It's HUGE!

[buzz]

From today's mian page:

 

In the Good News Department, earlier this week I finally finished the first draft of Fantasy Hero! It clocks in at over 300,000 words, making it a biscuit longer than the 5E manuscript and the longest book I've ever written.

 

So, FH, will essentially be even bigger than FREd.

 

Playtest that mutha and get it into my greedy little hands!!!

[Lord Liaden]

You know, we HERO gamers are now used to big crunchy books, and have come to expect that that will translate into lots of neat useful stuff; but I'm wondering whether that applies to many other game buyers.

 

What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?

 

(Not a flame - I'm genuinely interested in opinions on what gamers are looking for, in your experience.)

[hybris]

Oh, yeah. I need this book.

 

By the way, we talked about this a bit here on the boards, including a very few details about playtesting, etc.

[hybris]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?

The rather large, very well-detailed books were one of the things that attracted at least me to Hero in the first place.

 

I like huge books on topics that interest me, RPG and otherwise.

 

And the 'average' gamer probably won't be too intimidated by it, either; the D&D core rulebooks aren't much smaller, after all. Especially the 3.5 version that's due soon.

 

Also:

Originally posted by Steve Long here:

Right now it adds up to 299,760 words -- making it longer than the 5E manuscript by about 1,000 words, and also making it the longest single book I've ever written. However, I don't necessarily think it'll be quite as many pages as 5E, since Andy gets a little cleverer with layout every book we do and will probably work his usual miracles of space-saving.

[buzz]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?

 

I think the big-ness and crunchy-ness of HERO is one of its selling points. There's a market for rules-lite games like Buffy or StoryTeller (kinda), and then there's a market for "dense" games like HERO, D&D3e, and dare I say GURPS.

 

I'd also think that the sheer hugeness of FH would be sort of a gimmick as well. I.e., "Do you have the gamer cojones to buy this product?"

 

I'm all over it. The bigger the better.

[Steve Long]

So, FH, will essentially be even bigger than FREd.

 

That's not necessarily an accurate conclusion.

 

The manuscript has more words; that's a fact. But that doesn't necessarily mean it will make a thicker book than 5E. That depends on all sorts of layout issues and thus rests in Andy's capable hands.

 

It might be thicker than 5E, but I tend to think that it won't be, simply due to improved layout skills. Just like I get a little better at writing with each book I do, Andy gets a little better with layout every book he does.

 

But there's no denyin' it'll be a big book.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?

I think once they see Storn's cover they will be unable to pass it up.

 

Seriously, since it is only going to be about 20-40 pages bigger than Star Hero, I do not think people will be overly intimidated. Most of the Hero fans have been waiting for this book for a loooong time. Seeing as fantasy is the largest gaming genre I would bet that FH will end up being the company's best seller, after FREd.

 

The only thing which really bothers me about the size is that details and rules will have a tendency to get lost within the pages. Even today, after a year, I still find “hidden†rules within the 372 pages of FREd; I have the same issue with Star Hero. The bigger the book the easier it is to lose things, and the harder it is to find them when you need them. Thank heaven for the index (the bigger the book, the greater the need for an extensive index.

[JohnTaber]

Hi Lord Liaden,

 

Great question.

 

WARNING: This email is heavily IMHO. Ok...start reading...

 

I think the average Hero gamer will be ok with a thick book. Hec...the FREd Hero material just plain kicks serious tail. I'd order up 2000 pages if I could.

 

Now...

 

I'm not sure the average D20 fantasy gamer will be attracted to a book this big. Isn't this one of the main selling points of Mutants and Masterminds? Same deal right? Simple and colorful CAN sell. I think it depends on the gamer.

 

After saying that I think Star Hero and Champions are examples of books that ANY gamer of the genre in question SHOULD buy. Champions is by far the best coverage of the superhero genre IMHO. Period. That is a book folks playing any superhero game could use. Knowing Steve FH will be a similar product.

[Celtic Cowboy]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

What's your opinion, folks: do you think that a huge Fantasy book is going to attract the average gamer (HERO or otherwise) who sees it on a shelf, or intimidate them into passing it by?

 

If Storn's cover is half as good as Monolith is making it out to be (which is what GRABS the buyers attention as they're walking down the isle) the size won't matter as much.

 

Sure it's going to be huge, but the content of that book would be spread in 2-4 books by other companies.

