Need Help with new power idea.

[JackValhalla]

I strongly suspect that I should just kill the player who put this idea to me. It might be easier to hide his body than to balance this. The idea is to create a character who starts out low-power, but then progresses, rather quickly, more quickly than is standard in superhero genre. Tentative write-up follows.

 

Rapid Advancement - This power can only be taken at character creation, and cannot be purchased or expanded with experience points. For every 1 character point of value, this power will "bank" two experience points. Whenever the character defeats a significant foe or completes a major objective, one of these banked experience points will be added to the character. These banked XP are in addition to the usual XP rewards assigned by the GM. A significant foe would be a non-PC opponent of equal or greater power than the PC. A major objective would not be the goals of an adventure, but of a serial campaign, or perhaps a multi-session goal of the character resolved through roleplay. If the PC is part of a group that mutually completes a goal or defeats opponents, the GM should arbitrate the PCs contribution to the effort. This power is obviously only recommended for characters who will be participating in a long-running campaign or chronicle. This power is inappropriate for Charges, Extra Time, Foci, Independent, No Conscious Control, Requires Skill Roll, or any of a number of other limitations and advantages.

 

Examples:

 

Personal Evolution - 20 Active points of Rapid Advancement, 8- Activation, (10 Real Points)

 

I Level Fast - 15 Active Points of Rapid Advancement, Limited Power (only to gain skills), Real Cost 10 points. <30 XP banked away>

 

I think this almost feels more like a power framework than a power itself, but I'll leave it to the consensus. I used the 2XP for 1AP as an arbitrary figure, it felt about right. The PC is giving up power at the outset of the game, and counting on staying alive and active in the game long enough for the Rapid Advancement to start paying off. If that doesn't happen, the points are wasted, so I wanted the payoff high enough that it wasn't a total handicap. But I believe that if I set the ratio too high, then it'll be abused by min-maxers and powergamers.

I need input, feedback, suggestions, even heckling and derision. Somebody please help me make this thing make sense.

 

Gawd, the things that come up when you let someone talk you into considering a "Teen Champions" game....

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

Go back and tell them you rethought it and no. It's unbalanced.

 

That is my 25 years talking.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

Go back and tell them you rethought it and no. It's unbalanced.

 

That is my 25 years talking.

 

I concur.

And I'm in the 25 year club too.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

I only have 24 years of HEROing behind me, so my advice may carry less weight than my board colleagues' , but I also concur. This isn't properly a Power, in that it doesn't reflect any kind of Special Effect; but metagaming munchkinism, an attempt to hardwire into the character's writeup an advantage over other PCs in gaining Experience. XP benefits such as those described are part of the GM's role in rewarding good play and good roleplaying, and should reflect a trusting, cooperative relationship between the GM and the player. Trying to make this a mechanical effect of the game strikes me as rather adversarial, and doesn't bode well for your interaction with the player.

 

I suggest talking to the player and assuring him that you will reward quality play on his part appropriately, without having to construct a built-in edge for his character.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

I'm with the rest on this one. This isn't a power, it's a bargain to have a less powerful character now in exchange for having a higher powered character later. In the example provided, the character gives up 10 base points in exchange for 40 extra xp over the course of the campaign.

 

How about offering the player the opposite approach - he can have a 10 point Disad that causes him to roll 8- every time you award xp. If he "succeeds", he gets 1 xp less. Once he's made the roll 40 times, you don't roll any more.

 

You might want to discuss this option with the group as a whole. However, my usual approach ("if PC's can do it, so can NPC's") holds little water here since NPC's get points at GM discretion in any case. One question to ask would be "how many characters will take this option"? Probably all of them - sacrifice a bit of starting power to gain power faster. If they all take it, however, it's really a campaign feature - they all start with less power, but gain power faster. Maybe ask how many would be comfortable if the rule is "this is a schtick power, so only one character in the group can have it - assume it won't be your character". I suspect the person who thinks this is a reallly great idea when it gives his character more xp than anyone else won't be so enamoured of it when he's one of the "amazing friends" instead of the "Incredible Exponential Growth Man".

