Attack of Opportunity

[diocletianx]

Although the use of AOO in 3E can get cheezy, there is something heroic about the game effect. Enemies do not get to pass by character without being threatened if they move too close. The whole concept of the AOO makes some movement very dangerous and can create some very sticky situations.

 

I was wondering if anyone has considered how such a game effect would work in FH.

[Blackout]

Well, you could always save a phase. Or you could buy an attack that's triggered when an enemy crosses into your "threatened" zone...

[Agent X]

I like attack of opportunity. I think the cheezy thing to do is use game mechanics that prevents common-sense response from happening. The idea that some enemy running past you in the middle of a fight and you can't swing on him because you punched someone two seconds ago doesn't make sense to me.

[Nevenall]

I simulate it by letting character abort to an attack, but only in very limited circumstances.

I haven't used it much so I can't really say how well it works.

[Markdoc]

In general I am Ok with the non-exitence of AoO for two reasons.

 

The first is the ganging up effect, where two people attack one foe. Once the foe commits to an attack, attacker number two comes in swinging. That's realistic, and also good for the GM since it lets players multiple team his big bad guys (gives them a chance, rewards teamwork) and also lets the little bad guys multiple team players (teaches them a little respect).

 

The downside is where attacker numbr 2 does something bizarre ("I somersault over the guardian's head when he attacks Arkon, run across the temple and remove the Orb of Cheesy Plot Device from the altar!")

 

I have not come up with a good solution, since letting someone attack anyone in their attack zone is not inviting abuse, but unrealistic. You can try this yourself: get ahold of any shoot 'em up or slice 'em up video game and see how your effectiveness falls off when you have to suddenly swap your attack to a new, rapidly moving foe from the one you currently have your sights on.

 

If you really want an AoO, then I'd simply buy an triggered attack power, so the next time Norrleth the nimble vaults over the Guardian, it grabs hold of Arkon and uses him to bat Norrleth back down the steps into the great hall.....

 

Cheers, Mark

[sbarron]

Originally posted by Agent X

I like attack of opportunity. I think the cheezy thing to do is use game mechanics that prevents common-sense response from happening. The idea that some enemy running past you in the middle of a fight and you can't swing on him because you punched someone two seconds ago doesn't make sense to me.

 

Wouldn't common sense also dictate that once a defender decided to take a swing at a second attacter who happened to get too close, the first attacker should then be able to take a swipe at the defender for exposing himself to the first attacker? It just seems like there would be no end to this attacking spiral to me, if we go down this road.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I find myself in agreement with Sbarron and Markdoc. If a character is fighting someone already and they suddenly turn their awareness away to hit someone that is passing by, this opens up an opportunity for their current foe.

 

Reminds me of an Anime I saw once (can't remember the name) where something like that happened and the Heroes opponent smacks him one solid and yells "I'm your opponent! Pay attention!"

 

Now, then again, you do have the argument that in some genres, this is done quite often (Jackie Chan's movie Drunken Master II comes to mind) so I don't think its completely out of sorts...thus the suggestion above of having a PC purchase an attack ability on a Trigger, I find to be sound advice. I've had PC's with that sort of ability before and it tends to work quite well.

[diocletianx]

So maybe a combat manuever where you can abort to attack with a -2 OCV, -2 DCV and you lose your next phase leaving you open to take a beating from all combatants. Not a very appealing option, but when you have to stop that enemy from passing you by to trigger the summon demon ritual, it might be your only option.

[MarkusDark]

I actually find the AOO in D&D unrealistic. In D&D (and I could be wrong as I have not played much of 3E), everyone acts at the same time - you just have reflexes that determine who acts first in the phase (as per hero terms). So three people move by you while you are engaged in combat with someone else. You suddenly can swing your weapon four times faster to get off a hit on each of them?

 

And, as mentioned before, to be able to take a swing at someone as they pass while you are engaged in combat with someone else will open you up to the other's attack. I could see an AOO with a heavy penalty as if you just throw something out there while still concentrating on your main target.

