Hit from behind

[Guyon]

Our players are in face to face combat and using movement to run around and hit from behind. I can't find a rule that say you can't do that. But it seems cheep.

 

I can see you moving up to a character and putting a move on them to make a first hit from behind or turing on a character that just did a move by. But is there a rule that says you can't run behind a character that you are directly involved with HTH combat just to get the 1/2 DCV?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hit from behind

 

There are no specific "facing" rules in Hero. I would rule that the opponent is far from stupid enough to allow an attacker to simply run around behind him - he'll turn to watch the attacker, and will not be attacked from surprise. The fact it's not the defender's action/phase does not mean he's held immobile in stasis.

 

If the PC doesn't like it, point out that, if the PC's can do this, so can the NPC's, in which case everyone will be attacked at 1/2 DCV from now on.

[Guyon]

Re: Hit from behind

 

Kewl, that is where I was going with this.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Hit from behind

 

There are no specific "facing" rules in Hero.

 

Afraid I have to disagree here. Defense Maneuver I's effect is that 'no attacker is considered to be attacking from behind', and according to the DCV Modifiers on pg.245 (non-revised book), 'Attacked from behind in combat' and 'Attacked from behind out of combat' both have entries.

 

Of course, I don't really have a solution beyond simply telling the player not to be a twink. The only thing I can come up with is to say that anybody who starts his phase adjacent to a character, and ends it adjacent to the same character, can be 'tracked' by the target unless he's using Acrobatics to get a surprise move.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I'd have to agree with Hugh here.

 

If two characters are concentrating on one another, the second character is going to turn to face the 1st character as character #1 runs around behind him. In anycase, character #2 will be expecting an attack and should get his full DCV.

 

The DCV penalty should only be applied against opponents the defending character didn't see coming. Defense Maneuver removes this penalty by having the defending character make an evasive maneuver specifically designed to deny attackers a clear shot at the defenders back.

[Frenchman]

Re: Hit from behind

 

When my PCs tried this I told them that they couldn't if they were facing off one-on-one, since their opponents would turn with them.

If they would gang up on one person at least 2-1, then I'd let ONE of them get behind him, but they had to make a teamwork roll to get 1/2 DCV. If they failed it, I'd give the guy 'behind' +1 OCV, cuz I'm generous that way. If they made it, I'd give the guy in front +1 OCV, too, since that is what teamwork does for multiple attackers.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hit from behind

 

When my PCs tried this I told them that they couldn't if they were facing off one-on-one, since their opponents would turn with them.

If they would gang up on one person at least 2-1, then I'd let ONE of them get behind him, but they had to make a teamwork roll to get 1/2 DCV. If they failed it, I'd give the guy 'behind' +1 OCV, cuz I'm generous that way. If they made it, I'd give the guy in front +1 OCV, too, since that is what teamwork does for multiple attackers.

 

I would allow this with the caveat that the target would have the choice to focus on one attacker and give the other one the back shot bonus, if he wished to do so. However, he would have to select which character on his phase and can't change his mind between phases (without an abort).

[Silbeg]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I would allow this with the caveat that the target would have the choice to focus on one attacker and give the other one the back shot bonus' date=' if he wished to do so. However, he would have to select which character on his phase and can't change his mind between phases (without an abort).[/quote']

 

That is pretty much how I would go...

 

Another "trick" I have used is to just allow the defender a PER roll to allow full DCV... with the appropriate bonuses and/or penalties... the less subtle the manuever, the larger the bonus.

 

Skills such as acrobatics could help the attacked, but this should be an OCV bonus rather than a halving of DCV

[Blue]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I was asked this in game one time. My ruling was that you could only get the from behind bonus if...

1) You're flanked by another player (In other words you have players on both your front and back...

2) If you are already engaged with the target, you can only get to that spot AND get the bonus via surprise manuever of some kind (Acrobatics, 1st time you tport there, etc.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I'm pretty sure there are some rule in The Ultimate Martial Artist regarding passing other characters and how that can be a little awkward if they are not friendly.

