why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

[Black Rose]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

If it helps any' date=' the largest public international group of metahumans in my game world is the Order of Saint George. They answer directly to the Roman Catholic Church, and are generally restricted to the security of the Vatican and other holy sites, missionary work, humanitarian aid, and covert opposition to supernatural menaces. I keep meaning to bring them more into the campaign.[/quote']

Speaking solely for myself, and with some, but limited, knowledge of whatever grievances varios peoples around the world might have with them, I have to say that I would be totally wow-ed by a Catholic superhero missionary*. Not that I'd ever see one, since I live in the US, and we're not exactly prime missionary territory for the Catholic Church. But I'm also a big fan of the Warrior Nun Areala title, even if I haven't read it in a while; I just loved the visual concepts - pretty sword-wielding nuns and spell-casting priests. Very cool.

 

 

* I'd also like to point out that, based on my own personal history, I seem to have a x1 1/2 Vulnerability to PRE Attacks from Committed Individuals, possibly even a low-end Mind Controlling Psych Lim. And if the Committed Individual is female, I'm pretty much screwed.

[Werehawk]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

I'm stuck using UNTIL because the other GM's in our shared universe are using it.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Of all the things in a typical supers universe that require suspension of disbelief - aliens, sorcerors, mythic gods, conceptual entities, and the violation of Newton's Laws - it tickles me that an effective United Nations seems to be one of the hardest ones for many people to swallow.

[sinanju]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Wow...do all American ambassadors get ritually slaughtered when they go to any other country on the planet as well?

 

Sorry, I'll drop it, this isn't the NGD.

 

Traditionally, spies (at least in wartime) can be summarily shot.

 

Sounds like his US government considers UNTIL agents acting without local (US) government approval to be spies. If the US considers the UN to be a hostile foreign power, that's a rather...drastic reaction, but not quite as far out as it may seem on first reading it.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Traditionally, spies (at least in wartime) can be summarily shot.

 

Sounds like his US government considers UNTIL agents acting without local (US) government approval to be spies. If the US considers the UN to be a hostile foreign power, that's a rather...drastic reaction, but not quite as far out as it may seem on first reading it.

Pretty much on the dot.

 

My US Government took a sterner approach in development following the Civil War (the Radical Republicans were successful at painting Johnson as a Copperhead and convicted him at his impeachment) and Teddy Roosevelt was elected instead of Wilson (who took a much harder line against foreign adventurism in domestic matters following the Zimmerman Letter)

 

America is still America, but with a few choice changes (Civil rights happened 50 years sooner because Wilson didn't roleback integration and Roosevelt was able to further his racial equality policies for another 8 years)

 

TB

[sinanju]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Of all the things in a typical supers universe that require suspension of disbelief - aliens' date=' sorcerors, mythic gods, conceptual entities, and the violation of Newton's Laws - it tickles me that an effective United Nations seems to be one of the hardest ones for many people to swallow. [/quote']

 

Well...you can handwave aliens (they might exist), sorcerors and mythic gods (it's magic!), and the violation of Newton's Laws (it's superscience--we just _think_ we know how the universe works).

 

But we're all familiar with how big, impersonal bureaucracies operate, especially those with an agenda. And there just ain't no superscience or magic that can convincingly change that.

 

hmmm....

 

Or maybe there is. Like Harry Seldon's psychohistory, for instance. John Q. Genius invents a rigorous scientific discipline for keeping an organization and its agents true to its founding goals and honest. Then it might work. But that would be such a shattering breakthrough in psychology that it would be THE focus of the story.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

IMO one of the greatest reasons for the success of the United States as a democratic nation, is that its founding fathers got so much right the first time when they designed its Constitution. It took plenty of horse trading and downright railroading to get it done, and it didn't turn out perfectly, but closer to it than any comparable document since.

 

If you could accept that something like that might have happened at the founding of the United Nations, rather than the patchwork of compromises and sellouts that we ended up with, everything else would fall into place.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

If you could accept that something like that might have happened at the founding of the United Nations' date=' rather than the patchwork of compromises and sellouts that we ended up with, everything else would fall into place.[/quote']

But, but who will I find to be behind the world's most vile and despicable conspiracies?

 

TB

[Lord Liaden]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

But, but who will I find to be behind the world's most vile and despicable conspiracies?

 

TB

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1131167

[TheRavenIs]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

I think that this might be a good time to update those that read my former posts. I am now using a version of UNIT, not called that but it is the same basic idea.

 

The EDF, Earth Defence Forces, has created a division that is designed to work on those threats that are both planetary and interplanetary in nature. They are called the 'Rangers', no it wasn't intended to be a Bab 5 referance but it now fits.

 

The first team will be operate mostly indepentant, but will be under the direct control of the Director of the EDF. Other teams will be added as the game goes on, but those will be NPC teams, unless one of the other three GM's deside they want to run a team.

