They wont die

[Asperion]

As defined in their initial appearance the Borg were supposed to be all but indestructible. They possess a speed that none could match, a regeneration that would heal damage almost as soon as it was made, hulls would almost completely absorb the entire blast of multiple torpedoes, in short there was nothing that the Enterprise could do to damage the Borg and if they were damaged their regen systems would heal the damage almost instantly. Other appearances would weaken them to the point that the Federation could destroy them.

 

According to the original appearance were the Borg truly indestructible? All comments welcome, either side accepted.

[Peregrine]

Re: They wont die

 

It was a matter of (lack of) technological parity. As the Trekverse continued on, the Federation developed technology more effective against the Borg (like Tommy guns... ). Which begs the question of how the Federation got spanked in the Dominion War if they had advanced their tech that much to deal with the Borg...

[Old Man]

Re: They wont die

 

IIRC it wasn't that the Borg were indestructible, but that they were very very quick to adapt. So Ent-D phasers were used to blast several large chunks out of a Borg cube that became immune to them thirty seconds later. When the cube was boarded, hand phasers cut down a few individual Borg, then more Borg showed up that were equipped with phaserproof shields.

 

I didn't see very many Borg episodes after Wolf 359 so I don't know how many ways the Borg were defeated. It seems to be a question of how many new methods of defeating them you can come up with.

[CSgeekHero]

Re: They wont die

 

C'mon. It's Star Trek: The Next Generation. I mean didn't they have Worp marry Helen of Troi then adopt Riker's Island as his brother or something like that...

[Curufea]

Re: They wont die

 

It isn't a problem with the Borg. It's a problem with the writers of Trek.

They created an unstoppable force, and then had to make that force weaker because they needed to stop it. After that, they completely changed the concept of the force, because it proved popular and they were desparate for ratings.

 

Ignore the later episodes about the Borg. In fact, try not to think about the continuity in Trek at all - it only leads to frustration and depression.

[CSgeekHero]

Re: They wont die

 

It isn't a problem with the Borg. It's a problem with the writers of Trek.

They created an unstoppable force, and then had to make that force weaker because they needed to stop it. After that, they completely changed the concept of the force, because it proved popular and they were desparate for ratings.

 

Ignore the later episodes about the Borg. In fact, try not to think about the continuity in Trek at all - it only leads to frustration and depression.

I got a better idea, ignore everything after The Wrath of Khan. Why? STIII was wildly inconsistent even for Trek. They've tried several different ways to explain the age of the Enterprise because of the foolish line about it be forty years old. STIV was entertaining, but the injoke about being a cashless society got carried too far and later turned into abject communism. STV and VI were just terrible. Then there is everything tainted by the touch of Rick Berman.

[SteelDoom]

Re: They wont die

 

As defined in their initial appearance the Borg were supposed to be all but indestructible...According to the original appearance were the Borg truly indestructible? All comments welcome' date=' either side accepted.[/quote']

Q introduced the Federation to the Borg much earlier than they would normally have met them so they would have a chance of resisting. I see it as more a comparative tech question. The Borg, in general, were more advanced than most cultures because of their strategy of absorbing everything they could get their hands on. The Federation in comparison had more capacity to create something new, so even though their general tech was lower they could create what was needed to win. Which by the way they (ST:TNG) did and abandoned it as an immoral action. Later of course Janeway cheated horribly and Voyager got armour plating that replicated itself directly onto the hull, this and other things led to the crippling of the Borg as a galactic threat.

[Manic Typist]

Re: They wont die

 

Why was it immoral?

[SteelDoom]

Re: They wont die

 

Why was it immoral?

I can't remember all the details of the episode, but thet invented a virus that would have spread via the unimatrix. They were going to give it to a borg drone they found that was outside comms range. It would have worked but they had moral issues with it... go figure.

[Badger]

Re: They wont die

 

Hmm, sounds like proof that war aint the best place to suddenly get holier-than-thou. Apparently, Janeway didnt get the memo.

[Manic Typist]

Re: They wont die

 

... They're BORG! One of the biggest threats the galaxy had ever faced! Also, their perfect MOOKS! There are NO moral qualms when killing BORG. That's what they're there for!

[Outsider]

Re: They wont die

 

Except if it was someone you knew or of your species... then you go through all sorts of special efforts to de-borgify them (Picard, 7 of 9)

 

They're only qualmlessly killable mooks if they're some sort of alien. Very non-trek, now that I think about it.

[naturaltwenty]

Re: They wont die

 

I wonder if there was an easily identifiable trait for the "red shirt" borgs or those that were destined to die? Perhaps those with the eye pieces on the left eye were the red shirt equivalents?

 

Now I'll have to go back and watch the borg related episodes looking for the commonality...or I could just get back to work.

 

Later

 

Greg Volz

Natural Twenty Gaming

http://www.naturaltwenty.com

[Jaxom]

Re: They wont die

 

Wait, did you just say that you were going to watch a collection of Trek episodes looking for continuity? Didn't you read Curufea above? Spare yourself and just go in for an elective lobotomy now.

