The Analyze Skill

[Ndreare]

The Analyze Skill

 

I work as an Industrial Inspector. In real life it works a formal form of find weakness. Basically by under standing design philosophy and basic math you are able to under stand weak points, erosion and corrosion locations and where cracks will occur. It also helps in demolitions as you know where the weak spots of a structure are and how to undermine a weakness.

 

Have any of you ever thought of expanding this skill to be more expansive. I am planning a fantasy game and one of the Players will be playing an Engineer. I was going to make up a bunch of “Realistic†(as realistic as can be when the elf shoots lightning) rules for Analyze and how it would help in these things. But before I wasted hours of my time working through it and balancing it I wanted to know if the work has been done?

 

So have any of you developed this skill out? If not I could play with it and share my ideas.

[Bloodstone]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

Well, I'd love to hear your ideas, but there is already an optional rule that lets Analyze works as a Complementary skill for Find Weakness. It's a pretty potent combo.

 

Oddly, I have a character I'm working on that is supposed to have training in structural engineering and I was going to start a thread asking what skills would be most appropriate...

[Ndreare]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

Well, I'd love to hear your ideas, but there is already an optional rule that lets Analyze works as a Complementary skill for Find Weakness. It's a pretty potent combo.

 

Oddly, I have a character I'm working on that is supposed to have training in structural engineering and I was going to start a thread asking what skills would be most appropriate...

 

I am thinking as a normal skill. As a person in the real world I do not have a power like Find Weakness but I do have a skill that allows me to analyze something and do a real life version of find weakness. Also there are tools that can be used to help in those inspections/analyzations (is that a word). Examples of complementary skills would be like Ultrasound, Magnetic and Penatrent (oil) examinations.

 

I think resorting to use a power for a skill that exist in real life would cheapen the effect. It would be like telling a Professional Prestidigitator that he simply needs to buy "Images" to trick people. The skill is much more and at the same time much less than images. And because we know that, there is a Sleight of Hand skill.

 

I will have work something up if no one else has. I was thinking of a complementory skill where every 2 points you make your roll by allowing a +1 DC on yor attack. But had not worked out the details or put in enough thaught.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

I've used Analyze for all kinds of stuff where the main purpose is to look at something and get information:

 

Analyze: Structural Integrity

 

Could get you some bonuses to a Demolitions Roll, or it could warn you of a weak point in the structure and have it fixed before it fails. There's all sorts of possibilities for Analyze.

[Manic Typist]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

Don't forget to allow KS: Various engineering fields etc to contribute their bonuses as well.

 

After all, someone with Knowledge skills of Engineering, Architecture, and Explosives should have an EXCELLENT chance of taking down most buildings with a little bit of time.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

Tesla could attach a small oscillating spring-driven motor with variable frequency to a building's foundation and tune it until it hit a resonant frequency that would bring the whole building down on its own.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

Tesla could attach a small oscillating spring-driven motor with variable frequency to a building's foundation and tune it until it hit a resonant frequency that would bring the whole building down on its own.

resonance is the coolest concept I ran across as a kid... I still love the idea of it. Break anything by finding the right frequency.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

I hate reiterating what others have said, but I want to reinforce it. True story: your 'real life' skill of analzye would translate just fine in HERO terms as a power, Find Weakness, without fear of 'breaking the special effect.' Just because FW is a 'power' doesn't mean you have to think of it like one; reason from effect. "My Elf knows how to shoot the lightning good. I crispy you now!!... Eh... DM, I make a Find Weakness roll with my Lightning & Wind Skill to see if I bend the lightning around his defenses."

 

All the same thing. "DM, my engineer runs through the garage, looking around frantically for a load bearing post. I'm going to use my Find Weakness: Bases to see if I can bring this puppy down with one well placed explosive."

 

So you do, reasonably, have Find Weakness, since YOUR well placed chage will be way more effective than MY well placed charge.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

I hate reiterating what others have said, but I want to reinforce it. True story: your 'real life' skill of analzye would translate just fine in HERO terms as a power, Find Weakness, without fear of 'breaking the special effect.' Just because FW is a 'power' doesn't mean you have to think of it like one; reason from effect. "My Elf knows how to shoot the lightning good. I crispy you now!!... Eh... DM, I make a Find Weakness roll with my Lightning & Wind Skill to see if I bend the lightning around his defenses."

 

All the same thing. "DM, my engineer runs through the garage, looking around frantically for a load bearing post. I'm going to use my Find Weakness: Bases to see if I can bring this puppy down with one well placed explosive."

 

So you do, reasonably, have Find Weakness, since YOUR well placed chage will be way more effective than MY well placed charge.

