How to block the "unblockable" punch?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

You buy it as an Invisible Indirect 1 Hex Accurate Energy Blast' date=' and you deliver it from the Speed Zone. [/quote']

 

Nah, just use Extra-Dimensional movement and go to a dimension where the Block mechanic doesn't exist.

[OddHat]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Nah' date=' just use Extra-Dimensional movement and go to a dimension where the Block mechanic doesn't exist. [/quote']

 

Munch repped.

[Susano]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

How about just reaching over and knocking the guy's miniature over?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

How about just reaching over and knocking the guy's miniature over?

 

"We're in an indefensible position, surrounded by enemies on all sides ... quick, drop a kitty treat on the map so we can scramble the minis and conveniently 'forget' where we were!"

[Susano]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

"We're in an indefensible position' date=' surrounded by enemies on all sides ... quick, drop a kitty treat on the map so we can scramble the minis and conveniently 'forget' where we were!"[/quote']

 

Sounds like "Summon Giant Cat" to me.

[Dr.Device]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

I've used variations on the following for a "Block Anything" power.

 

You Call That Unblockable?: Force Wall (12 PD/12 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (75 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2)

 

If you want it versus PD attacks only, you can go with:

 

You Call That Unblockable?: Force Wall (17 PD), Hardened (+1/4), Transparent to ED Attacks (+1/2) (74 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2)

[Patriot]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

From A bricks point of veiw:

 

 

 

I block it with my chest!8d6 Physical EB damage sheild(+1/2)

which comes out to 60 active points, and fits well within most Superhero level campaign limits.

[bwdemon]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

We've all seen or used it: The speedster or high-level MA built with a AoE 1 Hex Accurate "Punch" that there is no way for the target to counter except DFC and/or Flying Dodge.

 

I've honestly never used it or had a fellow player/GM use it to simulate an unblockable attack. If we want an unblockable punch, we either throw levels into OCV or use Indirect or IPE. The only time we use AOE (1 hex) is for small explosions or the giant-sized fists/feet of a character with lots of Growth. AOE (1 hex, Accurate) is unheard of, despite its existence in the book.

 

So how do you build the counter to this type of attack when a Block cannot stop AoE attacks? I considered Force Wall or Damage Reduction with a "Blocking hands" SFX and some Limitations' date=' but that seems awkward, and the FW version fails utterly if the attacker "breaks" it. Has someone got a better way?[/quote']

 

Is it so bad that it's an unblockable attack? While I don't like the build, there are other defenses to it (dodge still works, DFC works better, and he can't hit what he can't reach). The power costs a fair chunk of character points and/or isn't that damaging, so I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'd worry even less about it if the character's punching OCV is significantly higher than the average opponent's, because he'd hit anyway and the power is just overkill.

 

He might do better with several OCV levels with his punch under a Costs End limitation (+10 OCV with Punch, Costs End, Active Cost 20pts, Real Cost 13pts). He's just about guaranteed to hit anyone with such a power.

 

Back to your question, though...

 

How about negative OCV levels triggered by your own block attempt? Even though you couldn't actively block your opponent's attack, his OCV could be reduced significantly, perhaps enough that a 3 DCV hex would become hard to hit.

 

Impenetrable Defense!: 6 NSL-OCV (30pts), Trigger (when making a block attempt, takes no time, resets automatically, +1), Limited Power (only against melee attacks made in that segment, -1). Active Cost 60pts, Real Cost 30pts.

 

It's expensive, but it might do the trick. The problem comes with whether the GM says: 1) the attack is unblockable, so you can't even try; or 2) you can attempt a block, even if the block itself must fail. You also have to hit the opponent with the NSL-OCV "attack." For an additional +1/2 advantage (75 active points, 37 real points), you can make it AOE (1 Hex, Accurate) and pretty much guarantee a hit by using the dreaded mechanic yourself.