[Yansuf]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

A few points.

 

1) I expect that UNTIL was patterned after various fictional agencies that were written about in the 1950's and 60's, when it was still hoped that the UN would be a force for good in the world. (In fact, a reasonable case can be made that it was until the mid 60's, but that is off topic.)

 

2) As I understood the original set up of UNTIL, it was formed under the auspices of the UN, but pretty much was not supervised by it. It (in theory) answered to the Security Council, in which the nuclear powers have vetoes, so they didn't feel threatened by it. (Since Israel has never admitted to having nuclear weapons, and has never detonated one, until India "joined the nuclear club" only the "big five" were nuclear powers.) I could supend my disbelief over that.

 

3) I did think it was absurd to have a major commanding it. I took the attitude of "whoever wrote this knows nothing about the military." This is a common problem in Hollywood for example (Babalyon 5 was a great show, but apparently no one involved with it knew anything about how armed forces are organized, or how they work); also some novelists clearly show that. (Including one of my favorites; I forgive her.)

 

4) Spies are not usually killed these days, although some countries do. Most put them in prison, and use them to swap for their own spies when they are caught. But some countries still do routinely execute spies.

 

5) The most severe sentence handed down for espionage in recent American history was for a man who gave secrets to Israel, which last time I checked, was not an enemy.

 

6) Throughout the 80's when UNTIL first was devised in Champions, the "Champions Universe" seemed very silver age to me.

[dmcfarland]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

I agree

 

Given the UN's track record with peace keeping operations I wouldn't want them to have a augmented police force in my country. Hell Syria was on the human rights commitee, as was Libia.

[vitruvian23]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

The UN as it exists in RL is not a body you would want to see with a well-funded covert/special operations agency independent of national governments, as opposed to perhaps consisting of personnel 'seconded' from certain national agencies. However, the UN as it exists in many Champions campaigns is not necessarily much like the RL UN, down to the charter and history of effectiveness (or lack thereof).

 

At the same time, even in RL the UN, or at least the UN Security Council, would be the logical body for a global or would-be global superteam to go to for political backing and approval if they wanted to be able to operate pretty freely in all member nations. This would avoid the issues DC is currently having all 'American' superheroes face when crossing over the borders of lots of other countries.

 

When it gets to the point that even Green Lantern, who technically gets any authority he can rightly claim from the Guardians and whose jurisdiction covers the entire region of space we're in, gets shot at when crossing into Russian airspace, you can see the appeal in getting a resolution from both the General Assembly and the Security Council that you can go after supervillains anywhere you want.

 

Actually, I kind of wonder, how do they know Green Lantern's secret identity isn't Russian?

 

And, of course, once a truly world-class superteam goes to the UN for approval and gets it, that immediately gives the UN itself more legitimacy and potentially a much easier path to intervention. For example, if there was a Justice League-level team that got permission to operate in all member countries and promised to at least listen to UN requests for action, it would have been very tempting to resolve that they should be the ones to inspect for and if necessary remove any weapons of mass destruction from certain countries. They would ipso facto be giving the UN the means to enforce its own resolutions, providing those resolutions were tailored to seem reasonable to the team membership.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

I agree

 

Given the UN's track record with peace keeping operations I wouldn't want them to have a augmented police force in my country. Hell Syria was on the human rights commitee, as was Libia.

 

Moderators have in fact enforced overly harsh setences for critiquing similiar comments.

 

If they hadn't, well, I'd be feeling a lot happier right now.

 

Suffice it to say that you are a troll. A troll for the cause of what those with power here seem to believe, but a troll nonetheless. Please quit associating with my hobby, it would make me a lot happier.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

The UN as it exists in RL is not a body you would want to see with a well-funded covert/special operations agency independent of national governments, as opposed to perhaps consisting of personnel 'seconded' from certain national agencies. However, the UN as it exists in many Champions campaigns is not necessarily much like the RL UN, down to the charter and history of effectiveness (or lack thereof).

 

At the same time, even in RL the UN, or at least the UN Security Council, would be the logical body for a global or would-be global superteam to go to for political backing and approval if they wanted to be able to operate pretty freely in all member nations. This would avoid the issues DC is currently having all 'American' superheroes face when crossing over the borders of lots of other countries.

 

When it gets to the point that even Green Lantern, who technically gets any authority he can rightly claim from the Guardians and whose jurisdiction covers the entire region of space we're in, gets shot at when crossing into Russian airspace, you can see the appeal in getting a resolution from both the General Assembly and the Security Council that you can go after supervillains anywhere you want.

 

Actually, I kind of wonder, how do they know Green Lantern's secret identity isn't Russian?

