How to block the "unblockable" punch?

[Trebuchet]

We've all seen or used it: The speedster or high-level MA built with a AoE 1 Hex Accurate "Punch" that there is no way for the target to counter except DFC and/or Flying Dodge. But in the source material, such ultra-fast types are often fighting someone just as skilled as they are who somehow manages to block every such "unblockable" blow.

 

So how do you build the counter to this type of attack when a Block cannot stop AoE attacks? I considered Force Wall or Damage Reduction with a "Blocking hands" SFX and some Limitations, but that seems awkward, and the FW version fails utterly if the attacker "breaks" it. Has someone got a better way?

[OzMike]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

How about extra PD or rPD, only vs one attacker? If a Martial Block can be defined as taking on the chin, surely extra defenses can represent ducking and diving?

 

Failing that how about desolid? You know, like that UMA power?

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

I was looking for something that represented a more "active" defense - literally blocking every attempted hit from Mr. Speedy's AoE 1 Hex Accurate or Autofire X10 strike. I'm not looking for something that would protect the character when he gets hit by a train (or a Brick). Both extra PD and/or Desolid just somehow feel wrong, at least to me.

[input.jack]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Actually, if the attack is defined as an AOE 1 Hex "Punch", then by SPFX its still Blockable, isnt it? And one successful Block roll should negate the attack as normal.

 

Give your Speedster about 10 PSL's with Blocking in their Multipower. That way, penalties for Autofire attacks and such dont wear the Speedster's Block chances down as fast.

[Hermit]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Perhaps this would work?

 

42 "Your 'secret strike' is no secret to me, fool." -Dispel Cheesily Advantaged Martial Arts moves 15d6 (Any Martial Art FX, one at at time (+1/4), No Range (-1/2) PLUS Lightning Reflexes +4 only with Dispel

 

EDIT: Hmm still sort of expensive...maybe make a Requires Analyze Style Roll or something

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Actually' date=' if the attack is defined as an AOE 1 Hex "Punch", then by SPFX its still Blockable, isnt it? And one successful Block roll should negate the attack as normal.[/quote']I think that would depend on the GM. Many might agree that the attack's sfx as a punch should allow Blocking it; others might note that the attacker's Power is bought as "Unblockable Punch" and say that sfx trumps the defender's Block attempt.

 

Give your Speedster about 10 PSL's with Blocking in their Multipower. That way, penalties for Autofire attacks and such dont wear the Speedster's Block chances down as fast.

That's got some definite merit. Call that "Impenetrable Defenses" and laugh at the "Unblockable Punch."

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Perhaps this would work?

 

42 "Your 'secret strike' is no secret to me, fool." -Dispel Cheesily Advantaged Martial Arts moves 15d6 (Any Martial Art FX, one at at time (+1/4), No Range (-1/2) PLUS Lightning Reflexes +4 only with Dispel

 

EDIT: Hmm still sort of expensive...maybe make a Requires Analyze Style Roll or something

It'd be cheap enough as an MP slot anyway. The trick would be to know when to switch the MP to it. Then use regular martial arts to fight the old fashioned way. A Limitation of "Only vs Martial Arts Powers SFX" should make it pretty inexpensive. That way it could stop a Power, but not a regular old punch or Martial Maneuver.

 

I should note that my PC Zl'f has just such an attack; specifically used for hitting very high DCV opponents like MAs with lots of Levels. It's only 7d6, but I want her to be able to counter such attacks as well.

[Fenixcrest]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

IIRC, an AoE can be bought with Blockable/Deflectable. I think it's a -1/4 limitation. Perhaps the GM might rule that "accurate punch" type attacks, unless possessing proper rationale, must have this on them?

[Bloodstone]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

To make an Unblockable punch you could use Indirect, in which case Hardened is the defense you are looking for. (I believe this useage is in both UMA and the Ultimte Brick)

 

AOE 1 Hex is not, by defualt, blockable. But if it's being used to represent some type of super fast and accurate punch, the GM is well within his rights to make it Blockable in the interest of dramatic sense. Especially when the SFX match up...

