djday38 Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Sentinel is a good option, but his name clashes with one of the biggest hero teams in the new CU. However, he is a cool character that I like, but in another thread someone mentioned a character called Vanguard who pops up as a referance in the CU book who might just be the guy we are looking for. Any chance Darren could tell us a little bit about this guy? and if he will eventually be covered in DH or a silver age book? thks in advance Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamo Posted June 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 The code vs killing that we know so well was a consequence of the comics code that lasted mostly up until the early '90s. Man, do I hate the comics code. So many good writers hamstrung for so many years. The moral and thematic development of the medium stunted for literally decades! Thankfully it all started to unravel eventually and by the 80s, books like Punisher, Frank Miller's Batman and Watchmen were making superhero comics truly worthwhile works on a creative level again. Still, so much time lost. Just imagine where things might be now if the shackles had been off the writers and artists all that time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaratustra Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Still, so much time lost. Just imagine where things might be now if the shackles had been off the writers and artists all that time... All superhero comics would have been banned and we'd have to play the Archie and Peanuts RPGs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Chaos Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Actually not all comics abided by that code during the 80s. Most of those that didn't aren't here anymore. Elementals is a good example of this as they argued heavily in comic on how silly it was to let villians go free. Sadly Elementals is no longer around to enjoy a more liberal writing atmosphere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 thoughts Well, I've always been a big Captain America fan... my gripes as a Teen weren't with Superman's straight arrowness nearly as much as his power levels made him so immune to everything (barring the occaisional green rock) that he bored me to tears. They later down powered him, but by then I was a confirmed Marvel Zombie. Later I grew to like him again thanks to the 'Animated Adventures' in the 90's. As for the comic book code authority...that was self imposed because of a society wide paranoia brought on in part by a quack psychologist (My opinion only) . I believe at the time, it was the right move or society might have destroyed the comic industry entirely. It also did help form the superhero genre many of us know and love today. Then again, I'm a fan of Silver and Bronze ages. The 'Iron age' leaves me cold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Yamo Man, do I hate the comics code. So many good writers hamstrung for so many years. The moral and thematic development of the medium stunted for literally decades! Thankfully it all started to unravel eventually and by the 80s, books like Punisher, Frank Miller's Batman and Watchmen were making superhero comics truly worthwhile works on a creative level again. Still, so much time lost. Just imagine where things might be now if the shackles had been off the writers and artists all that time... Yep, we sure missed out back in the "before time" on bikini clad smart a$$ed teenagers who throw cosmic fits and have pre-marital sex, complaining about their lives and getting in fights with villains who aren't particularly concerned with anything other than fighting the "heroes." There isn't much in the Comics Code, as it was enforced in the 70s & 80s, that a good writer couldn't write around and tell a fine story without resorting to T&A, the macabre, and other baser instincts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Re: Just a theory Originally posted by Hermit ... Then, the players grow a bit, and start wanting to play their 'own' creations... and that's great. However, it sometimes (not always) leads to a snobbery towards 'clones', even ones with some drastic changes. "You want to play a guy with claws and quick healing? GEE, let me guess, he's Canadian too?" .... Many truths here. However... Have you ever tried to create a truly original character? After nearly seventy years of superheroes (thousands of years if you count the likes of Hercules), what hasn't been done? This became clear to me when I gamed with a nephew who took it as a quest to create a character that I hadn't ever seen before (I collected comics for decades). No matter what he did, I could always identify a Marvel or DC character who "was just like that". He even tried a character who had super-strong jaws and Universal Digestion ("Just like Matter-Eater Lad!"; "Arrrrggh!!"). So I see no problem with "clones". Most of my characters are pretty straightforward, and I even like to describe them as looking like some actor ("Jack Hammer looks like Jesse Ventura"). Helps get a handle on him/her. I always like to put a twist on it to make it at least somewhat unique, though. The only PC I have that I can't recall a comic-book version of is one that could absorb energy and use it in various ways. However, if he used too much energy he would start dying. He needed absorbed energy the way normals need