Viperion Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Hi Folks, first post: I have nearly made my way through the vastness that is the Hero 5th Edition, revised, and after reading through the powers sections I think I have a handle on what's going on. However, I'd like to pose a character building challenge to y'all, and it goes a little something like this: I have superhero RPG's. I own Silver Age Sentinels, Mutants and Masterminds, and a couple of others. I have always had problems statting up certain Marvel Characters in these systems, and would like to see your thoughts on how these characters would be statted up in Champions: Mystique Rogue Professor Xavier Bishop Gambit Cyclops (Cyclops? Yes, Cyclops. My particular trouble with him is that he's such a one-shot pony I have trouble filling out his points ) Please build these guys for me (or point out where I can find 'em if you've done it before) on 350 (200 points +150 disadvantages) points, or for bonus effort, just let your imagination go and build the character then total up the points afterwards - this is for my Cyclops problem. I have a theory that given no points limitations, Cyclops - as depicted in most comics - works out to be built on much less points than someone like Rogue. Cheers and thanks for having me, Viperion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... http://www.herostuff.net/gnborh/groups/gnborh-Marvel-X-Heroes.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Most of the characters you've listed couldn't be easily built on 350 points using standard Hero rules. The link John posted is to a good site, even if the write ups use 4E rules, that will serve as a beginning reference point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Welcome to the boards! Nice handle. The link John posted should have tons of examples. Dig through the threads here also for many conversions. Enforcer84 has been doing a number recently, though not X-folks (yet?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperion Posted February 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Thanks for the fast replies! The link posted is mostly/kinda helpful, I actually have most of those builds already (from years ago!), but there is no Mystique, the smallest build for Rogue is at 491 points(), and as you said they are 4th ed - which I have never read, so I'm not sure what the differences are I don't really need anything super-accurate, just an idea of how best to build Rogue-like characters, etc etc, within a points limit that a new GM would be comfortable in running with as a first game (as tempting as a 1,041 point Professor X would be...) Cheers, Viperion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... I don't really need anything super-accurate, just an idea of how best to build Rogue-like characters, etc etc, within a points limit that a new GM would be comfortable in running with as a first game (as tempting as a 1,041 point Professor X would be...) Cheers, Viperion Oh, that's easy. Just get rid of her power-absorbing abilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trained Chicken Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Rogue is a tough one, since you have so many potential abilities and power levels, depending upon whom she touches. Best guess is a huge Multiform, where you define the 'Form based upon who she touches... No Concious Control, Skin Contact Only, Reversion penalties similar to those in FRED but not quite the same (based upon how long the contact is, rather than how long she stays in the new Form)... The Multiforms would have to vary in power level, so you'd have to put a cap on how many points they could be built on (and it'd have to be high). Something like 125 Forms, 1,250 pionts for the most expensive Form (this allows her to steal from anyone but an Entity-level target, which I think is correct)... NCC (-1), Skin Contact Required (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)... I say Multiform since she steals disads as well as powers, skills, chars, whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Rogue is a tough one' date=' since you have so many potential abilities and power levels, depending upon whom she touches. Best guess is a huge Multiform, where you define the 'Form based upon who she touches... No Concious Control, Skin Contact Only, Reversion penalties similar to those in FRED but not quite the same (based upon how long the contact is, rather than how long she stays in the new Form)... The Multiforms would have to vary in power level, so you'd have to put a cap on how many points they could be built on (and it'd have to be high). Something like 125 Forms, 1,250 pionts for the most expensive Form (this allows her to steal from anyone but an Entity-level target, which I think is correct)... NCC (-1), Skin Contact Required (-1/2), Always On (-1/2)... I say Multiform since she steals disads as well as powers, skills, chars, whatever.[/quote'] Good munchkin-fu there. Built straight (Huge Mimic pool, linked to big Drain), Rogue is a rather hideously expensive character. I'm not sure your Multiform approach is perfect, but I could hose it around to make it work. I probably wouldn't allow my own write up into a 350 point game tho, unless it was a very high powered game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... ...and as you said they are 4th ed - which I have never read' date=' so I'm not sure what the differences are [/quote'] The differences are actually pretty slight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Archer Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... 350, huh? Sorry, I pretty much ignore points when it comes to X critters. I have done a bunch but they're considerably more powerful than 350. Here's the link for those I have written up and not all have been converted to 5th yet. Might give you a few ideas. Oh, Marvel characters are notoriously vulnerable to common things like normal firearms so I jacked up defenses to make them more survivable in my Champions world. The Wild Hunt Presents The X-Men Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... I don't really need anything super-accurate' date=' just an idea of how best to build Rogue-like characters, etc etc, within a points limit that a new GM would be comfortable in running with as a first game (as tempting as a 1,041 point Professor X would be...)