And yet the real-life skills probably aren't going to help a great deal when going up against a giant or a power-armor villain. People seem awfully quick to use Powers for things that should be done with Skills, and then hesitant to do things outside of combat with Skills that might conceivably have some far off resemblance to some Power or another. I don't really get the perspective myself. Encouraging skill use is something I think adds a lot of flavor and functionality even in superheroic games.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

The problem with using something like Find Weakness to satisfy the SFX of analysing a structure of some kind, is that Find Weakness is bought for the attack or Attack Power rather than the substance they can find weakness in. I suppose Find Weakness could be modified so you can by it versus substances you can find the weakness of rather than the attack one is good at penetrating defenses with, but could the Analyse Skill do the same thing? I don't want to say it can, mainly because it's so much cheaper, but what if the circumstantial penalties evened things out a bit. Say the DEF or BODY of the substance you are Analysing acted as a penalty to the roll. That would require a very high skill roll to bring down some larger structures, and possibly bring the cost similar to thta of Find Weakness.

 

Just some thoughts of mine while I'm thinking this through.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

There's another aspect being missed. You may be able to analyze a structure and find what its weak spots and vulnerabilities might be, but that doesn't mean you are the one who actually makes the, "attack," or performs the action that brings it down. So are we going to start adding UBO to the Find Weakness? For more difficult or simple situations are we going to include Extra Time and RSR for the situational modifiers and maybe Complimentary rolls?

 

Are we going to put together some kind of wonky Linked NND attack for the situations in which it is an unusual action (removing a keystone) rather than using one of the character's usual attacks that does the destroying or weakening (my example with Tesla was a good one: his little machine certainly wouldn't do any damage to a person; what kind of convoluted build are we going to produce for it?)?

 

There's a heck of a lot of ground to cover when we could just say it is a skill (useless most of the time in combat) and be done with it.

[Robyn]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

I think you should repost this suggestion (and your expertise) to the new Skills forum. It's still good here, but I think Steve would appreciate your input on the Analyze skill.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

I think you should repost this suggestion (and your expertise) to the new Skills forum. It's still good here' date=' but I think Steve would appreciate your input on the Analyze skill.[/quote']

 

I think it's already been suggested, though I'm not sure if these specific uses where covered.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

There's another aspect being missed. You may be able to analyze a structure and find what its weak spots and vulnerabilities might be' date=' but that doesn't mean [i']you[/i] are the one who actually makes the, "attack," or performs the action that brings it down. So are we going to start adding UBO to the Find Weakness? For more difficult or simple situations are we going to include Extra Time and RSR for the situational modifiers and maybe Complimentary rolls?

 

Are we going to put together some kind of wonky Linked NND attack for the situations in which it is an unusual action (removing a keystone) rather than using one of the character's usual attacks that does the destroying or weakening (my example with Tesla was a good one: his little machine certainly wouldn't do any damage to a person; what kind of convoluted build are we going to produce for it?)?

 

There's a heck of a lot of ground to cover when we could just say it is a skill (useless most of the time in combat) and be done with it.

yeah exactly.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

I've always thought Analyze was a very under-utilized skill. I've never sat down and written anything up to expand the skill, simply because for most instances I prefer to keep it a little vague to maximize versatilty. But that doesn't mean I won't plagerize whatever you come up with, of course.

 

...but could the Analyse Skill do the same thing? I don't want to say it can' date=' mainly because it's so much cheaper[/quote']

If the concern is that Analyze is too cheap, then the obvious answer is to grant significant penalties for most situations, so that the character needs to buy up his Analyze in order to have any shot at it. If you need to have an 18- base roll in order to have much hope of success, then suddenly it's not so cheap anymore.

 

There's a heck of a lot of ground to cover when we could just say it is a skill (useless most of the time in combat) and be done with it.

Hmm.. I hadn't thought about it this way, but looked at from a certain angle you could almost think of Analyze as the non-combat version of Find Weakness.

[Tim]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

IF I'm playing a scientist or engineer in a sci-fi game, I like to buy "Analyze: Alien tech" as one of my skills. Do I expect it to tell me everything about the peice of tech I'm studing? No. Do I expect to get an idea what it might be for? yes.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

IF I'm playing a scientist or engineer in a sci-fi game' date=' I like to buy "Analyze: Alien tech" as one of my skills. Do I expect it to tell me everything about the peice of tech I'm studing? No. Do I expect to get an idea what it might be for? yes.[/quote']

Good one!

Reminded me of the new Doctor Who episode "Dalek" when the doctor was looking at the collection of "uncategorized" alien weapons for something to fight the dalek with...

something on the order of "Broken, discharged, broken, hairdryer, AH-HAH!"

[bigdamnhero]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

IF I'm playing a scientist or engineer in a sci-fi game' date=' I like to buy "Analyze: Alien tech" as one of my skills. Do I expect it to tell me everything about the peice of tech I'm studing? No. Do I expect to get an idea what it might be for? yes.[/quote']

Yeah, that's one of my favorite uses too.