 

On a more serious note, I would blame it on the writers too... There was just never any overall continuity like you find in the Joss Whedon scripts. As a result you get filk songs like "Makin' some sh*t up". It was so bad that even filk singers noticed that they'd write themselves into a corner and then make up something to get themselves out of their jam.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: They wont die

 

I don't recall enough of the Borg origin to determine if they were ever invincible - the first recollection I have is that they had Phase Shielding and required modulating phasers to drop. I also found it odd that for all their mad tech, they couldn't generate basic names. How does 7 of 9 differentate herself from 7 of 9 and 7 of 9, who's right down the hall? They're ALL 7 of 9. Eesh.

 

Generally speaking I enjoy Trek, and I enjoy the concept of naval starship combat (which is why I like Trek). The Borg were bizarre in their approach and execution. Nothing more to be said about it, really. They were built all wrong. Too many points for the PCs, so then someone had to go back and redo the sheet.

 

"How many points is an impentrable field?"

"Er... well, according to the Star Trek technical manual, a hand Phaser can tear through a hull, and we saw one disintegrate some diseased girl."

"Disintegrate? As in... dis-integrate?"

"You betcha. Nothin' but dust."

"... how much is that thing BUILT on?"

[Outsider]

Re: They wont die

 

Disintigrate :

 

27D6 BODY Drain, Ranged (+1/2) (Std Effect = 81 points = 40 BOD = -starting BOD for a character with 20 BOD)

 

405 active points.

 

This can be mitigated a bit if you rule that flesh and blood people cant buy their BOD up more than a couple pips (to represent a really massive person), which I think works better in many heroic level games. Then you'd only need to drain off 24 BOD in a whack to disintigrate flesh and blood people... so only 16D6 Ranged Drain... 240 active...

 

 

You could also go with Major Transform. It has ranged built in, but costs half again as much to start with, so that's a wash. The target number is still 2xBOD, so you need just as many dice and active points. I wouldnt go with this myself because there just isnt a 'cure' effect for being disintigrated...

[Morgdane]

Re: They wont die

 

Going back to the original argument, I'd like to think that while the borg were able to adapt to the early federation technology, the fed's were able to adapt to the borg technology. Such as knowing where to hit, what frequencies were more effective and such.

I'd like to think this.

 

It helps me sleep at night rather than critique the crew of USS Make some Stuff Up.

[Curufea]

Re: They wont die

 

Kewl.

Well, we can't possibly prove you wrong. Or more to the point, we could quote canon to prove you wrong, and you can quote canon to prove you're right. The canon is contradictory.

 

Plus, "why not?"

[BlackSword]

Re: They wont die

 

Going back to the original argument, I'd like to think that while the borg were able to adapt to the early federation technology, the fed's were able to adapt to the borg technology. Such as knowing where to hit, what frequencies were more effective and such.

I'd like to think this.

 

It helps me sleep at night rather than critique the crew of USS Make some Stuff Up.

They had Geordi reverse the phase coupling....

[Erkenfresh]

Re: They wont die

 

I can't remember all the details of the episode' date=' but thet invented a virus that would have spread via the unimatrix. They were going to give it to a borg drone they found that was outside comms range. It would have worked but they had moral issues with it... go figure.[/quote']

 

I remember that episode, vaguely. The drone they captured was called Hugo. I think it was something he said that was misinterpreted as his name. It turns out he was actually sentient or something so they decided it would be wrong to wipe out the borg, even though it would save countless other lives, but whatever.

 

Also, there was another episode where there was a splinter colony of borg that weren't "on the grid". They used their technology to heal Riker by essentially plugging him into their sub-grid to heal whatever was wrong with him. This one really made no sense.

 

Given TNG's disadvantages like "episodic" (common, strong), "always wraps up in the last 10 minutes" (common, total) "code vs. killing" (common, total) and "dependence: deflector dish", I still very much enjoyed it. Make fun of the borg all you want, there's still plenty of good material in TNG.

[input.jack]

Re: They wont die

 

The Borg were a terrible idea that any decent line producer would have squashed before it started.

 

That said, once you have an implacable foe that cannot be defeated and that is determined to absorb or kill everyone unlike them, and then you find a way to kill them, YOU DROP HAMMER ON THEM WITHOUT BLINKING AN EYE!

 

Otherwise...youre dead.

Sooner or later, youre dead.

 

Which is also why you dont let a frelling machine intelligence just "retreat" for 40 years unobserved so multiply their technology explonentially and come back and wipe you out.

 

Just saying.

[David Johnston]

Re: They wont die

 

It was a matter of (lack of) technological parity. As the Trekverse continued on' date=' the Federation developed technology more effective against the Borg (like Tommy guns... ). Which begs the question of how the Federation got spanked in the Dominion War if they had advanced their tech that much to deal with the Borg...[/quote']

 

The technological developments to be effective against the Borg are actually pretty much useless against any other foe because they are dependant on

exploiting Borg stupidity. If the Borg cube you are dealing with hasn't recently encountered, say, a shotgun, then you can kill a drone with a shotgun even if they have recently encountered and immunised theirselves against phasers and even sub machine guns. Because the shotgun is a tiny bit different, that's enough to go right through Borg defenses which only protect against narrowly defined special effects. Because the Borg are stupid, they usually have no ability to anticipate what your next attack will be and adapt to it, just what you have already attacked them with. So the key to beating the Borg is to build the ability to inconsequentially vary the form of your attack with as many alternate frequencies and modulations and other tricks as possible, none of which would make your weapons any more effective against a species smart enough to build general purpose defenses

and of course you must make sure not to let up until the cube is destroyed.