[/quote'] The problem you are going to get into is that Champions can't create characters like M&M can balanced to a particular PL. There is no 350 point Professor X or Rogue. Those characters would be impossible to build on 350 points [assuming you want the same feel for the characters as you would see in the comics]. That's why you see a 1,000+ point Professor X [which just happens to be mine ]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Welcome to the community, Viperion! I hope you enjoy your visits here. Please say Hi to your sister Viperia for me. (Champions Universe inside joke) You may get some ideas from this website, which IIRC includes writeups for all the characters you mentioned based on 250 points: http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/mathew/champions.html . As you might imagine these characters have been trimmed down in ability compared to their recent comic-book feats, but if you want to build them on a budget those writeups should give you a template to work from. Some of the writeups are for Fourth Edition HERO, but as John Desmarais points out the differences from Fifth are generally small and easy to figure out. If you do have trouble with anything, though, come on back here and we'll be glad to enlighten you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Try a few of these; The Great Net Book of Real Heroes – Comic Book Conversions http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/index.html Matt's Champions Page - The 250 Point Project http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/mathew/champions.html Dejay's Champions Write Ups http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html Red October http://www.mactyre.net/october/index.html The Wild Hunt - X-Men http://the-wild-hunt.org/sitemap.html Converted to Marvel Superheroes http://www.marvelrpg.net/ Project Genesis: Conversions to... http://members.lycos.co.uk/genesisproject/convert.html Surbrook's Stuff http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/index.html Cheers QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... I don't really need anything super-accurate, just an idea of how best to build Rogue-like characters, etc etc, within a points limit that a new GM would be comfortable in running with as a first game (as tempting as a 1,041 point Professor X would be...) Rogue is tough. The way her abilities are typically handled in Hero is using a Varaible Power Pool - but a pool large enough to be able to duplicate another superpowered being's complete powerset is going be about the same number of points as said being. Then you have to add the VPP Control Cost in. Even once you've swallowed the points involved tehre is still the inherent complexity of any character that uses a VPP. My recommendation for a new Hero GM is to avoid VPPs for while. Not only do you (the GM) need a good handle on the rules for them to work well in a game, the player playing in the character really does need that same system skill as well. While I fully understand the desire to use "known" characters in your first game (particularly is the players are also new to the game) I'd step back a bit and rethink exactly what characters to use with design complexity being one of the criteria you use to choose with. Most of the other characters in your list are actually pretty simple. Even Professor can be done on a reasonable number of points if you narrow the focus of the character a bit (most people who write him up, if they don't care about points, go wild with the skills and "weird mental abilties" to try to encompass everything he's ever done in a comic. A fairly large MP full of Metal Powers, High EGO and Mental Def, and the skills of professor and you've got the basic flavor. p.s. I just noticed that the link to MitchellS's 1058 point Prof was broken. It's fixed now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Rogue is tough. The way her abilities are typically handled in Hero is using a Varaible Power Pool - but a pool large enough to be able to duplicate another superpowered being's complete powerset is going be about the same number of points as said being. Then you have to add the VPP Control Cost in. Even once you've swallowed the points involved tehre is still the inherent complexity of any character that uses a VPP. My recommendation for a new Hero GM is to avoid VPPs for while. Not only do you (the GM) need a good handle on the rules for them to work well in a game, the player playing in the character really does need that same system skill as well. While I fully understand the desire to use "known" characters in your first game (particularly is the players are also new to the game) I'd step back a bit and rethink exactly what characters to use with design complexity being one of the criteria you use to choose with. Most of the other characters in your list are actually pretty simple. Even Professor can be done on a reasonable number of points if you narrow the focus of the character a bit (most people who write him up, if they don't care about points, go wild with the skills and "weird mental abilties" to try to encompass everything he's ever done in a comic. A fairly large MP full of Metal Powers, High EGO and Mental Def, and the skills of professor and you've got the basic flavor. p.s. I just noticed that the link to MitchellS's 1058 point Prof was broken. It's fixed now. The other option for a 350 point Prof X is to simply write him up with his sole "power" as around a 150 point Psionic VPP, and dedicate the rest of his 350 to stats skills and perks. Could produce a credible Prof X. IMO, his real killer in points is the base writeup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhammeWhamme Posted February 15, 2006 Report Share Posted February 15, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Re: Professor X, a reasonable replica (especially of a 'Rebooted' one - you know, like in Animated shows where everyone is non-stupidly powerful) could be done on 350, as people noted. Rogue... harder, but not impossible. For an 'accurate' but not terribly balanced option... massive transform to put her mind in their body, with the SFX of power absorbtion. The problem is that Rogue is, if used up to her full potential, as powerful as every other superpowered being in the world combined (because she can have all their powers, given time). On the other hand, a Rogue-Like character who