Looking at the Universe Timeline

[David Johnston]

It seems obvious that there can't be anything like like Legion's planetfuls of people who all have energy projection or transmutation powers, or the Kree or Atlanteans, (who are all at least Spider-Man level strong). "Being an alien" is no longer sufficient explanation for your flying brick if you are to fit into that timeline because all the serious superhumans are going to go away quite soon

and then nothing for a thousand years. Is that the reason for the slight difference in origin between the original Firewing and the new one, and the reason why Obsidian got replaced by another Malvan super-gladiator?

[MitchellS]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

There's a difference between a super-human who gains powers because of the magic and one whose species has innate powers. There are many alien races which have powers during non-magic periods because the powers are innate to their species: The Thrinu have wings and fly, the Hzeel have regen, the Varanyi are all telepathic, etc.

[HeroGM]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

I tossed out the timeline soon after it came out.

 

The timeline given was set up to keyhole what Hero came out with into a cohesive setting (more or less). In my experience it's your world and your universe. If you want heroes to be around for 1000 years do so.

 

Note about the worlds in Legion though. I don't know if DC is still using it or not but at one point they explained the people with powers. The Dominators did experments during the Invasion mini-series to pull the meta-gene out of people. Valor/Mon-El created a plan to take the survivors and allow them to populate new worlds which eventually became the homeworld to different Legionaires.

[David Johnston]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

There's a difference between a super-human who gains powers because of the magic and one whose species has innate powers. There are many alien races which have powers during non-magic periods because the powers are innate to their species: The Thrinu have wings and fly' date=' the Hzeel have regen, the Varanyi are all telepathic, etc.[/quote']

 

That's why I used the expression "serious superhuman". I realised that some aliens would possess some lightweight abilities like "extra limbs" or "winged flight". But are there any aliens left where a typical member of the species would be, say 250 points?

[MitchellS]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

Well first you need to keep in mind that an alien package deal is just the starting point which represents the average member of the species. A PC alien or a villain NPC will have substantially more points then the basic package. As for the species:

 

Varanyi Al'gari are about 250 point characters.

The Mandaarians have tech level 13 and the Malvans have tech level 14. Those things alone put them in the high-powered range.

The basic Xenovore package is 65 points and can easily extend higher.

 

In a world where the average lazer rifle is a 150+ active point weapon who needs super-powers?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

David, are you looking for a rationale for "super" aliens after the magic goes away in 2020? Or just an origin for a current-day (or Champions 3000) campaign where an alien's heritage explains his powers?

 

If it's the former, MitchellS has given you a good rundown, and I can mention a couple of others if you'd like.

 

If it's the latter, don't forget that other alien races can sometimes produce true superbeings through the same circumstances as Earth people can; we already have examples for the Perseids, Fasai, Malvans (especially high concentration thanks to their gladiatorial games), Se'ecra, and Ackalians. In times of high magic the native abilities of Varanyi and Mandaarians have been shown to be capable of boosting to extraordinary power levels (Sage and Sovereign from GC).

 

The current incarnation of the Atlanteans sometime develop certain superhuman "magic mutations," while the Empyreans are all superpowered. Speaking of the Empyreans, Hidden Lands strongly implies that the Progenitors created other "Empyrean" races on other worlds.

 

Although it's not "official," Michael Surbrook recently expanded his background for the Nehkojin (originally presented in Ninja HERO) for Digital Hero #35. That race was inspired by the Saiyajin from Dragonball Z, so the lowliest Nehkojin is equal to a 250 pt. super, while the mightiest are Cosmically Powerful.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

The Meta-Verse was written the way it was for DOJ to have a consistent single timeline to work in the many many genres HERO can simulate.

 

Any given game can, and should, deviate from that based on in-game events.

 

If you want to look at possibly keeping Supers around from 2020-3000 I suggest introducing the concept of "Localized High Magic Points" centered around planets, people or artifacts. It allows for weird anomolies and such, and for one to keep at least some Supers around to play with.

