Villianous/Heroic Powers

[Korvar]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Way back when people posted to Usenet, there was at least one poster who claimed that Invisibility was a power that would, inevitably, lead to the user becoming corrupted and evil. The temptations to use it for Bad being just irrisistable, apparently. I think Desolid was in that category, too.

 

Not sure I believe that myself, but I thought I'd throw that one out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Which of course is exactly why she was rejected as a functional heroine.

 

Actually, she was rejected due to a lack of control - she couldn't target accurately, so it wasn't just the villain who would get sick when she used her powers. The LoSH were initially very impressed when she took down three members with barely any effort. When the judges were also taken down, they rejected her for membership.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Way back when people posted to Usenet, there was at least one poster who claimed that Invisibility was a power that would, inevitably, lead to the user becoming corrupted and evil. The temptations to use it for Bad being just irrisistable, apparently. I think Desolid was in that category, too.

 

Not sure I believe that myself, but I thought I'd throw that one out.

Yeah, certainly that's been the moral of many, if not most Invisibile Man stories, from HGW's original through Hollow Man and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (the comic - never saw the movie). Turning invisible immediately transforms even the most angelic altar boy into an immoral, lecherous ***hole. I think the idea is highly debatable myself, but there you go. [repped for bringing it up]

[TheTemplar]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Doctor's charge for their services, don't they? Is that evil?

 

 

I wouldn't say it's "Evil," necessarily. The Dr. is a professional who performs a service for a fee. Mercantile, yes. Evil, not inherently. Heroic? Maybe. Maybe not. Again, it all comes down to motivations.

[David Johnston]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Actually' date=' she was rejected due to a lack of control - she couldn't target accurately, so it wasn't just the villain who would get sick when she used her powers. The LoSH were initially very impressed when she took down three members with barely any effort. When the judges were also taken down, they rejected her for membership.[/quote']

 

Well yes but a lack of control is inherent in the power to give people infectious diseases. That's the reason why nerve gas and weaponised bacteria have become such questionable weapons. It's not just that they kill the targets indiscriminately. They pose almost as great a threat to your side as they move

into the attacked area.

[transmetahuman]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Yeah' date=' certainly that's been the moral of many, if not most Invisibile Man stories, from HGW's original through Hollow Man and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (the comic - never saw the movie). Turning invisible immediately transforms even the most angelic altar boy into an immoral, lecherous ***hole. I think the idea is highly debatable myself, but there you go. [repped for bringing it up']

It goes all the way back to Plato, with the story about the Ring of Gyges in The Republic. Probably something Tolkein had in mind when creating the One Ring, too, though its corrupting influence didn't use the same philosphical mechanism.

 

Plato's ring gave invisibility, but the supposedly inevitable corruption came from the ability to do things anonymously, without risking getting caught - a luxury that invisible folks in superhero worlds don't really have. They didn't have fingerprint/DNA/footprint profiling back then, or he'd have probably used a different example.

 

Now that we've got this internet thingie, our society is a living test of his argument.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Rep for taking the argument back to origins!

Now that we've got this internet thingie' date=' our society is a living test of his argument.[/quote']

Hmm...by that test, I'd have to say he had a point. There sure do seem to be an awful lot of people who regard the internet as basically a way to be ***holes with no repercusions.

[Brandi]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Another notion with invisibility, at least the permanent, always-on kind, is the isolation it ends up forcing on the person, which certainly can't be any good for one's mental health.

[Intrope]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Resurrection as an evil power: Desty Nova from Battle Angel Alita. He did resurrect people (all the time!)--but he did so to use them in all sorts of inhumane experiments, and frequently brought them back in incomplete or modified bodies to this end. (Now that I think about it, for Iron-age games Desty Nova, Demonic Genius would be a great substitute for Teleios, who is rather bland over all).

 

It is pretty hard to have unequivocably good or evil powers (although 'ripping open your own chest to release a horde of demons' is probably one of them).

[Lucius]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Resurrection as an evil power: Desty Nova from Battle Angel Alita. He did resurrect people (all the time!)--but he did so to use them in all sorts of inhumane experiments, and frequently brought them back in incomplete or modified bodies to this end. (Now that I think about it, for Iron-age games Desty Nova, Demonic Genius would be a great substitute for Teleios, who is rather bland over all).

 

It is pretty hard to have unequivocably good or evil powers (although 'ripping open your own chest to release a horde of demons' is probably one of them).

 

How about ripping open your own chest to release a host of angels?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that Lucius does not have to rip open his own chests, having kept the keys for all of them.

[Outsider]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

I'd say that any area effect attack (especially one that does BOD) with Megascale lends itself to evil uses only. Very hard not to hit a lot of innocent people when your attack is several km across.

[Tarek]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

...but not impossible. Consider the "fleet of hostile alien ships" scenario and a superhero with EB, Megascale, Area of Effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

...but not impossible. Consider the "fleet of hostile alien ships" scenario and a superhero with EB' date=' Megascale, Area of Effect.[/quote']

 

Even absent such a scenario, the power does not make the character possessing it villainous. His choice to use it, or not use it, does. If your character has a flaming force field, and is in a warehouse storing volatile materials (say rocket fuel) with several civilians when a gunman fires on him, does he Flame On (and risk igniting the fuel and killing the civilians) or get shot (saving the civilians)?

 

You can rationalize that the gunman might set off the rocket fuel himself (intentionally or accidentally), or kill the civilians himself, but ultimately, the decision to Flame On indicates your own safety is of higher importance than that of the civilians.