 

Now factor in the price that will be much more reasonable than what some other companies are asking and it will get attention. When I picked up TE at my FLGS the new guy working behind the counter did a double take when he rang it up and commented on how HERO hadn't jacked their prices through the roof like some of the other companies have lately.

[BlackCobra]

Me: yes, big is very very good. The more chunky Hero goodness available the better.

 

Others: assuming that the potential buyer(s) knows that it's a Genre book (with lots of non-rules stuff in it) and not a Rules book (particularly), I think the bigger book would be a distinct attraction. I realize that for us, Fantasy Hero will also include lots of good rules specific to the fantasy genre, but really they're just examples of how to do various fantasy bits. To my mind, that's more in the line of a source book rather than a Rules book, if you see what you mean.

 

On the other hand, I understand that this is also definitely not in the line of the Steve Jackson setting/source books -- which are chunky on content and generally kind of light on rules. Based on what I saw in Star Hero, I expect Fantasy Hero will be just what I want: a book which will let me build the fantasy campaign world I want.

 

Mmmmm. It'll be nice to get back to a Fantasy Hero campaign. Haven't played one in quite a while. And I really think 5th flatters the Heroic end much more than any previous edition (which for some reason in 4th Ed always seemed a little like after-thoughts).

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Celtic Cowboy

If Storn's cover is half as good as Monolith is making it out to be (which is what GRABS the buyers attention as they're walking down the isle) the size won't matter as much.

Art is, of course, always subjective, but the rough pencil sketch looked pretty good to me.

 

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37072

[buzz]

Originally posted by Steve Long

The manuscript has more words; that's a fact. But that doesn't necessarily mean it will make a thicker book than 5E. That depends on all sorts of layout issues and thus rests in Andy's capable hands.

 

Oh, I'm just talking content. I mean, that's just freaking impressive. There's a lot of material in FREd.

[PhilFleischmann]

Devil's Advocate?

 

Yes. I'm also looking forward to this book.

 

However...

 

I've noticed something I consider annoying in some of the books lately: excessive space devoted to the obvious and useless examples. In TUV, which I have, and in USPDB, which I looked through in the store and decided not to buy, there seem to be endless columns of miniscule variations on things which should be obvious to any HERO gamer, even a relative newbie.

 

Things like this:

 

Blaster Cannon - buy this using an RKA defined as energy.

 

Small Blaster Cannon 3d6 RKA, 45 points

 

Medium Blaster Cannon 4d6 RKA, 60 points

 

Big Blaster Cannon 5d6 RKA, 75 points

 

Huge Blaster Cannon 6d6 RKA, 90 points

 

Mega Blaster Cannon 7d6 RKA, 105 points

 

Wide-shot Blaster Cannon 4d6 RKA, Area Affect One Hex 90 points

 

Massive Shot Blaster Cannon 4d6 RKA, Area Effect 6" Radius, 120 points

 

etc. ad nauseum

 

Is this really useful to anyone? Is it worth all the column-inches devoted to it? Back in grade school, when we had to write essays and term papers, this was the kind of stuff referred to as "padding." TUV and USPDB are filled with padding. I really hope that the Fantasy Hero book is not.

 

Size matters not. Only content.

 

BTW, what do you mean by "crunchy"?

[Monolith]

Re: Devil's Advocate?

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Is this really useful to anyone? Is it worth all the column-inches devoted to it? Back in grade school, when we had to write essays and term papers, this was the kind of stuff referred to as "padding." TUV and USPDB are filled with padding. I really hope that the Fantasy Hero book is not.

Well what is obvious and useful to a new HERO System player is not necessarily obvious and useful to a 20+ year veteran. I also think your example is taken slightly out of context. The USPD, for example, is designed to do all the leg work for a new player; and that leg work includes showing math for increased and decreased attacks. Most of what you are referring to as "padding" in TUV, iirc, was equipment options which differentiated from standard equipment, and thus was useful.

 

To each his own. I do think you are missing out on some very good information with the pages of USPD though.

[Celtic Cowboy]

Re: Devil's Advocate?

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I've noticed something I consider annoying in some of the books lately: excessive space devoted to the obvious and useless examples. In TUV, which I have, and in USPDB,

 

Well the USPD is a book of examples, so yes by default I suppose it's bound to have a lot of examples in it. And for new players who don't their way around the system these examples is what's making it a fast moving little book as well.