 

That said, there's always limited Desolidification. Or an Instant PD Force Wall represneting an Ultimate Block/Perfect Defense type maneuver.

[Enforcer84]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

We've all seen or used it: The speedster or high-level MA built with a AoE 1 Hex Accurate "Punch" that there is no way for the target to counter except DFC and/or Flying Dodge. But in the source material, such ultra-fast types are often fighting someone just as skilled as they are who somehow manages to block every such "unblockable" blow.

 

So how do you build the counter to this type of attack when a Block cannot stop AoE attacks? I considered Force Wall or Damage Reduction with a "Blocking hands" SFX and some Limitations, but that seems awkward, and the FW version fails utterly if the attacker "breaks" it. Has someone got a better way?

I've always liked the Forcewall option because when it's breached it "fails" sure you get to deduct the damage; but your "Block" failed and now you are vulnerable.

 

IMO anyway.

[OddHat]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

If I wanted an "Unblockable" punch made blockable (and I'd think a bit before interfering with someone's schtick like that) I'd do it one of two ways:

 

1) Don't let the character build a 1 Hex Accurate or Indirect Unblockable punch. Let him buy 10 extra OCV levels with that punch only, up to or past the top OCV normally permitted in the game. Now it's almost unblockable vs most foes, but blockable to a tiny few.

 

2) Go for the Hardened PD Force Wall Option, Requires a Skill Roll ("Block").

 

I don't like just waving the unblockable nature of AOE attacks just for special effects if I told the character that this was how I wanted an unblockable punch built in my campaign. If I told the character at the time he built the attack that it could still be blocked, it would not be a problem.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

If I wanted an "Unblockable" punch made blockable (and I'd think a bit before interfering with someone's schtick like that) I'd do it one of two ways:

 

1) Don't let the character build a 1 Hex Accurate or Indirect Unblockable punch. Let him buy 10 extra OCV levels with that punch only, up to or past the top OCV normally permitted in the game. Now it's almost unblockable vs most foes, but blockable to a tiny few.

 

2) Go for the Hardened PD Force Wall Option, Requires a Skill Roll ("Block").

 

I don't like just waving the unblockable nature of AOE attacks just for special effects if I told the character that this was how I wanted an unblockable punch built in my campaign. If I told the character at the time he built the attack that it could still be blocked, it would not be a problem.

As I said earlier in this thread, it's my own character Zl'f that has such an attack. I haven't encountered a villain or NPC with it. But I felt it was only reasonable for someone who can literally catch and deflect bullets to be able block high-speed (Autofire or AoE 1 Hex Accurate) punches. That certainly doesn't preclude an opponent who can't get past her hand-to-hand defenses; in an adventure last year Mike Surbrook's Wong Fei Hong from Ninja Hero beat the crap out of Zl'f without ever using such an attack. He did it purely with higher combat values. (Hey, at least she hit him during the fight. Once.)

 

And of course, it's also perfectly reasonable for one of my co-GMs to build a villain who can block her high-speed AoE 1 Hex Accurate attack.

[OddHat]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

And of course, it's also perfectly reasonable for one of my co-GMs to build a villain who can block her high-speed AoE 1 Hex Accurate attack.

 

If you're OK with it, groovy. Were I GMing your character, and I'd told you that your 1 Hex Accurate attack was unblockable, it would be. I might make a rare exception when you were up against a speedster or an extraordinary Martial Artist. However, letting that punch be (almost always) unblockable would be part of the deal I'd made with you when I OKed the concept and specific build.

 

If I just said "this blow almpst always hits" rather than "this blow is almost unblockable", I'd feel freer to let SFX trump the mechanics.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

If you're OK with it, groovy. Were I GMing your character, and I'd told you that your 1 Hex Accurate attack was unblockable, it would be. I might make a rare exception when you were up against a speedster or an extraordinary Martial Artist. However, letting that punch be (almost always) unblockable would be part of the deal I'd made with you when I OKed the concept and specific build.

 

If I just said "this blow almpst always hits" rather than "this blow is almost unblockable", I'd feel freer to let SFX trump the mechanics.