 

The fact is, the Enterprise D could have destroyed the first cube they ran into if they'd had the killer instinct to just keep pouring the torpedos and phasers until it was blown to Smithereens IV. Instead they ceased fire and gave the Borg the time to regenerate and develop their countermeasures.

This made the Borg temporarily unbeatable but that soon went away once the Federation retooled their weaponry a little and their tactics a lot. Even then of course single Borg cubes demonstrated the ability to defeat Starfleet in toto on the purely military level a couple of times.

[Inu]

Re: They wont die

 

The technological developments to be effective against the Borg are actually pretty much useless against any other foe because they are dependant on

exploiting Borg stupidity. If the Borg cube you are dealing with hasn't recently encountered, say, a shotgun, then you can kill a drone with a shotgun even if they have recently encountered and immunised theirselves against phasers and even sub machine guns. Because the shotgun is a tiny bit different, that's enough to go right through Borg defenses which only protect against narrowly defined special effects. Because the Borg are stupid, they usually have no ability to anticipate what your next attack will be and adapt to it, just what you have already attacked them with. So the key to beating the Borg is to build the ability to inconsequentially vary the form of your attack with as many alternate frequencies and modulations and other tricks as possible, none of which would make your weapons any more effective against a species smart enough to build general purpose defenses

and of course you must make sure not to let up until the cube is destroyed.

Not only that, but they won't see you as a threat until you actually atack them.

 

Strike that. They won't see people moving inside the cube as a threat. Ships outside the cube they'll happily chase and assimilate. People inside the cube? They let 'em wander around, plant their bombs, until they accidentally trip a wire and the drones come after them.

 

Now, the scenes of them sneaking around a cube were very scary. The first couple of times. It's a tactic that should have worked ONCE, with some kind of explanation (say, harvested borg transponders, so the hive intelligence thought they were drones). After that, never. Next team to try it should have been assimilated on the spot.

 

And I also dislike the whole 'big threat able to be taken out byd estroying the McGuffin that holds them together'. My own Borg wouldn't have any kind of central broadcaster/'Vinculum' thingy. If you have two drones in proximity, you have a hive intelligence. That's all you need. The cube is transportation and a home and regeneration pods, and there's no central thing you can destroy to take down the hive. The Borg are the living embodiment of decentralised processing... putting in any sort of centralisation is against that.

 

Definitely, the problem was they were too nasty to destroy, and so once solid war starts, they have to be made less scary... is a pity. Borg were SCARY when they were first introduced. The managed to remain scary through much of First Contact, though that was really the last hurrah. Voyager Borg were boring. The worst offence was bringing back the Borg Queen. (I can see a point to her in a limited way... not so much queen as spokesperson, and a separate intelligence that can scan the rest of the hive and, say, prevent infections from getting too far. First Contact left this open as an option. Voyager made her everything she shouldn't have been.)

[Bismark]

Re: They wont die

 

Look on the bright side - the atrocities perpetrated against the Borg in later TNG and in Voyager pale in comparison to the way Species 8472 was 'de-fanged' - 'The weak will perish' became 'come round and have a coffee'

 

My favourite Voyager moment (and there were precious few of them ) was the bit at the begiining of Part 1 of 'Scorpion' where you see 2 Borg cubes, hear them go through their whole 'you will be assimilated' spiel, and then get effortlessly blasted into space debris ( ).

[Inu]

Re: They wont die

 

Look on the bright side - the atrocities perpetrated against the Borg in later TNG and in Voyager pale in comparison to the way Species 8472 was 'de-fanged' - 'The weak will perish' became 'come round and have a coffee'

Heh. YEah, they were emblematic of Trek's problem of escalation. They didn't know how to have incremental escalation. Wasn't enough to have a new race who just had a couple of tricks that let them outmaneuver and destroy the Borg. No, they had to be so incredibly powerful that they could UTTERLY ANNIHILATE the Borg.

 

Therefore, I never found them the least bit interesting, even when they were kicking butt. It was just too easy, betraying scriptwriters with no flair or style.

 

My favourite Voyager moment (and there were precious few of them ) was the bit at the begiining of Part 1 of 'Scorpion' where you see 2 Borg cubes, hear them go through their whole 'you will be assimilated' spiel, and then get effortlessly blasted into space debris ( ).

I think mine was in 'shattered', where the old-style 7 of 9 takes out a buncha raiders quick-smart. Walks in, soaks up a phaser blast, punches 'em all out. Rapid, no-nonsense, classy. Turned the tables in a few seconds.

 

Actually, I really liked that episode for a whole lotta reasons. It was the first good Voyager episode I'd ever seen, and made me realise that such an oxymoron was possible.