 

Haven't spent as much time looking at the TUV.

[Steve Long]

I disagree vehemently that there's any "padding" in those books. I also think you are grievously overestimating what some gamers, particularly newcomers to the system, consider "obvious." There are lots of people out there for whom what you call "padding" is valuable and useful material, if for no other reason than it saves them a heckuva lot of time.

 

Considering that USPD is selling quite well, and that we've received lavish praise for it from both veterans and newcomers alike, I think the approach we took was the right one, and it's one we'll use in future books of a similar nature (such as the FH Grimoire).

 

You're absolutely right when you say that it's not the size of a book that matters, but the quality of the content. That's why both TUV and USPD have sold so well for us -- they're full to the brim of high-quality content, including what you unfortunately think of as "padding."

[BobGreenwade]

Originally posted by Steve Long

I disagree vehemently that there's any "padding" in those books. I also think you are grievously overestimating what some gamers, particularly newcomers to the system, consider "obvious." There are lots of people out there for whom what you call "padding" is valuable and useful material, if for no other reason than it saves them a heckuva lot of time.

This is especially true considering that what was in DH#7 was only a droplet out of what was cut from my original manuscript (meaning the big one I emailed to Bruce Harlick in '97 when TUV was planned as a Hero Plus publication). There were two different alien races with their ships (and, in one case, mecha), a couple of "organic" Vehicles (one literally, the other figuratively) built as regular characters, a half-dozen vehicular superheroes/villains, real-world spacecraft (such as the Saturn space rocket and the space shuttle), odd vehicles like the Skycar and the Segway, mass combat rules, a half-dozen sample campaigns centered on vehicles, a somewhat more extensive random roadway generator, air and space encounter tables, further abilities for vehicle operators (including several applications of Powers and Power Advantages)... and that just covers what I can remember without calling up the actual file. I literally could compile another entire Hero book -- or maybe even two -- out of what I cut plus what Steve cut, if he'd let me.

[PhilFleischmann]

I don't mean to overstate my case. I loved TUV - there was a lot of useful information in it. I appreciate the writeups for all the different specific vehicles. My problem was with the writeups for each minute variation on each piece of equipment.

 

You say it's not necessarily obvious to a new player, and that may be true, but I find it hard to beleive that anyone needs to be told that you can build a vehicle's radar using Radar Sense. Well, duh!

 

I'm glad the products are selling well. I want you to stay in business for a long time. USPD does not seem like a useful book to me, and I'm trying to keep my gaming budget under control, so I won't be buying it. I can guarantee I'll be buying FH though (and I want the Bestiary too, but my local stores are out).

[misterdeath]

Re: Devil's Advocate?

 

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Size matters not. Only content.

 

BTW, what do you mean by "crunchy"?

 

To answer the second thing first, Crunchy is a term first thrown around by the 3E crowd (that's where I first heard it). It simply means "full of useful gaming stuff". Rules, characters, examples, things anyone can use for their games right out of the box.

 

It's the opposite of Fluff, which is all the campaign, timeline, specific stuff which requires that you integrate it with your campaign.

 

The former is also known as Crunchy bits. Because they're the stuff gamers can sink their teeth into.

 

So, Crunchy == Content.

___

 

To go back to the first point. My wife (brought into gaming through 'urps, and is running the 3E campaign I'm in) looked at Hero with askance when she saw the size of it. "Too Much Information, or at least Too Intimidating". When I described the USPD to her, she said point blank, "that's the most important book for anyone not already a Hero player. That should have been out first. Well, second after the main rules." (It got to the gaming store tonight. He was just closing up, so I don't get the book till tomorrow.)

 

Because all those examples make the game less intimidating. Because it ropes people into the system, gives them a chance to see how good it is, and then allows them to peer behind the scenes.

 

The average gamer wants to pick up the book, and use it. Not digest it, then try to figure out how to model the exact thing they want. Just pick it up and go.

 

It's why we bought all those Enemies books, back in the ICE age. To get cool, but badly done, character and power examples.

 

Sure, you use Radar Sense to buy radar. But, do you need Analyze or Discriminatory? What do those mean?

 

Well, you know what they mean in your game, and I know what they mean in my game. But, what happens if some newbie picks up the system and wants to run something?

 

Having something as simple as a Radar Sensor Unit in the book gives the newbie a chance to go, "Ahh, that's not so tough to do. So, that's how it's done."