[Cancer]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

I am reminded of a sci-fi story I read some 30-35 years ago ... the protagonist walks into what turns out to be a work area in the back of where aliens have set up a universal repair shop. A (non-human) worker there is puzzling over a color TV set, sees the protagonist, and initiates a very brief conversation:

 

"YOU! You're from this planet! Tell me: is the purpose of this device to bombard animal tissue with soft X-rays?"

 

"Uh, no..."

 

"THEN I KNOW WHAT IT'S FOR!!" and the alien tech sets to fixing the TV.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

Hmm.. I hadn't thought about it this way' date=' but looked at from a certain angle you could almost think of Analyze as the non-combat version of Find Weakness. [/quote']

Yes. At least some uses of Analyze, such as the one we are discussing. Some Analyze skills may not work like that, but will certainly have their own benefits.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

I am reminded of a sci-fi story I read some 30-35 years ago ... the protagonist walks into what turns out to be a work area in the back of where aliens have set up a universal repair shop. A (non-human) worker there is puzzling over a color TV set, sees the protagonist, and initiates a very brief conversation:

 

"YOU! You're from this planet! Tell me: is the purpose of this device to bombard animal tissue with soft X-rays?"

 

"Uh, no..."

 

"THEN I KNOW WHAT IT'S FOR!!" and the alien tech sets to fixing the TV.

Did the TV end up opening up a worm-hole to another universe or star system or what?

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

Good one!

Reminded me of the new Doctor Who episode "Dalek" when the doctor was looking at the collection of "uncategorized" alien weapons for something to fight the dalek with...

something on the order of "Broken, discharged, broken, hairdryer, AH-HAH!"

 

I'm not sure that would be a use of Analyse Alien Tech on the Doctor's part. More likely he's familiar with everything that was in the bucket from personal experience. The other guy probably had the Analyse Alien Tech skill, and just failed a roll when he put the hairdryer in the bin.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

I'm not sure that would be a use of Analyse Alien Tech on the Doctor's part. More likely he's familiar with everything that was in the bucket from personal experience. The other guy probably had the Analyse Alien Tech skill' date=' and just failed a roll when he put the hairdryer in the bin.[/quote']

On the one hand.... you're almost certainly correct.

On the other.... If you were trying to actually write up the Doctor for something less than a bazillion points, a lot of elements that would probably be better built with TONS of straight bought skills could be folded into various metaskills like the aforementioned Analyze Alien Tech.

 

Scriptwriters don't have to blanace points like we do

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

Yes. At least some uses of Analyze' date=' such as the one we are discussing. Some Analyze skills may not work like that, but will certainly have their own benefits.[/quote']In my Infinite Worlds HERO campaign, for example, investigation agents can be trained in Analyze: Evidence. When one of my players questioned the difference between Analyze: Evidence and Criminology or Deduction, I described the difference this way:

 

Criminology is mostly about gathering evidence. Analyze Evidence is mostly about interpreting evidence and making correct conclusions based on it. Deduction is mostly about making correct conclusions without evidence.

 

Imagine three characters, each with one-and-only-one of those Skills, coming upon a crime scene. A woman has been shot through the head and all her fingers have been broken.

 

Someone with Criminology would begin by looking for fingerprints, DNA left behind, determining the trajectory of the bullet that killed her, etc. He would excel at determining exactly how she died, but that might or might not lead to who did it.

 

Someone with Analyze Evidence generally wouldn't have a lot to do immediately at the crime scene. He'd wait until forensics had provided some test results, detectives had conducted some interviews, etc. Then he'd assemble those pieces like a puzzle, figuring out how the physical evidence ties in to the eyewitness accounts and the victims known associates, etc. Ultimately, he'd probably figure out who did it, even though he didn't personally get the fingerprints, etc.

 

The character with Deduction would simply look at the crime scene, and "know" that the woman was shot by her jilted husband or fiance, who then broke her ring finger by savagely taking the wedding/engagement ring from it. The other fingers were broken to make that less obvious. He knows this intuitively, but he has no proof of it that will hold up in court... he or someone else will still have to gather it.

[Dust Raven]

Re: The Analyze Skill

 

On the one hand.... you're almost certainly correct.

On the other.... If you were trying to actually write up the Doctor for something less than a bazillion points, a lot of elements that would probably be better built with TONS of straight bought skills could be folded into various metaskills like the aforementioned Analyze Alien Tech.

 

Scriptwriters don't have to blanace points like we do

 

Balancing The Doctor is easy, as is accomidating all of his seemingly limitless skills: PS: The Doctor and PS: Time Lord (both on a 30-) should pretty much cover everything.