 

However, as it is the rules of the game, I play by them.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Originally posted by diocletianx

So maybe a combat manuever where you can abort to attack with a -2 OCV, -2 DCV and you lose your next phase leaving you open to take a beating from all combatants. Not a very appealing option, but when you have to stop that enemy from passing you by to trigger the summon demon ritual, it might be your only option.

 

I wouldn't have much of a problem with this in my games, but I'd probably increase the DCV penalty to 1/2DCV instead of -2. This will even make a Skill Level monster think twice...

[Citizen Keen]

I don't have my copy of TUV handy right now, but tomorrow I'll post details.

 

However, TUV has rules for creating your own maneuvers. It wouldn't be hard to create a strike that you can abort to. I don't know what the OCV/DCV bonuses and penalties will be, but anyone with TUV can create HERO-legal AoOs.

[AnotherSkip]

Doesnt Jackie Chan have enough things to do in a round without adding on a triggered attack?

 

 

Of course in most of his movies he does have that ability anyways probably with a Side effects"looks Surprised"

[Agent X]

Originally posted by sbarron

Wouldn't common sense also dictate that once a defender decided to take a swing at a second attacter who happened to get too close, the first attacker should then be able to take a swipe at the defender for exposing himself to the first attacker? It just seems like there would be no end to this attacking spiral to me, if we go down this road.

No, it all depends on footwork. I'm not talking about a character standing still being open to attacks of opportunity. I assume the character staying in the hex is shifting back and forth and attempting to avoid being hit, mainly from forward facing, but rear facing as well.

 

I am talking about characters moving through the area immediately in front of an opponent and on to the next opponent and essentially ignoring that opponent. The way I handle it is competing dex rolls. If the character who has an attack of opportunity wins the dex contest, they can take a swipe at the moving character. This is much less cheesy than someone moving by 5 attackers with impunity because it's not their phase. It also gives an added benefit to defense maneuver if you allow that to eliminate certain or all attacks of opportunity. It also is not part of a vicious "attacking spiral."

 

Now, for a vicious "attacking spiral," I think anyone stuck in an entangle that, say, only entangles their legs and feet would be open to someone coming up from behind and pounding on them every segment until their endurance or the poor sap's stun ran out.

[cutsleeve]

new combat manuever

 

attack of opportunity: 1/2phase action, -2ocv -1/2dcv character may attack opponent who is oving through adjacent hex as character. Abort action.

 

This kind of combat manuever is about the best way to do it. Build this in TUM and either use it as a special combat manuever ala sweep or have characters but it. But i think AOO is not not realistic because people assume you are dodging around and moving constantly in combat and can attack many people at once while in melee combat you are moving alot alot of that movement is trying not to be hit by attackers. Especially an evenly skilled attacker if you take your attention away from an evenly skilled attacker or a higher skilled attacker he will not hesitate to attack in that split second. Now jacky Chan has a nice schtick where he usually does a distracting move then attacks someone else. while the other attacker is occupied with a ladder, fish, or getting up Jacky Chan smacks the hell outta someone else.

[Killer Shrike]

Instead of aborting to attacks, instead look at what AoO do in 3e.

 

They basically encourage characters to stay in melee once they are stuck in and penalizes them for trying to do anything other than fight the closest opponent before moving on to the next closest opponent.

 

It actually hampers PCs far more than helps them because a PC will fight many more opponents during his career that are resolved in the game mechanix, because PCs are the focus of the action.

 

D&D 3e is a very short ranged combat system. The range of combat is around 30 feet, which is a mere 5 hexes in the HERO System. D&D also, under the surface, expects most fighting to happen in a enclosed enviroment, like a dungeon or a castle or a tavern, etc. HEROs does not share this assumption.

 

Personally I think AoO are a bad idea; if you want to take potshots at people to mimic some kind of "tactically sound/unsound" action set, just buy speed only usable to take actions in a set list of circumstances, or a triggered attack with a generous reset condition, etc.