[David Johnston]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Even absent such a scenario, the power does not make the character possessing it villainous. His choice to use it, or not use it, does. If your character has a flaming force field, and is in a warehouse storing volatile materials (say rocket fuel) with several civilians when a gunman fires on him, does he Flame On (and risk igniting the fuel and killing the civilians) or get shot (saving the civilians)?

 

Why did a character with flame powers go into a warehouse he knew was filled with volatile chemicals?

 

But that's beside the point. The subject here is not whether having the power makes you evil but whether it is simply more useful for evil than for benevolent purposes. Yes, Doctor Destruction might come in darn handy in certain specific circumstances and yes, he could just decide not to use his power. But on a day to day basis, with no specific circumstances, how easy is it going to be for him to find a benevolent use for that particular power?

[TheTemplar]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

...but not impossible. Consider the "fleet of hostile alien ships" scenario and a superhero with EB' date=' Megascale, Area of Effect.[/quote']

 

 

This reminds me of the season finale of JLU last season, where the Watchtower was housing a super-powerful orbital laser cannon. I'm sure it was initially put there for defensive purposes only. Having what would be a "floating death ray" in the hands of Dr. Doom or Darkseid didn't make the JL evil, though it certainly didn't improve public perception of them when it became known that the cannon was there.

[Tarek]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

But that's beside the point. The subject here is not whether having the power makes you evil but whether it is simply more useful for evil than for benevolent purposes.

 

The original post asked three questions. "Is there a power that lends itself more to good? Is there one that lends itself more to evil? And is there a power that absolutely cannot be used for either good or evil?"

 

In Champions rules terms, there is no Power that is used solely either by villains or by heros. None. What makes a Power villanous or heroic depends on the choices and motivations of the character who uses it.

 

You can add limitations, advantages, and SFX to a Power which may cause it to become more hero oriented or villain oriented, certainly, and may tend to cause the character who has that power to use it less or more often depending on tendencies. But that's a function of the limitations and advantages applied to the Power and the circumstances in which the power is likely to be used, and not a part of the Power itself.

 

The campaign background also plays a role in this. Some things that are appropriate for Dark Champions are inappropriate for a Four-Color Golden Age campaign.

[Outsider]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

...but not impossible. Consider the "fleet of hostile alien ships" scenario and a superhero with EB' date=' Megascale, Area of Effect.[/quote']

 

When I posted that, I was careful not to claim that it was an inherently evil power, which is why I only said that it 'lent itself to evil use'. Any power someone cares to name can be named 'not necessarily evil to use' in some contrived scenario. Even a power that utterly destroyed entire universes could be called 'good' if the character posessing it used it only on irredeemably evil dimensions.

[Vorsch]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

inherantly evil power.

 

permanent mindcontroll into your slave

 

destroys freewill, usefull application on vilains, but in the end a evil power.

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Well yes but a lack of control is inherent in the power to give people infectious diseases.

Not necessarily in her case. I can't recall offhand anything she ever infected anyone with spreading to people other than the person or persons initially infected. In fact, the illness would run its course and be shaken off faster than if it were a "normal" infection.

 

She was called Infectious Lass because she could infect other people, not because those people were in turn infectious (which it seems they weren't).

[megaplayboy]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Transform, psychic, "good" to "evil"--inherently evil power

Transform, psychic, "evil" to "good"--inherently good power

 

 

except...what if the power is on a trigger, and the characters reverse their transformations when the opportunity to backstab their evil/good allies is at a maximum?

 

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Transform' date=' psychic, "evil" to "good"--inherently good power[/quote']

The Squadron Supreme 12-issue maxi-series would debate this.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

The Squadron Supreme 12-issue maxi-series would debate this.

well, and a good debate it was. If the subject volunteered to be relieved of their compulsion to do evil, then it's a 'good' power. If the subject was forced against their will to conform to someone's idea of 'good', then it's an 'evil' power.

 

Depends on how one defines "free will", "good", "evil" and "compulsion" vs. "decision".

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Depends on how one defines "free will"' date=' "good", "evil" and "compulsion" vs. "decision". [/quote']

Yeah, in the real world (or a "realistic" gaming world) such questions are a bit more complictaed than the traditional 3x3 alignment chart.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

Transform, psychic, "good" to "evil"--inherently evil power

Transform, psychic, "evil" to "good"--inherently good power

 

If overriding a person's free will is Evil (as is suggested in discussing Mind Control, a temporary override), how can rewiring them to be "good" be anything but an evil act.

 

This issue formed the crux of Mark Greunwald's Squadron Supreme miniseries many years ago.

 

EDIT: beaten to the punch, I see...

 

Normally, animals are considered neither "good" nor "evil" because they lack the capacity to make moral choices. Hardwiring someone to be "good" or "evil" would seem to have the same result of removing any capacity to make moral choices, such that the affected individual would be neither good nor evil, just a cipher minicking one or the other.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Villianous/Heroic Powers

 

If overriding a person's free will is Evil (as is suggested in discussing Mind Control, a temporary override), how can rewiring them to be "good" be anything but an evil act.

 

This issue formed the crux of Mark Greunwald's Squadron Supreme miniseries many years ago.

 

EDIT: beaten to the punch, I see...

 

yep...and the dilemma occurs when "evil" and "good" are not so much clear cut moral decisions made out of "pure" free will, but learned behaviors driven as much by compulsion as by will. What if someone can still decide whether to commit a good or evil act, but no longer feels a compulsion one way or the other? Is that still stripping them of their free will, or is it increasing their free will?