It's an axiom of Hero that if there's an attack, there is also a (generally cheaper) defense against it. Her attack should not be unstoppable; likewise Zl'f or another character should be able to devise (within the boundaries of both character's concepts, of course) a defense against that particular attack.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Rather than blocking, use a desolid dodge, with the desolid being affected by non-area effect attacks. The superpunch comes in, the character dodges.

[OddHat]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

It's an axiom of Hero that if there's an attack' date=' there is also a (generally cheaper) defense against it. [u']Her[/u] attack should not be unstoppable; likewise Zl'f or another character should be able to devise (within the boundaries of both character's concepts, of course) a defense against that particular attack.

 

Both true, and agreed. The concern is in whether I actually told my player, when he or she asked how to make an unblockable punch, "Do it this way". As GM I'm free to make a character who can block that punch anyway, and it is in genre. However, if I told that player "add these advantages to get an unblockable attack", the defense (within concept) should not be described as a Block. The obvious exceptions would include another speedster or a martial artist with "Unbreakable Block" as one of his powers.

 

If I said from the start "this attack can sometimes be blocked", it's not a problem.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Now we're debating metagaming concepts rather than trying to work out the build for the desired defense. A bit of a derailment there; although I do enjoy the discussion as a whole.

[Gary]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Buy an extra limb or even an arm as a follower who always holds its action. Then the follower can always dive in front of the 'unblockable' blow and take the damage for you.

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Buy an extra limb or even an arm as a follower who always holds its action. Then the follower can always dive in front of the 'unblockable' blow and take the damage for you.

Now that's original. Kinda creepy, but original.

 

I'd need a whole slew of followers for an extended battle. Do I have to give them combat pay?

[OddHat]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Now we're debating metagaming concepts rather than trying to work out the build for the desired defense. A bit of a derailment there; although I do enjoy the discussion as a whole.

 

For build, I'd go with the Personal Force wall Requires a Skill (Block) Roll I mentioned earlier/

[Trebuchet]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

For build' date=' I'd go with the Personal Force wall Requires a Skill (Block) Roll I mentioned earlier/[/quote']I'm leaning that way myself, perhaps with a "Must be aware of attack" and maybe a "Only vs strike sfx" to cover both Martial Maneuvers and Powers built to simulate such attacks.

[Susano]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Force Wall versus PD defined as Blocking. I put one in NH.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Hmm.

 

Well, first off, if I were presented with that construct, I'd respond "You realize that that's an Undodgeable Punch, not an Unblockable Punch, right?" Using TUMA as a basis, 'unblockable' would be Indirect (but could be dodged), while AE Hex Accurate would be 'undodgeable' (but could be blocked). IMG, of course.

 

So, for the sake of my response, I'll tweak it to an Indirect AE HEX Accurate attack ... which is a 3/4 advantage total, which is pretty darn steep all things considered.

 

There's already a wide variety of 'super-skills' listed on the thread, though (the Desolid-style dodge being my personal favorite), and even beyond Dive for Cover or Flying Dodge ... an attack with that kind of Advantage is going to be unavoidable (or nearly so), but isn't likely to do as much damage as a standard slapdown, or is going to be a heavily limited desperation move (I know, metagame concepts ...).

 

I'd say let it be virtually unstoppable, since the other guy can always swing back (probably for as much, if not more, damage), run away, or go with the 'he who lives by the sword dies by the sniper rifle' technique and simply not hand-to-hand with the Unavoidable Strike guy.

[David Johnston]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Of course the real way to make an "unblockable" punch is to buy it as energy blast. The block manuever doesn't work against energy blasts. Then you run into someone with Missile Deflection and behold they have discovered the counter-move.

[OddHat]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Of course the real way to make an "unblockable" punch is to buy it as energy blast. The block manuever doesn't work against energy blasts. Then you run into someone with Missile Deflection and behold they have discovered the counter-move.

 

You buy it as an Invisible Indirect 1 Hex Accurate Energy Blast, and you deliver it from the Speed Zone.