 

Personally, I think it best to not try to convert Mechanix from 1 system to the other, but rather to focus on the 'feel' and tropes of one game and reexpress them in the 2nd system you are converting to.

 

IMO YMMV

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Instead of aborting to attacks, instead look at what AoO do in 3e.

 

They basically encourage characters to stay in melee once they are stuck in and penalizes them for trying to do anything other than fight the closest opponent before moving on to the next closest opponent.

 

It actually hampers PCs far more than helps them because a PC will fight many more opponents during his career that are resolved in the game mechanix, because PCs are the focus of the action.

 

D&D 3e is a very short ranged combat system. The range of combat is around 30 feet, which is a mere 5 hexes in the HERO System. D&D also, under the surface, expects most fighting to happen in a enclosed enviroment, like a dungeon or a castle or a tavern, etc. HEROs does not share this assumption.

 

Personally I think AoO are a bad idea; if you want to take potshots at people to mimic some kind of "tactically sound/unsound" action set, just buy speed only usable to take actions in a set list of circumstances, or a triggered attack with a generous reset condition, etc.

 

Personally, I think it best to not try to convert Mechanix from 1 system to the other, but rather to focus on the 'feel' and tropes of one game and reexpress them in the 2nd system you are converting to.

 

IMO YMMV

Have you considered how silly it is for someone to run right past you and you have to act like a chess piece that has already moved?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Agent X

Have you considered how silly it is for someone to run right past you and you have to act like a chess piece that has already moved?

 

Have you considered how realistic it is that people can only react so fast? Sadly, people dont move at the speed of thought.

 

If you want to stop people from moving past you, make sure you are faster than them (more SPD/DEX) and/or hold actions to intervene.

 

Having played many team sports, fenced in "melees", done close combat training, and been in many fights I know very well that you cant always react to everything that is going on around you.

 

The AoO rules are a stricture built into 3e to encourage melee/HtH fighting because that is what the game focuses on. It consistently penalizes ranged attacks and anything out of the ordinary and consistently awards monotonous Roll-a-d20 hth attacks.

 

There is no need or reason to shoehorn such a concept into the HERO System. IMO. YMMV.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Have you considered how realistic it is that people can only react so fast? Sadly, people dont move at the speed of thought.

 

If you want to stop people from moving past you, make sure you are faster than them (more SPD/DEX) and/or hold actions to intervene.

 

Having played many team sports, fenced in "melees", done close combat training, and been in many fights I know very well that you cant always react to everything that is going on around you.

 

The AoO rules are a stricture built into 3e to encourage melee/HtH fighting because that is what the game focuses on. It consistently penalizes ranged attacks and anything out of the ordinary and consistently awards monotonous Roll-a-d20 hth attacks.

 

There is no need or reason to shoehorn such a concept into the HERO System. IMO. YMMV.

That's why I advocate a dex contest. If you read my earlier posts you will notice I never bring up 3E DnD. I don't even play that system. It's something I picked up on that it was exceedingly odd that characters could run or fly right under each other's noses and no one could take a swipe at each other because of the turn/segment/phase system. I am advocating a very restrained version of attack of opportunity compared to what I believe you are describing in 3E DnD.

[cutsleeve]

opponent capabilities

 

one major flaw in D&D and D20 is that it doesnt take into consideration how well trained an opponent is. An opponent who is as good as you are is not going to let you swing at a passerby. Now some people may think well im moving around and dodging and maybe even spinning and ducking and rolling in combat why cant i swing at someone who is passing by. simple answer because you are being attacked by a person who is trying to kill you and if they are even in capability or better then you you will not have the opportunity to do so. If you do take that swing he will hit you while you are not paying attention to him. more then likely you are dodging and bouncing and basically dancing in combat to keep an equally skilled opponent from hitting you. Not to make you able to hit everyone around you.

 

The Truth Now.