dampens powers, causes some people to pass out, and picks up bits of their memories is more doable. Heck, a slower Rogue who needs significant time to soak all their powers can be done with a power pool and transfer. But really, the problem is that Power Absorbtion and Massive Mental Powers are really hard to balance against the other PC's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperion Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Matt's Champions Page - The 250 Point Project http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/mathew/champions.html Cheers, these are almost exactly what I'm looking for! Couple of questions: 1) Bishop has an Armour power in an EC linked to an Absorption power in the same EC. Is this legal? (Barring GC approval, yadda yadda yadda.) Pg 314, Linked Powers in a Slot would suggest not.. 2) No Mystique 3) Rogue doesn't fly and has strength 6(!), but it seems to be a nice way to model her absorption/transfer schtick 4) The first Cyclops seems a little off, but the second one is closer. Would other GC's allow a "not vs Ruby Quartz" as a Limitation for his EC to actually be worth anything? Is Ruby Quartz that common? 5) Professor X looks pretty good - I'd be tempted to have a VPP and not a MP for his powers, but being new it's definitely easier to have a MP! 6) I like the write-up for Gambit, but I think his Dex is way too low (pet peeve, Gambit's my favourite X-Man ) Will have a look at the others, as well Thanks, all! Viperion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supreme Serpent Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... (pet peeve' date=' Gambit's my favourite X-Man )[/quote'] sniff...and here I thought we had a connection... (oh well, different strokes and all that... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Cheers, these are almost exactly what I'm looking for! Couple of questions: 1) Bishop has an Armour power in an EC linked to an Absorption power in the same EC. Is this legal? (Barring GC approval, yadda yadda yadda.) Pg 314, Linked Powers in a Slot would suggest not.. No, that wouldn't be legal under Fifth Edition. I'm not sure if it was legal under Fourth, or if it was ever spelled out. You could Link something to an EC slot if it's outside the Elemental Control, though. 2) No Mystique Look down the page a bit to "250 Point Villains." 3) Rogue doesn't fly and has strength 6(!)' date=' but it seems to be a nice way to model her absorption/transfer schtick[/quote'] I believe that writeup is based on the movie version of Rogue. If you're going for a 350 pt. writeup, you do have some leeway to buff up her stats. 4) The first Cyclops seems a little off' date=' but the second one is closer. Would other GC's allow a "not vs Ruby Quartz" as a Limitation for his EC to actually be worth anything? Is Ruby Quartz that common?[/quote'] If this restriction on Cyclops's power is known by the X-Men's enemies, then they would make a point of having some on hand to restrain him. I've seen it used against him in the comics a few times. The Limitation isn't always based on how common something is in the wider world, but how often a character will come in contact with it. If you expect to run into Superman, you try to corner the Kryptonite market. NOTE: The links on that webpage are sometimes cranky, and may take you to the author's homepage instead. If that happens, just go Back and try the link again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperion Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Look down the page a bit to "250 Point Villains." D'oh! I believe that writeup is based on the movie version of Rogue. If you're going for a 350 pt. writeup, you do have some leeway to buff up her stats. Yeah, I figure another 100 points should be plenty Cheers, Viperion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... Rogue... harder, but not impossible. For an 'accurate' but not terribly balanced option... massive transform to put her mind in their body, with the SFX of power absorbtion. That's not bad. It would work particularly well for the pre-Carole Danvers version, when all she had was her mimic abilities. As an NPC though, I would probably be lazy and go with the Multiform option, since I would know whose powers she was likely to mimic, and what the result would be. But then, point totals aren't important for NPCs anyway, so a more elaborate build would be an option too. As a PC, well... I don't think she would work in a point-limited game. Unless WhammeWhamme's suggestion is viable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Desmarais Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... No' date=' that wouldn't be legal under Fifth Edition. I'm not sure if it was legal under Fourth, or if it was ever spelled out. You could Link something to an EC slot if it's outside the Elemental Control, though.[/quote'] It was spelled out in 4th as well. EC slots are already linked. If you wanted two powers in an EC linked they had to be in the same slot (which would a compound power in 5th edition). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trained Chicken Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... So, I'm not sure how Cyclops' power is the kind of thing that would fit on a 250-er or a 350-er. It's probably something like EB 12d6, 0END Persistent (+1), Variable Advantages (+1 worth, +2 Advantage), Always On (-1/2). Active Cost: 240; Real Cost 160. AND Visor: Buys off "Always On" Limitation, Restrainable (-1/2) or OIF (-1/2). Active Cost: 80; Real Cost 54. So just his EB would be 160 + 54 = 194 points. This is not to mention all the levels he must have accrued, his many skills, and his characteristics. He seems to me to be at least a 400 pointer if you build him right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MitchellS Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... If I were going to build Cyclops in 5th I'd still use the multipower but I'd give the power the Variable Limitation (-1/2, OIF Visor, IAF Glasses, or Always on): -1/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Re: Got some buildin' exercises for ya... If I were going to build Cyclops in 5th I'd still use the multipower but I'd give the power the Variable Limitation (-1/2' date=' OIF Visor, IIF Glasses, or Always on): -1/4.[/quote'] That's BRILLIANT! Thank you QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.