 

At present there is nothing (assuming sufficient movement and manouverabilty) to stop you running to any point around a character and attacking from there - hence there are no general facing rules in normal combat. Facing only really 'matters' if you are surrounded or taken by surprise.

 

Well I say 'nothing' - there's the GM, of course....

 

DnD tried to plug this logical gap and came up with the rules about 5 foot steps and attacks of opportunity. That is almost certainly the most complex part of DnD combat. In Hero I've never really felt the need. If character A wants to get behind character B, and there is some possibility of this happening, then it is either a stealth/PER opposed roll or a Dex/Dex, with appropriate situational modifiers, or, it may be obvious from context, like multiple attackers (and, of course, there is a bonus for multiple attackers anyway.....)

[KA.]

Re: Hit from behind

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

1) This points out one aspect of Hero combat that annoys me (now that I am doing it 'by the book').

I used to assume (incorrectly) that if you have two characters 10 hexes apart,

both with the same SPD,

if the character with the higher DEX decides to do a Move-by, Move-through, or just close to HTH range and Punch,

that the lower DEX character could get off a Ranged attack while the higher DEX character was moving.

 

However, as all of you probably know, the actual rule is that the Character with the higher DEX gets to do his complete "move and attack", while the Character with the lower DEX stands there and waits to be hit (barring an Abort, etc.).

 

Based on that, it probably is book legal for a higher DEX character to run around behind a lower DEX character, again while the lower DEX character stands there waiting to get hit (barring an Abort).

 

I am not saying that I want it to be this way, but I think that may be what the rules are.

 

I know that in the first case I was talking about the actual order of attack, whereas the second case is more about getting to change your position,

but if you consider:

"Run around to the back and hit my opponent" to be your "attack action", then I don't know if the other character does get a chance to do anything, unless they Abort.

 

Now I do not believe that the attacker should get anything for 'surprise', if the victim knows an attack is coming, but based on the basic structure of a bipedal humanoid, it is harder to defend your back that your front without special training (i.e. buying Defensive Maneuver), so you probably would get the 'From Behind' bonus.

 

2) One other thought that I have, as a GM who would quickly tire of this.

 

If the character being attacked has a Held Action, and some Sense that would allow them to target the attacker without turning around, then I think they would definately be able to launch a Surprise Attack when their foe went around behind them.

After all, when you are running up behind someone, you don't expect them to Mule Kick you in the groin, or thrust their sword straight back at you, especially if you think you are going to get to act first.

 

3) In general the GM always has a hard time walking the line between promoting clever player tactics and stopping abuse of loopholes in the rules.

 

KA.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hit from behind

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

1) This points out one aspect of Hero combat that annoys me (now that I am doing it 'by the book'). I used to assume (incorrectly) that if you have two characters 10 hexes apart, both with the same SPD, if the character with the higher DEX decides to do a Move-by, Move-through, or just close to HTH range and Punch, that the lower DEX character could get off a Ranged attack while the higher DEX character was moving.

 

However, as all of you probably know, the actual rule is that the Character with the higher DEX gets to do his complete "move and attack", while the Character with the lower DEX stands there and waits to be hit (barring an Abort, etc.).

 

I'd rather the rules worked the way you were doing it, but there are too many people in love with the way they're currently written and what that's supposed to reflect from the source material.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I still use the old +2 OCV from behind rather than giving the target 1/2 DCV (I also give a +1 OCV bonus for attacking, "from the flank," meaning not directly behind but just outside the normal range of peripheral vision from the target's general facing). If the target is truly unaware of the attack I use the 1/2 DCV surprise penalty instead.

 

I generally don't allow an attacker to simply move around behind a target unless that target is surprised/unaware, or the target is already engaged with other attackers. In the latter case, I allow the target to choose whether to focus on a character or a direction when an attacker tries this. If they choose to focus on a character, they also act as if they are doing this according to the Multiple Attacker Bonus rules. If you are fighting only one opponent, I assume you turn to face them automatically unless you explicitly specify otherwise (perhaps a good idea when there are a bunch of archers focused on you).

 

Another exception is when the attacker is making multiple attacks on one target using a Move By. I use the rules that say the attacker must move completely around the target before technically making another attack roll, but I count every attack after the first as being, "from the flank," which averages out the bonuses due to attacking from all sides. This has only happened once while I was GMing, so whatever. If I get a mob of speedsters at some point I may rethink it.