 

So, when your character attempts to block an attack, the opponent suddenly loses 6 OCV for his attacks that segment. Assuming a 10 OCV speedster or martial artist, they now have a 4 OCV to hit the hex, which puts them at a 12 or less roll.

 

It feels dirty, but I think I did that right...

[The Souljourner]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

You Call That Unblockable?: Force Wall (17 PD)' date=' Hardened (+1/4), Transparent to ED Attacks (+1/2) (74 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Self Only (-1/2), Instant (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2)[/quote']

 

Do you really need "Transparent to ED Attacks"? I thought by definition, any Forcewall that doesn't have a defense appropriate to the attack was transparent to that attack?

 

Still, this is definitely my choice for blocking unblockable things. Depending on how dependable you want it to be, it might need a skill roll too.

 

I block it with my chest!8d6 Physical EB damage sheild(+1/2)

which comes out to 60 active points, and fits well within most Superhero level campaign limits.

 

Damage shield requires the power to be continuous already... that's why most people say damage shield is overpriced... you have to add +1 for continuous and then +1/2 for damage shield, which, if you keep to campaign limits, generally means your damage shield does such little damage that it won't affect most people who hit it. For example, a 4d6 EB damage shield costs 60 points, but will only do 4 body and 14 stun on average... that'll bounce off all but the most lightly armored foes.

 

-Nate

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Do you really need "Transparent to ED Attacks"? I thought by definition' date=' any Forcewall that doesn't have a defense appropriate to the attack was transparent to that attack?[/quote']

 

The actual rule is that a Force Wall with only PD/ED is transparent to exotic attacks. If you buy a 20 PD force wall with no ED, and no Transparent, any BOD from an ED attack breaks the wall.

 

Similarly, a wall with only Mental, Flash or Power defense is transparent to PD/ED automatically, but not to any of the three exotic defenses it may lack.

 

The Transparent advantage would otherwise serve no purpose. It can't be applied for any defense type the wall actually has.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Well, first off, if I were presented with that construct, I'd respond "You realize that that's an Undodgeable Punch, not an Unblockable Punch, right?"

 

Eggggggggzactly.

 

Personally, given the SFX, I'd allow it to be blocked.

 

I think the easiest "defense" to do against the build is just DFC one hex back.

 

To a degree, the rock/paper/scissors dodge/block/missile deflect/dive for cover dynamics of HERO can be annoying at times.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

I'm with CrosshairCollie on this one.

 

• An un-Blockable attack is usually represented by Indirect which can be Dodged.
  
• An un-Dodgeable attack is usually represented by AOE 1 Hex Accurate which can be Blocked

I would modify Oddhat's suggestion for OCV levels by making them usable only to increase the OCV vs. Blocks when combined with the AOE 1 Hex Accurate attack.

 

The only way to block the Indirect attack would be to use some type of hardened defense (Force Wall without hardened would not work) or rule that another character with access to a similar sfx Indirect attack could attempt a Block normally.

[OddHat]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

I'm with CrosshairCollie on this one.

 

• An un-Blockable attack is usually represented by Indirect which can be Dodged.
  
• An un-Dodgeable attack is usually represented by AOE 1 Hex Accurate which can be Blocked

 

I don't much like robbing a power of utility based on special effect without giving something in compensation, but so long as you have made how you want "Unblockable" attacks built clear to the Player at the time of character creation it's less of a problem.

 

I would modify Oddhat's suggestion for OCV levels by making them usable only to increase the OCV vs. Blocks when combined with the AOE 1 Hex Accurate attack.

 

To put limits on the levels would require purchasing them as 5 point levels. Unlimited, you could purchase OCV with a single attack ("Unblockable Punch") as 2 point levels. I wouldn't want to charge a player more points and use a slightly more complicaed build when a cheaper and more direct solution is available.

[bwdemon]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

You can dodge 1 Hex Accurate attacks (5ER, pg. 248). Dodge bonuses are added to the 3 DCV for the hex. You can add levels to DCV if you dodge, but you cannot add levels to DCV without dodging. It is harder to dodge (DCV = 3 + dodge modifier + levels), but you can still use the maneuver.