 

And, of course, once a truly world-class superteam goes to the UN for approval and gets it, that immediately gives the UN itself more legitimacy and potentially a much easier path to intervention. For example, if there was a Justice League-level team that got permission to operate in all member countries and promised to at least listen to UN requests for action, it would have been very tempting to resolve that they should be the ones to inspect for and if necessary remove any weapons of mass destruction from certain countries. They would ipso facto be giving the UN the means to enforce its own resolutions, providing those resolutions were tailored to seem reasonable to the team membership.

 

Ironically, the Justice League itself was at one time an adjunct to the United Nations, with authority to act in any member state and "embassies" set up around the world, including a permanent branch team in Paris. However, it seemed to be confined to dealing with "super" threats rather than common political ones, which avoided the doubtless-controversial step of becoming a general enforcement arm for the UN. IIRC the Avengers also had UN backing for a while, within similar restrictions.

 

UNTIL in the CU also seems to act solely against supervillains and superterrorist organizations which do not have the backing of a recognized member state, such as Doctor Destroyer and VIPER. These are forces that just about every nation (and more critically, all members of the Security Council) can agree have to be stopped, which IMO makes the agency's effectiveness less of a stretch to accept.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Moderators have in fact enforced overly harsh setences for critiquing similiar comments.

 

If they hadn't, well, I'd be feeling a lot happier right now.

 

Suffice it to say that you are a troll. A troll for the cause of what those with power here seem to believe, but a troll nonetheless. Please quit associating with my hobby, it would make me a lot happier.

 

If someone would like to explain how he was NOT trolling, I would appreciate it. Since apparently pointing out that he was is worth a warning.

[OddHat]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Speaking as a moderator, this thread is getting overly heated. Please keep it civil.

 

This is not directed at any one poster.

[Blade]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

I guess that when I read the first post, my thought was: "Why the $%&& not the UN?" The Interpol comment made sense, but I see UNTIL as more paramilitary than law enforcement, so we are back to a multinational team, and the UN makes some sense there. As far as whether the UN could be trusted with it or not, It Is A Fantasy World! If we can suspend disbelief long enough to accept superheroes, why not an ideal UN? Alternatively, the UN, and UNTIL, could be packed with intrigues and backstabbing, technology theft, and lions and tigers and bears, oh my... It's a game world, make of it what you like.

[Markdoc]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Also, attaching a multilateral, multinational force to the UN makes a heck of a lot more sense than, say... Bob's Bait and Tackle.

 

Seriously, despite the largely uninformed whining about the UN on various internet forums, it's still around and is still used by everybody for precisely the reason that no-one has been able to define a working alternative.

 

Simple question - if, for ideological reasons you *don't* want UNTIL attached to the UN - who *would* be responsible for it?

 

cheers, Mark

[OddHat]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Personally, I have no problem with UNTIL being part of the UN. My own campaign uses UNIT, so why not UNTIL?

 

As this is not the NGD, it's not the appropriate place to debate the flaws of the real world UN.

 

I can see putting UNTIL under NATO with a few tweaks, or changing the name to something like Europol and making it the EU's Super Security organization. Both would work similarly from a story POV.

[MrBunraku]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

If I ran a Champions game (which would be based on my own world), I'd use the BESTEST UN super group of all..

 

The T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents!!

 

 

Which kinda means I'd probably steal from UNTIL and dress the normal agents in red jackets.

 

And I was just looking over my old T.H.U.N.D.E.R. Agents 4th ed. HERO write-ups last night... *sigh*

 

Ed

[Maelstrom]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

The current President of the US is a black' date=' lesbian, and Jewish, while I'm putting my personal politics into the world. [/quote']

 

Currently, in my world, San Francisco is run by squirrels. Intelligent squirrels. With 10-13 int. The mayor, the board of supervisors; all squirrels. They ran on a platform of "Aren't we cute? Better garbage collection!"

 

They have the backing of the Chamber of Commerce -- and board meetings have never been so well-attended by the public as they are now.

[Maelstrom]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Also' date=' attaching a multilateral, multinational force to the UN makes a heck of a lot more sense than, say... Bob's Bait and Tackle.[/quote']

 

Yer a BB&T hater. I want to see Bob's Bait and Tackle with embassies around the world, and a diverse set of response options, including 2000-test line for those pesky aircraft and 30,000-test for landing light submarines in salt water.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

Currently, in my world, San Francisco is run by squirrels. Intelligent squirrels. With 10-13 int. The mayor, the board of supervisors; all squirrels. They ran on a platform of "Aren't we cute? Better garbage collection!"

 

They have the backing of the Chamber of Commerce -- and board meetings have never been so well-attended by the public as they are now.

Well, of course they're popular. They have on average at least 5 more INT than any SF politician that's run in the last 40 years.

 

TB

[zornwil]

Re: why the UNITED NATIONS? (for global super-agency)

 

It's not NGD...good humor so far, I am not complaining about the current posts, so just saying let's not start going down a path by way of response/retaliation or commentary.