 

EDIT: Oh, by the way, I negate the behind and flanking bonuses not only if the target uses the appropriate Defense Maneuver, but also if the target has a Discriminatory, Targeting, 360-degree Sense.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hit from behind

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

1) This points out one aspect of Hero combat that annoys me (now that I am doing it 'by the book').

I used to assume (incorrectly) that if you have two characters 10 hexes apart,

both with the same SPD,

if the character with the higher DEX decides to do a Move-by, Move-through, or just close to HTH range and Punch,

that the lower DEX character could get off a Ranged attack while the higher DEX character was moving.

 

However, as all of you probably know, the actual rule is that the Character with the higher DEX gets to do his complete "move and attack", while the Character with the lower DEX stands there and waits to be hit (barring an Abort, etc.).

Funny thing is, this accuractly reflects reality. If there's a dude with a gun in his belt, and a dude up to 20 feet away, almost always the second dude will be able to cross the distance and throw a punch before the first dude can even draw his weapon.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I've always done the from behind thing....

 

Wait, let me rephrase this. If a character wants to attack from behind, he must start his movement outside his target's field of vision, or else find some way to completely leave the target's field of vision without the target having any idea where he's gone. If he just runs around someone, it's obvious where he's gone. If he teleports, not obvious. If he was never in front of and in view of the target, he's already behind. If he's in an area of limited visibility, such as thick smoke or a crowd of people, he can duck deeper into the smoke/crowd so his target cannot see him, then maneuver behind for his attack. Just running around in circles doesn't let you get behind a target.

 

I might grant a surprise bonus for this tactic though; for no other reason that it might make the target to dizzy to dodge.

[Gary]

Re: Hit from behind

 

Heck, a Stretcher, especially with multiple limbs, can attack from any angle at any time without even moving. My guess is that most GMs won't give the Stretcher free attacks from behind, although it is a good special effect to justify purchasing Martial Arts and/or CSLs.

[Roland]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I liked the old -1 OCV penalty for making a half-move before attacking. It would serve as a disincentive to this ploy.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hit from behind

 

Heck' date=' a Stretcher, especially with multiple limbs, can attack from any angle at any time without even moving. My guess is that most GMs won't give the Stretcher free attacks from behind, although it is a good special effect to justify purchasing Martial Arts and/or CSLs.[/quote']

 

I allow Indirect attacks to gain the bonus for attacking from behind or by surprise if they are used in an inventive manner or if the target isn't expecting such an attack.

[Markdoc]

Re: Hit from behind

 

Like most of the GM's here the 1/2 DCV reflects an attack by partial surprise: it's simply easier to avoid detection from behind and harder to respond to something you can't see. Running around them doesn't help since it's not like they are stuck in aspic - they can simply rotate to face you. That doesn't count as an action or a move - UNLESS the target only has movement with a turn mode: then it makes sense that a faster attacker can "get on his tail".

 

You can get the multiple attacker bonus by flanking or otherwise surrounding your enemy - you can get the 1/DCV bonus by actually getting behind him, if he chooses or has to face away - there are several attackers in front, for example and he can't turn to present a flank to both. 360 degree vision or combat sense prevents this, of course, but it would not negate multiple attacker bonus - for that, use defence maneuver.

 

This rewards clever use of terrain in combat and encourages a single attacker to "put his back to something" if facing multiple foes.

 

cheers, Mark

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hit from behind

 

Move and attack:

One way to address the apparent iniquity of this is to call off actions as half phases. Your first half phase starts at DEX and your second half phase starts at DEX-5, or DEX-10, depending on preference, so full move attacks and move and attacks CAn happen before someone acting on the same phase ONLY if you have a really quite impressive DEX advantage. The current system is somewhat simpler, and whilst not actually in love with it we often exchange pleasantries. The -1OCV thing is also quite a good measure (as mentioned by Roland) - again I assume it was removed in the interests of speeding up combat, as slow combat reolution is often seen (rightly or wrongly) as one of Hero's weak points.