 

If you want undodgeable, then you remove the "Accurate" portion. Under this method, the target can only DFC to avoid the attack, but every potential target in the hex will be hit by the attack.

 

Frankly, as GM and based on the SFX, I would've made the character take the -1/4 limitation "Can be blocked" to avoid this whole mess. If he wanted unblockable, then use Indirect, IPE, or levels to achieve the result.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Or just make the bugger buy "+20 OCV, only to determine OCV vs Block attempts" and dispense with AOE. The guy who wants to block the unblockable attack buys +20 levels with Block.

[Enforcer84]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

With apologies to everyone...

 

 

To block the unblockable blow...

To Punch The unpunchable foe

To dodge the undogeable Blast

To kick the unkickable ast

 

I'll shut up now.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

With apologies to everyone...

 

 

To block the unblockable blow...

To Punch The unpunchable foe

To dodge the undogeable Blast

To kick the unkickable ast

 

I'll shut up now.

 

Where can I download a recording of that from?

[Enforcer84]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

of me shutting up? Just about anywhere.

[Valerious]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

If I may show my inexperience with the rules a bit...

 

Could a One Hex Accurate HA like is being described be combined with a martial maneuver to create, for example, a Martial Strike that hits DCV 3?

 

It seems a little cheesy...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

If I may show my inexperience with the rules a bit...

 

Could a One Hex Accurate HA like is being described be combined with a martial maneuver to create, for example, a Martial Strike that hits DCV 3?

 

It seems a little cheesy...

 

Yep.

 

without the accurate the possible sfx range from really big fists (Giant-Man) to really fast strikes (Chung-Li from Streetfighter video game). Adding on accurate seems appropriate for speedsters.

[Mentor]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Given how unlikely it is for Zlf to miss in the first place, unblockable applies to most of her attacks for most PCs. My personal preference has always been to use villains who can take it. I wouldn't consider blocking as a viable use of a phase against Zlf anyway if I opposed her with a MA with a high enough OCV and skill levels to hit her. She is not all that well defended and I would rather have the villain trade punches and see who lasts longest.

[Kevin Schultz]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Note that hitting the hex next to you is DCV 0. Hitting that same hex at range is DCV 3.

 

Also - yeah. I own UMA, and I've always used the "Unblockable = Indirect, Undodgable = AoE" rule.

 

That being said: my personal defense is a naked modifier: "AoE (one hex, +1/2) on up to 50 points of DCV. Active cost 25 points."

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

An excellent discussion, again demonstrating how many ways there are to do things in HERO. And perhaps how careful you have to be defining things

 

My kneejerk response to this was that due to the SFX the attack is blockable; if the player did not take a -¼ limitation for it, they should have.

 

But I also think that it should not be as easy to block as a normal attack; there is a +½ Advantage on it after all. For the sake of computing the effective OCV for purposes of blocking, figure out how many active points were spent adding the advantage, and convert them to 5 point HTH attack levels (5 point levels instead of 3 point because powers with built in levels are not allow to have them cheaper than 5 pointers, IIRC).

 

So, for an 8d6 AoE 1 Hex attack, that is 60 active points total, 20 of which go to the cost of the advantage, which gives you +4 OCV for the purposes of an OCV vs. OCV block roll. Fair enough?

 

________________________________________________________

"The fiction in her family was that she was never nice.

I'd say she was very, I just did not see the price." - S. Vega

[pinecone]

Re: How to block the "unblockable" punch?

 

Well...if I want counter flash to block Z'lf's unblockable attack, without stepping all over concept I'd let him put in a slot or VPP trick built as Damage reduction:RSR or gestures ("blocking") and just say "His fore arms are getting all bruised up...but much of your attack is being deflected by his hyper speed blocking moves" and call it good.....