step 16: The third guy is back outside smoking because he thought nothing was going on yet.

Step 17: The GM decides it's time for one of the villains to take a turn, picks the one with ice powers and chills out the smoker's character who comes inside just long enough to fail a Casual STR check againt the entangle before going back outside.

Step 18: The bastard on the phone steps on a d4 in the hall and starts to cuss like sailor with a megaphone, which wake up gramma in the back room.

Step 19: The skinny guy with a graphic calculator who's been sitting quietly in the corner this whole time asks if it's his turn.

Step 20: The GM says, sure, whaddoyado?

Step 21: He says he's gonna activate his FF, Fly up 10", configure his Cosmic VPP to an EB 2d6 AoE: Hex, Autofire 10, 0 END, NND (versus heat powers) (only 55 Points, which leaves 5 for a Drain INT 2d6, AoE: Hex, Ranged, x10 END, OAF, Linked (to the EB), 14- Activation, Side Effects (affects him if Act fails)), and fires it all out on the Ice villain and follows up with a PRE Attack against the rest of the villains.

Step 22: The GM groans.

Step 23: After knocking over the miniature for the ice villain, the GM says "post segment 12, everybody can take a..."

Step 24: The doorbell rings, the pizza is here.

Step 25: Dashing from the hallway with a slight limp, the bastard holding his phase/phone says "hey, my girlfriend just said something that gave me a great idea for a new power for my character..."

Step 26: Someone hides d4s in the sausage on the bastard's pizza...

 

Well, I think you all get the idea...

 

Now, GR, if you could stop making amusing sense for a while, I'll rep ya.

[prestidigitator]

Re: How to have long combats

 

I was going to say something about how I usually try to speed up combat' date=' but then I read this and thought: boy I must get me one of them there fancy calculators.[/quote']

Got one. HP48GX (RPN with user stack, baby!). I've stored programs for making quick attack rolls, skill rolls, Normal and Killing damage rolls, general nd6 rolls, and general mdn rolls. Not to mention the programs that make rolls specific to other systems (various methods for WoD games and editions, ShadowRun, etc.) and programs that calculate various probabilities of success and average success margins. Envy me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How to have long combats

 

Got one. HP48GX (RPN with user stack' date=' baby!). I've stored programs for making quick attack rolls, skill rolls, Normal and Killing damage rolls, general nd6 rolls, and general mdn rolls. Not to mention the programs that make rolls specific to other systems (various methods for WoD games and editions, ShadowRun, etc.) and programs that calculate various probabilities of success and average success margins. Envy me. [/quote']

 

**cough**

 

geek

 

**cough**

[Cancer]

Re: How to have long combats

 

If you substitute for "long combats" the terms "delaying actions" or "meaningful diversionary engagements" or even "rear-guard actions", you can see why the question is important. The way things typically run, it's very difficult for an inferior force to hold the attention of a superior force for any length of time in a HERO system fight. Almost always the weaker force gets squashed and it's over, and they may not even have any self-motile survivors (besides those who surrender).

 

You're left with GM fiat as almost the only way to "buy time" for a tactical situation on a scale larger than the immediate battle map.

 

I would suggest as one step that Presence Attacks be run in "dual time". If you make a PRE attack, then it occupies the same amount of game-world time as it takes in real-world time to describe and play out. Maybe you cap it at five minutes, maybe not. But Presence Attacks -- even unsuccessful ones -- shouldn't be zero-time events. Then you have a mechanism for effective game-world time consumption by an inferior opponent, a series of bluffs.