food, but at a vastly accelerated time rate (he would die within a few minutes if depleted). He is sort of a living capacitor or battery. I'm sure this has been done, but I don't know where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlord Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 I sorta got the impression that the current Empyrean 'prince whatshisname' fills the Superman archetype in CU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 The thing with Supes is, he doesnt fit an archetype; he straddles several archetypes. He is the penultimate Flying Speedster Energy Projector Patriot Brick! As such he doesnt fit easily in the point ranges of most Champions games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Yamo Still, so much time lost. Just imagine where things might be now if the shackles had been off the writers and artists all that time... Yeah. We might have had all the crapola that we got in the 90's in the 70's, and it might have died with Disco and no one would do anything even remotely like it again, due to association. hmmm... I would like that world. :-) I'm one who gave up a lot of comic reading in the late eigties during the Dark Knight/Watchmen inspired garbage *, and Image (yech, bleh bleh yuck). Morrison's run on the JLA and Kurt's Astro City brought me back- proving to me that there were writers who wanted to write what I wanted to read. * Dark Knight and Watchmen were brilliant. The stuff that imitated them is what I am referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSword Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden The problem with creating the top NPC powerhouse in a game world, is that when he's around he detracts from the PCs who are supposed to be the focus of the story. It's easier to write a way around that in a comic book than to deal with that reality in a role-playing game. OTOH an Elder Statesman of the superhero community can be a fun element to mix into a game; someone with the prestige to call the young bucks to task and remind them of what they're really fighting for. A year or two ago Cartoon Network had a series of pilot shows on and the viewers choose the next cartoon they would produce. The end product was they choose the Grim&Evil show. One of the cartoons though was about a superhero organization, and one of the heroes was the old guy from the previous age, he was pretty much a superman clone, except at age 70 or so. Needless to say the end of the show was this old guy going down and showing the young pups how to do it. It was a fairly humourous concept, but I don't know how well it would fit in the Champions Universe if you knew that if you lost some powerful older superhero would swoop in and save the day. Depending on the genre an elder powerful superhero who has retired to a life of politics, debating, activism, philantropy, etc, can act as a way to ease people's minds to metahumans. On the other hand, Superman has done several things (the robots in the comics, and Legacy in the animated series) to hurt people's trust in him and hence problaby the superhero community in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Starlord I sorta got the impression that the current Empyrean 'prince whatshisname' fills the Superman archetype in CU. Prince Archon is better identified with either Ikaris or Orion as the Empyrians are very much like the Eternals and New Gods. Neither of those characters is very Superman-like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 In responce about Superman, I dont really see a strong one in the CU. And he also fills one more role in comics besides the "ultimate powerhouse" and the "Patriot". Superman is the ultimate selfless hero. He worries about who he can save, and what he could do more, at the same time, worrying if he is doing to much. KB got that aspect of him dead on in Samaritin from Astro City. Start: Old Campaign Ramblings In my last Champs game, I had supers appear (wildcardlike) when the game started in 91. The first superhero in the world (NPC) was a minibrick EP (solar powers) named Native Sun. Somewhat patriotic. Top of the heap powers wise. Spent his entire life and all his time trying to help others. His undergoal in becoming a superhero and he worked behind the scenes to push this agenda as well, was to motivate all those with large powers to be costumed crime fighters (or villians) in the four color mode- he saw this as a way for people to accept those with powers because the worked in a previously seen social niche (even if fiction). It was also the GM handwaving that a modern creation of Superheroes would end up four color. He was my "Superman" Late in the life of the campaign, the team name was Watchtower (base on the moon, years before the JLA- Arrgh). Each player had two characters (we rotated). And all of the social niches were filled by PCs. Native Sun - selfless hero, and toughest guy on the block. The Marshall - The Patriot & the Female Hero Jack Diamond - Urban Avenger Psyche - The tortured background Telepath Ballistic - The Supersuit Scientist The Shih - The Supermage / Mysterious guy Magnetite - The young girl coming into her powers. Pheonix - The Sidekick (of the Marshall). Bayoushi - The God Amoung us. Humoungous - The Bestial Brick White Dragon - The Martial Artist/stealth guy Pheaduex - (Cat supersuit) the team clown. End: Old Campaign Ramblings And the reason I bring this