 

Or ditch it altogether and just go where you want. It's You Game after all.

[Hermit]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

You know, in Ironclad's defense, the guy is more than just "another gladiator".He's been a soldier, a lab assistant in the armed forces of his people, he went AWOL when he felt his superiors betrayed him. He's a decent pilot, and after his gladiator days become a super hero and artist.

 

Also, he wears a Kilt, which means Dorvalans are apparently the intergalactic version of Scotsmen! So you know he's cool.... years of Highlander shows and at least one good movie can't be wrong.

 

Scottish accents, they aren't just for dwarves anymore

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

Also' date=' he wears a Kilt, which means Dorvalans are apparently the intergaltic version of Scotsmen! So you know he's cool.... [/quote']

 

Depends on whether he wears it regulation. And how breezy it is.

[David Johnston]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

David, are you looking for a rationale for "super" aliens after the magic goes away in 2020? Or just an origin for a current-day (or Champions 3000) campaign where an alien's heritage explains his powers?

 

 

Not really any of that. The thought just occured to me that if they had planets filled with the more comic booky superpowers like the Legion's one power per planet, or the bus pressing Kree, or even the old green Martians from DC, as I'd expect from a comic book universe then you run into a problem when you pass out of the comic book genre since the human explorers of the later time periods would be expected to run into those worlds instead of the more sfnal superpowers of Ythri and Vulcans. This caused me to wonder if the reason why Firewing was given a radiation accident origin in his second go round and Obsidian was replaced with someone who wasn't a fairly typical, if fitter than average member of his species. Personally I had always imagined Malvan as Attilan writ large, with a native upperclass of people with individual superhuman powers and an underclass of "lesser" species who had been imported as slaves. But obviously theres no way what I imagined would fit into this Alien Wars genre I read about in the timeline. Way too comic-booky.

[Kristopher]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

IMO, cramming all the different settings into one timeline, and the "waxing and waning magic" thing, and the "all superpowers are really magical in origin" thing, were all mistakes.

[MitchellS]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

This caused me to wonder if the reason why Firewing was given a radiation accident origin in his second go round and Obsidian was replaced with someone who wasn't a fairly typical' date=' if fitter than average member of his species.[/quote']

These characters were changed for no other reason then to make them different, IMO. The only thing the unified timeline did was give us a better idea of what aliens are in the HU rather then it just all being random like it was in 4E.

 

Personally I had always imagined Malvan as Attilan writ large, with a native upperclass of people with individual superhuman powers and an underclass of "lesser" species who had been imported as slaves. But obviously theres no way what I imagined would fit into this Alien Wars genre I read about in the timeline. Way too comic-booky.

I don't think there's anything which has ever been written that would indicate that the Malvans are all super-powered. So from that standpoint that's just you putting your own imagination to work. There's nothing saying Malvans can't have superpowers if you want them to though. Even to a superhero world Malvan technology seems like super-powers.

 

As far as Alien Wars, Malvans aren't involved in it. Malvans have their own territory and no one is foolish enough to jump in and take it from them. Of course the general apathy of the race means they're losing their empire but if the Xenovores tried to take it forcefully I'm sure they'd find AI Malvan ships blasting them to pieces in a matter of days.

 

There are no Legion of Superhero-like worlds in the HU, but there are none in the DCU either until you get to the LoS timeline. That doesn't mean there aren't races of mentalists and shapechangers and the like but the average member of the species is not geared toward fighting superhumans. A Skrull is just a human who can change his appearance. You need a Super-Skrull if you want to fight the Fantastic Four. Fighting an average Skrull would be just like fighting an average VIPER agent.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

IMO' date=' cramming all the different settings into one timeline, and the "waxing and waning magic" thing, and the "all superpowers are really magical in origin" thing, were all mistakes.[/quote']

Earthdawn has the same concept really...

 

Imagine a Sine Wave, Magic/Supers at the top, No Magic/Supers at the bottom of the trough.