 

D&D is a mass combat engine thats what it does best it reduces combat down to a brawl. attacks off opportunity only work in the capacity that they do when there are many many people around you in combat all trying to kill everyone around you. It doesnt make sense when you have only 4 combatants in a wide open spaces. that doesnt mean it doesnt work it means it doesnt make as much sense when compared to the sense it makes in the capacity of battle feild simulation. Thats right a battle field thats what it does well Mass Combat. Not one on one low density multi member combats.

 

Hope ths clarifies some things if not just disreguard this post.

[austenandrews]

I could see a specific maneuver for this effect. The player decides his character is going to "guard" his area and engage anyone who enters. The concept already exists with Suppression Fire. Maybe build it something like an ongoing Sweep?

 

-AA

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by austenandrews

I could see a specific maneuver for this effect. The player decides his character is going to "guard" his area and engage anyone who enters. The concept already exists with Suppression Fire. Maybe build it something like an ongoing Sweep?

 

-AA

 

Too indiscriminant IMO. You can already decide to guard an area and just hold your action to do so.

[austenandrews]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

Too indiscriminant IMO. You can already decide to guard an area and just hold your action to do so.

 

Can't you say the same thing about Suppression Fire?

 

-AA

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by austenandrews

Can't you say the same thing about Suppression Fire?

 

-AA

 

Suppression Fire has some built in assumptions IIRC, such as a weapon capable of Autofire, and an abstracted method of hitting people.

[JEChristgau]

Man, this has really got out of hand.

 

You don't need AoOs in Hero because of one simple fact that's been left out of the whole conversation: D&D 3e rounds are 6 seconds long! Each combatant gets their own 6 seconds to act in each 6 second round. Makes no sense, but that's the system. That's one of the reasons why AoOs exist. It's rediculous to say that I'm just gonna stand there while that guy runs past me during those six seconds. DEX also has very little to do with when you act in a round, it's all based on your initialive roll (which is simply influenced by DEX, but there are tons of other factors that can be involved).

 

This is so drastically different than Hero that this discussion becomes moot.

 

One way to look at AoOs is that they are the D&D 3e way to simulate the better combat and phase system of Hero. Since in Hero you'd probably get at least one chance to act during those long, drawn-out, six seconds.

 

Something else that's been missrepresented here is that D&D 3e scale is 5' squares, Hero is 2m hexes. This is effectivly equivalent so you can say 1 hex = 1 square. I know it's not exact, but come on.

 

An AoO is generated when someone does something that causes them to drop their guard. Moving past someone does not always cause one. Tumbling, for example, can prevent one. Also, you can be so skilled that you get to take more than one AoO per round (Combat Reflexes). AoOs in 3e are complicated even though the concept is simple.

 

Anyway, hope some of this helps to clear up the differences. I personally don't feel that they are needed. I also feel that if you think they are, then do them with the triggered power approach. That's the only one I'd allow since it's pure Hero goodness.

 

ttfn

[CorpCommander]

Originally posted by MarkusDark

I actually find the AOO in D&D unrealistic. In D&D (and I could be wrong as I have not played much of 3E), everyone acts at the same time - you just have reflexes that determine who acts first in the phase (as per hero terms).

 

That could be the original intent. However, since Hero is a very highly controled gaming system with great interdependency and interlocking systems and D&D is basically a food processor of ideas, unconnected but on the same plate - the original intent is often ignored. For example, my D20 Samurai gets an obscene amount of FREE opportunity attacks when people do specific things 1" away. i think it is something like 5 attacks but it could be 9 (GM has my sheet - he keeps them so that when players don't show up someone else can run the character.) Anyway the point is, the entire combat system in 3E is totally broken as far as I am concerned.

 

On page 235 of Fred there is a good mechanism for an Opportunity attack of sorts. Even in historical wargames, opportunity attacks require the unit to be in a defensive ready mode and position. The rule on holding action in Fred does something similar. I think it's pretty close to what you need, no? Or do you want free attacks? If so, well then, burn heretic!!! your Stoning will be at dawn!