up, other than to give out old war stories, is in at least one case, having the "superman" yardstick as an NPC worked. All the players understood what was going on, and no one minded. The fact that as the campaign had run for years they realized they were filling the social niches of classic characters, they were rather enthusiastic about the whole thing. During the huge multiparter that kicked off the new line up of the team (resetting the comic to issue one with a new line up) the above team went toe to toe with some of the nastiest villians in my world, and no one felt bad that Native Sun was a ways out trading blows with Doctor Destroyer, while they fought Viperia, Menton, Mechanon and Archimago and others. When Native Sun went down, and Dr D left, everyone was shellshocked. So if done right (and with mature players that I am thankful that I have) that kind of thing does not cause a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 They had to come up with a new "archetype" for him over in M&M. They call it "an Original." After Big Blue... and the Big Red Cheese, and the Ivory Icon. So I gater Big Blue = Supes, Big Red Cheese = Flash, but who's the Ivory Icon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Mhoram Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Killer Shrike So I gater Big Blue = Supes, Big Red Cheese = Flash, but who's the Ivory Icon? Given Sentinel's costume is mostly white, and he is Iconic for SAS I would assume that was Sentinel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 The Big Red Cheese is Captain Marvel! No Holy Moley for you! The Ivory Icon is my third in the red-white-and blue trilogy. It's the revamped Alan Moore Supreme. Yes, but I believe Killer Shrike was victim of a typo. After all, the Flash is the Big Red Cheese Whiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempuswolf Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Yes, but I believe Killer Shrike was victim of a typo. After all, the Flash is the Big Red Cheese Whiz chuckle:p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 Must cleanse mind. Must cleanse mind. Well, he did appear in Whiz Comics #1. Captain Marvel appeared in Flash Comics #1. Captain Marvel was supposed to appear in Fawcett's Whiz Comics #1 but it wasn't... quick enough to beat National's Whiz Comics. In that version, Captain Marvel would have been Captain Thunder. So, there is a bit of a tie to the two characters in the name of magazine titles and color concept. So, maybe their nicknames should be closely connected too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Originally posted by Morningstar70 Uh huh... one problem. Fantastic Four roast. The Whizzer. Add cheese. Bad thoughts. Bad thoughts. The Whizzer is a horrible name. Sounds like someone needs Depends undergarments. However, that character should be the Big Yellow Cheese Whiz. [Agent X smiles as he stubbornly punishes his fellow posters.] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Re: Re: Just a theory Originally posted by Arthur Many truths here. However... Have you ever tried to create a truly original character? Oh, agreed... I've even seen some struggle so hard to be original they ended up having no fun at all, thus losing track of why we're playing in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Just a theory Originally posted by Hermit Oh, agreed... I've even seen some struggle so hard to be original they ended up having no fun at all, thus losing track of why we're playing in the first place. The trick isn't in building an original character. It is in building a compelling character - one that elicits interest beyond the nature of power construction. Often, a character whose powers and purposes don't look at all original can be quite interesting because of the character's origin and the character's supporting cast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Sitting in the choir here. Well, again, agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Re: Sitting in the choir here. Originally posted by Hermit Well, again, agreed. Maybe one of these days I will convince you that 4th Ed Champions were better than the 5E versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hermit Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 I say thee Nay! Originally posted by Agent X Maybe one of these days I will convince you that 4th Ed Champions were better than the 5E versions. Never! Well, maybe... but not today Back on Topic, I do have an NPC Superman type in my game named Mega Man (No relation). He's been around since WW2, just growing more and more powerful...and less human. He no longer needs to sleep, his hearing is so accute he can hear cries for helps for miles... etc. I plan to remove him soon.... in a suitably dramatic way and see which if any players rise to fill the void. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 Coming in late... The problem with Supes is that he doesn't just have the "Code of the Hero," PsychLim, he also has the "Heroically Stupid" PsychLim. His raw power gets him through so often that he seldom stops to think until it's brutally obvious that he has to. He throws himself into situations at the drop of a hat, and sometimes gets in over his head for it, when a little thought would have samed him a lot of pain and trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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