 

It's not a new concept.

[Edsel]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

Well, let's see. First, the earth cooled, and then the dinosaurs came. But they got too big and fat, so they all died and they turned into oil. And then the Arabs came, and they bought Mercedes Benzes. And Prince Charles started wearing Princess Di's dresses....

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Kristopher]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

Earthdawn has the same concept really...

 

Imagine a Sine Wave, Magic/Supers at the top, No Magic/Supers at the bottom of the trough.

 

It's not a new concept.

 

It's still a bad concept and a mistake.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

It's still a bad concept and a mistake.

whatever.

 

I'll accept you don't like it. I personally do, it's provides interesting ideas for me at least.

[OddHat]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

whatever.

 

I'll accept you don't like it. I personally do, it's provides interesting ideas for me at least.

 

This is an endless debate, if we insist on "proving" each other wrong. For the reccord, those who like the idea of waxing and waining magic as the root of all Superpowers are welcome to it

 

For myself, I dislike the idea. As implemented in the CU timeline, it forces a gamist line between Supertech (the spaceship that stops working in low magi periods) and "Real" tech (the spaceship that keeps working regardless of magic), makes super-genius gadgeteers into idiots who don't realize that their tech shouldn't work, and raises questions about immortal characters and ancient continuous "supertech" users of every type (Atlanteans, Lemurians, Emperyans, vampires, inhabitants of Babylon, etc). I'm not interested in jumping through that many hoops just to allow a few periods of No Superheroes.

 

Again, tastes be tastes.

[Vondy]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

You know' date=' in Ironclad's defense, the guy is more than just "another gladiator".[/quote']

 

You're right: he's a klingon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

This is an endless debate, if we insist on "proving" each other wrong. For the reccord, those who like the idea of waxing and waining magic as the root of all Superpowers are welcome to it

 

For myself, I dislike the idea. As implemented in the CU timeline, it forces a gamist line between Supertech (the spaceship that stops working in low magi periods) and "Real" tech (the spaceship that keeps working regardless of magic), makes super-genius gadgeteers into idiots who don't realize that their tech shouldn't work, and raises questions about immortal characters and ancient continuous "supertech" users of every type (Atlanteans, Lemurians, Emperyans, vampires, inhabitants of Babylon, etc). I'm not interested in jumping through that many hoops just to allow a few periods of No Superheroes.

 

Again, tastes be tastes.

I can accept people not liking it, and stating it that way.

 

It's the "It's a mistake and a bad idea" campt that present that statement is fact that bothers me. Don't like it? Fine say "I don't like it." or add a qualifier to indicate it's your opinion...

[David Johnston]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

This is an endless debate, if we insist on "proving" each other wrong. For the reccord, those who like the idea of waxing and waining magic as the root of all Superpowers are welcome to it

 

For myself, I dislike the idea. As implemented in the CU timeline, it forces a gamist line between Supertech (the spaceship that stops working in low magi periods) and "Real" tech (the spaceship that keeps working regardless of magic), makes super-genius gadgeteers into idiots who don't realize that their tech shouldn't work, and raises questions about immortal characters and ancient continuous "supertech" users of every type (Atlanteans, Lemurians, Emperyans, vampires, inhabitants of Babylon, etc). I

Again, tastes be tastes.

 

Well my reading of the timeline is that the gadgets don't actually stop working. If you carefully preserved one in 2020 away from oxygen, it would still be in working order in 2400. But if you continued to use them, battle damage and general wear and tear would eventually irreparably damage them and with the super-geniuses dead of old age (or once again battle damage), nobody could duplicate them. The immortals are another matter though. The magical ones would have to retreat into restricted areas or go into suspended animation or whatever, but the non-magical ones would in theory continue all through the intervening time. Of course only characters with Regeneration back from the Dead and Unaging are truly immortal and there are only a few of them once you leave out the magical ones.