 

Attacking from behind:

Foolish as this may be, I like to assume that characters, even slow ones are not moving then freezing in place until it is their next go, and that the combat pacing rules are just there to provide a workable framework over which we have to lay a skin of common sense to actually see what the whole thing looks like. It would be utterly stupid to allow a combat bonus for running behind someone, unless, for some reason, they are unable to move or cannot turn to face you, so it does not happen. Mind you if you do something surprising you DO get a one off bonus. The rules could address this, but if they put on much more weight, they are probably worried I won't love them any more. Fools.

 

Common sense, eh? If it is so common, why is it never around when you need it?

[tesuji]

Re: Hit from behind

 

A chart isn't a rule and while, yes, the maneuver penalties are listed in a chart, if you read the rules it becomes a little clearer to me. pgs 380-381 list attack from behind under SURPRISED and gives it as just one case of surprised.

 

Reading thru the description of what also needs to happen to be surpised listed there in full text, i cannot see how you would conclude that "running around behind you while you see me" qualifies as earning the surprised bonus at all.

 

heck, they even list just "has good reason to suspect a sneaky attacker" is probably enough tovoid the surprise bonus.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hit from behind

 

Based on that' date=' it probably [b']is[/b] book legal for a higher DEX character to run around behind a lower DEX character, again while the lower DEX character stands there waiting to get hit (barring an Abort).

 

I am not saying that I want it to be this way, but I think that may be what the rules are.

 

I know that in the first case I was talking about the actual order of attack, whereas the second case is more about getting to change your position,

but if you consider:

"Run around to the back and hit my opponent" to be your "attack action", then I don't know if the other character does get a chance to do anything, unless they Abort.

 

One has to accept the abstract of combat meshing with the concrete timing of a person's phase. We accept that one character moves at a time because allocating a 5 SPD character's 20" flight per phase into 200,000 discrete millimeters of movement over the turn is impractical.

 

To assume the other characters are held in stasis, however, is excessive.

 

In any case, if one accepts your premise that character A can use his phase to "run around behind my opponent and attack him", then his opponent should be able to "run around behind Character A and attack him" when his phase comes up - and Character A is in "between phases stasis".

 

With this in mind, why waste points on DCV? It's very inefficienct when it will always be halved anyway. May as well use lots of DCV halving maneuvers as well, since your DCV will always be cut in half in any case.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I liked the old -1 OCV penalty for making a half-move before attacking. It would serve as a disincentive to this ploy.

 

I wouod happily take -1 to my OCV for halving the opponent's DCV, even if I didn't get a half move to reorient my position as part of the bargain. As such, I don't believe this would make much difference.

[Utech]

Re: Hit from behind

 

I used to assume (incorrectly) that if you have two characters 10 hexes apart' date=' both with the same SPD, if the character with the higher DEX decides to do a Move-by, Move-through, or just close to HTH range and Punch, that the lower DEX character could get off a Ranged attack while the higher DEX character was moving.[/quote']

This seems like a perfectly reasonable ruling for some games, some characters, or the special effects of some powers. If it works for you then by all means.

 

Here are some situations in which you might want to rule the other way:

Situation 1:

High Dex Guy is a speedster. Boy does he run fast! Matter of fact, his full combat move is 40 inches. That 10 hex distance from Low Dex Guy is nothing but a chuckle. The GM rules that LDG is just too slow to fire at HDG before HDG gets his move and attack.

 

Situation 2:

HDG is one heck of a nasty brick. He just picked up a van and smashed it down on LDG's good buddy. Several times. The van is destroyed and buddy is definitely headed for the hospital. HDG smiles, wags a finger at LDG, says "Now your turn!" (putting his high PRE to work) and leaps at LDG. The GM rules that LDG is just too unsettled to fire at HDG before HDG gets his move and attack.

 

Situation 3:

HDG and LDG are nearly evenly matched knights. HDG raises his sword and charges! LDG reaches for an arrow... The GM rules that LDG cannot possibly get the arrow out and in place, the bow pulled back and aimed in time to fire at HDG before HDG gets his move and attack.