 

D

[Steve Long]

I find it hard to beleive that anyone needs to be told that you can build a vehicle's radar using Radar Sense. Well, duh!

 

Take it from the guy who answers questions from the fans (including many sent to me directly) -- you'd be surprised at how many people, not just newcomers but some veterans as well, don't always grasp this "obvious" stuff. It's not always obvious to everyone. Even if it's obvious once they find it, sometimes they have difficulty tracking it down, and then understanding the possible options. USPD's real good for solving that sort of problem.

 

As for the Bestiary -- we'll be reprinting that Real Soon Now, to accompany FH. So have no fear, you'll soon be able to buy it.

[Killer Shrike]

TUV is simply awesome. If there are 2 pages of "pad" between its covers I have yet to find them.

 

USDB is similarly awesome. Yes, there are endless variations of the same basic power constructs (big surprise -- you can get at just about any power construct from just about any SFX, with the right conceptualization), but its such a massive time saver and jump-starter that its priceless. It also has little hidden gems of coolness scattered throughout, and officially answers the question Ive been sick of hearing for the past 10 years (ie "How do you build the Rogue Power?").

 

Really sorry you wont be picking it up; its such a great supplement I think ALL HERO System gamers should have a copy. Its like the Ultimate Powers Book Lives Again!

[Blackout]

Originally posted by Steve Long

Take it from the guy who answers questions from the fans (including many sent to me directly) -- you'd be surprised at how many people, not just newcomers but some veterans as well, don't always grasp this "obvious" stuff. It's not always obvious to everyone. Even if it's obvious once they find it, sometimes they have difficulty tracking it down, and then understanding the possible options. USPD's real good for solving that sort of problem.

 

As for the Bestiary -- we'll be reprinting that Real Soon Now, to accompany FH. So have no fear, you'll soon be able to buy it.

 

Time to suck up...

 

I've been playing Champions for, well, since 1984...and there was plenty of "obvious" stuff in FREd that I hadn't thought of. Same goes for USDB.

 

Shameless plug time: I talked up the USDB to one of the customers - a HERO newbie - in my store (Lost Worlds), he bought it, took it home, and was able to finally make up the character he's been wanting to play. This made him VERY happy. Which makes ME very happy, 'cause I love HERO and now there's at least one more person happy with the game.

 

One of the best things about USDB is that it makes life MUCH easier for those HERO GMs among us (me for one) who haven't mastered the mantra, "points are for players." I can slap together a fully "pointed-out" baddie in no time now, and that's a good thing!

 

So, what I'm saying is, if those products can help me (an almost 20 year "vet") AND they can help someone who's been playing less than six months...well, I'd say they're doing what they're supposed to be doing.

 

Back to FH... If this book can help me ween my regular gaming group off of D&D, it'll be worth "slogging" through as many pages as it takes.

[Starlord]

Originally posted by Monolith

Art is, of course, always subjective, but the rough pencil sketch looked pretty good to me.

 

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37072

 

Alright! That looks like it's gonna be great!

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Blackout

Back to FH... If this book can help me ween my regular gaming group off of D&D, it'll be worth "slogging" through as many pages as it takes.

Amen to that!

 

Hmmm... Well... Maybe I'll take another look at USPD. It's low on my priority list, but maybe I'll pick it up eventually.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Steve Long

I disagree vehemently that there's any "padding" in those books. I also think you are grievously overestimating what some gamers, particularly newcomers to the system, consider "obvious." There are lots of people out there for whom what you call "padding" is valuable and useful material, if for no other reason than it saves them a heckuva lot of time.

 

Considering that USPD is selling quite well, and that we've received lavish praise for it from both veterans and newcomers alike, I think the approach we took was the right one, and it's one we'll use in future books of a similar nature (such as the FH Grimoire).

 

You're absolutely right when you say that it's not the size of a book that matters, but the quality of the content. That's why both TUV and USPD have sold so well for us -- they're full to the brim of high-quality content, including what you unfortunately think of as "padding."

I think I would go so far as to say that those suggestions in the margins of the books give player benchmarks as much as guides on design. That is always useful. Sometimes I quibble about the benchmarks you are setting but then I just "cheat" on those and change them. It is handy for the guys who walk into the store to score a game with new people and they tell them that "everything is pretty much like what it suggests in the books" or "we go a little higher on effect than the books do." Benchmarks are good.