[Hermit]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

You're right: he's a klingon.

 

Not really... Sure he has ridges, but so do ruffles.

His race also has a natural oscilating membrane that protects from bright light, but that doesn't make him a vulcan.

 

Ironclad's personality write up in the book stresses not 'honor' , 'glory' or 'duty' but instead noblity and kindheartedness. If we are talking races instead, the Fasai probably come closer to fitting the Klingon mold stereotype wise than the Dorvalans.

[FenrisUlf]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

The immortals are another matter though. The magical ones would have to retreat into restricted areas or go into suspended animation or whatever' date=' but the non-magical ones would in theory continue all through the intervening time. Of course only characters with Regeneration back from the Dead and Unaging are truly immortal and there are only a few of them once you leave out the magical ones.[/quote']

 

Cateran and the Emnpyreans have all lived through 'low magic' periods, haven't they? And they'll live into the future/Galactic Champions period as well.

 

And though I'll doubtless never get a chance to do it, I'd love to run a scenario in the future (Alien Wars, Terran Empire, etc.) in which characters who are descendants of 30's pulp heroes or 21st century superheroes get aided by Cateran or an Empyrean because of a favor they owed their ten-times-over grandparent.

[Superskrull]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

Cateran and the Emnpyreans have all lived through 'low magic' periods, haven't they? And they'll live into the future/Galactic Champions period as well.

 

Hmm, I'd been wondering about Cateran. We know she's alive and kicking during the war with Istvatha V'han's forces during the Galactic Champions era. The background mentions her as fighting for Earth alongside Thalya.

 

Now, Thalya's background mentions her years of 'debility' implying she was seriously downgraded in ability until the mystic floodgate blew open again. When I reread Cateran's entry in CKC, she didn't seem like she was as strong as she is in the current era back during her brigand and bear-wrestling days.

 

So, how much of a hit do Cateran's stats take, do you think? Seems like a simple matter to assume she has NCM applied during the weaker times and her stats recalculate to show this. Now, that'd still give her 35 Str, 23 Dex, 30 Con, Spd 5 & like 13-14 PD & ED which is respectable but nowhere near her current level. Sound feasible? After all, she was supposed to have broken arms and cracked skulls even then.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

I've been wondering if it wouldn't be reasonable to use some of the "space gods" of the Champions Universe, such as the Galaxars, in the low-magic era. Galactic Champions implies that there's a distinction between magic and "cosmic power" which such entities wield, so the loss of magic wouldn't necessarily affect their abilities. Incredibly advanced alien beings with vast personal power are certainly not foreign to science fiction.

[David Johnston]

Re: Looking at the Universe Timeline

 

Thinking about that...

 

The reason why magic stops working is, let's say, because it comes from other universes like the heavens and hells for holy and infernal magic, and more neutral universes for the amoral magics. It's a kind of energy that just doesn't naturally exist in the default Champions Universe, but can be summoned into it when the barriers between the universes aren't very "thick".

 

Now this whole "thin inter-universe barrier" rationalisation can be used for any of the conservation-law violating superpowers and super-gadgets. Instead of actually needing a power plant or consuming enough calories to fuel that energy blast or that superstrength, you just draw the energy out of some lower entropy universe where energy is free for the asking. That energy itself is still mundane energy without the peculiar semi-sentient nature of magic that responds to symbols and Word of Power but it still comes from other places with other rules.

 

So in 2020, Earth's heros and villains have the big showdown with the Lords of Edom or such like extra-universal monstrosities. If they win, then powerful

barriers are created to shut them out or cut them off from their power sources so they die or deactivate. The result is that the most powerful superhumans also lose contact with their power source and are suddenly depowered.

 

This means that super-gadgeteers who build gadgets that no longer work weren't deluding themselves at all any more than someone who builds an automobile was deluding himself because later on petroleum ran out.

 

But the cosmic power dudes aren't relying on a foreign energy source. The energy they call on is native to their universe. So, they are unaffected.