 

Naturally you could reverse all of these situations and rule the way you have been:

 

Situation 1:

Low Dex Guy is a speedster. Boy does he run fast! Matter of fact, his full combat move is 40 inches. That 10 hex distance from High Dex Guy is nothing but a chuckle. The GM rules that LDG can easily fire at HDG as HDG gets his move and attack.

 

Situation 2:

LDG is one heck of a nasty brick. He just picked up a van and smashed it down on HDG's good buddy. Several times. The van is destroyed and buddy is definitely headed for the hospital. LDG smiles, wags a finger at HDG, says "Now your turn!" (putting his high PRE to work) and waits for HDG's leap. The GM rules that HDG is unsettled and LDG can fire as HDG gets his move and attack.

 

Situation 3:

HDG and LDG are nearly evenly matched knights. HDG reaches for an arrow... LDG -- his sword at the ready -- charges! The GM rules that LDG crosses the distance and attacks just as HDG fires.

 

What will really decide you is dramatic and common sense. If you want a default ruling go with what your guy tells you is right. Inform your players ahead of time and you're golden.

[KA.]

Re: Hit from behind

 

One has to accept the abstract of combat meshing with the concrete timing of a person's phase. We accept that one character moves at a time because allocating a 5 SPD character's 20" flight per phase into 200,000 discrete millimeters of movement over the turn is impractical.

 

To assume the other characters are held in stasis, however, is excessive.

 

I understand that it would be laborious to try to track every microsecond of combat, and I would not want to play a game that even tried.

My original thinking (again, this is not what the rules say) was that when you are dealing with two characters that act on the same Segment, that having a higher DEX gives the character the right to begin their action first.

Which means that if Gunfighter A and Gunfighter B are standing 20 yards apart on Main Street at High Noon, and they are both performing the same action (Shoot), then if Gunfighter A has the higher DEX, he will Shoot first, before Gunfighter B gets to act.

But, I thought (erroneously), that if Gunfighter A chose to Move and then Attack (like running all the way down the street and tackling Gunfighter , and that all Gunfighter B wants to do is shoot, then he could do that while Gunfighter A was running.

I may have been subconsciously thinking that if you used a Half Phase Action to Move, and then another Half-Phase Action to Attack, that someone who was only doing the Attack, could do their Attack after you started your Move.

I also figured that you would be at a penalty, since you were shooting at a moving target.

I wasn't really intending to have some complicated set of formulas for where exactly you were in your move when your opponent shot at you, or how many inches of movement you could achieve, based on the difference in DEX scores before your opponent got a chance to shoot.

I just figured that if you chose Move then Shoot, and your Opponent chose Shoot, that they could get off a shot while you moved.

Again, it was not in accordance with the rules, but it did seem to make sense at the time.

 

In any case, if one accepts your premise that character A can use his phase to "run around behind my opponent and attack him", then his opponent should be able to "run around behind Character A and attack him" when his phase comes up - and Character A is in "between phases stasis".

 

With this in mind, why waste points on DCV? It's very inefficient when it will always be halved anyway. May as well use lots of DCV halving maneuvers as well, since your DCV will always be cut in half in any case.

 

I am not trying to argue with you, since my debate is between myself and my own understanding of the rules, but . . .

according to what I think are the official rules, what you suggest would be entirely within them.

 

If someone who has a drawn weapon pointing in the general direction of an opponent, does not have time to tighten their finger on a trigger before that opponent can run the length of a football field and tackle them, then how would they have time to shift their entire body around to a new facing?

 

I know that is an extreme example, and I am not trying to be snarky toward you, but "stasis" seems fairly accurate as far as the rules are written.

 

I am not trying to carry on a fight with you, I am just a bit annoyed with the rule itself.

 

I can understand how it might approximate an extremely comic-bookish sort of combat.

 

But even in comics, I see people getting shot at while they are running.

In the few cases where someone lets out a battle-cry and runs toward their stunned opponent, who stands their motionless with a gun in their hand until the hero attacks, I see that as more of a Presence Attack kind of thing, than the standard way that combat works.

 

Anyway, the rules are what they are, and of course, we are all free to adapt them as we see fit.

 

KA.