 

Actually, you might also look to the xp rules on this one. How about I allow this, but I assess how powerful you are separately from how powerful everyone else is. That means that, when your extra xp has ben earned, you'll frequently face opponents who are "as powerful" while your teammataes facing the same opponents are dealing with opposition "more poweerful" than they are, so they'll get +1 xp over you in each of those scenarios. ie that 30 point gap will close up over time.

[Marketeer]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

I also concur with my colleagues--the "balance" in this construct is not there.

 

In general, the standard HERO way for modelling "fast growth" is to bank the points, yes--but there is no cost break of any kind on the banked points. You just note that X number of Character Points have yet to be spent, and allow a little bit of leeway in terms of not requiring in-story training and so on when the points are assigned to skills/powers/attributes/perks/whatever.

 

If the character is supposed to grow to the level of being more powerful than the rest of the characters, give him a larger bank of points--but now, the fact that the character is intended to end up more capable than his peers is open and commonly understood by the players.

 

As the construct is written, it games out to free points, particularly if you allow Limitations on the bank.

[Rapier]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

Good God!

 

Yep, you better get the rope. It's not gonna happen.

 

TOO crazy.

 

Tell them you forgot your medication that day and you had no idea what you were saying.

[zornwil]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

First, the question as always is "what do you want to accomplish," no great insight there, but it should be said...

 

So that being said, what is it?

 

Is it to grow faster than the other PCs, to tell some sort of storyline relevant to that? IF the other PCs ALL agree and as GM you want to tell this story, then, proceed with caution, and don't bother with the framework above, just give XPs at a greater rate to this character. But proceed with caution (I emphasize) as the other players need to be in lock-step to this all the way through - especially in a year or whatever when the subject of this thread is a 600 point character and the other PCs are at 300 (just as an example).

 

More fundamentally, if the question "what is this story about" cannot be answered, stop there and demand an answer to that. Then discuss it with all players and, perhaps, on these boards as well.

 

Anyway, if the answer is more to reflect that the character learns and grows more quickly in some sort of respect, consider that this might be well accomplished with what the system already has - Limitations. If a power/ability is properly Limited and you give XPs to it, it will grow "faster" for those XPs. Now, those Lims should not be "grows faster," but could be something such as "requires a skill roll," though you also want to watch what skill you are basing it on. This sort of Lim would well represent a character who gets more and more powerful as they use a skill, the resulting growth in power will be higher than without the Lim and the Lim still represents a requirement to exercise the skill.

 

But that's just tossing off an idea. The real question is what sort of story is being told here. If it's just so the character grows faster later, with no real reason and no hook for the other players to stand on, as people have said above, it's a road to ruin...

[pendelfield]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

I agree it will only cause problems in the long run.

 

I have known a couple of players in my 20 years that would have loved that idea, (of course one of them would have still complained about not getting enough experience) and none of them are members of the current group I game with.

 

But if you like the idea and the rest of the group agrees with it, go ahead and use it. But make sure it is available to all characters and remind them that when they face a group of villans built without said rule not to complain if they get there A***s kicked.

 

Of course thats just my opinion.

[Kenn]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

Do! Not! Use! This proposed "ability!"

 

It is an overly complex and officious way to gain experience points without earning them, on some kind of regulated method that takes XP control out of the hands of the game master. Experience Points are really a method for the gamemaster to regulate the rate of growth in a game. If you want a character to develop faster, you can award more points, above what the book says was earned. That's your right, and your perogative. And I'd go so far as to even recommend it sometimes. But it's the game master's ability, and his responsibility to use said ability responsibly, and to try and be as fair as possible with it.

 

But this idea. No.

 

No.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

I Do have a campaign house rule that I've used on occasion, usually in Fantasy or Pulp games, to create a group of differing power characters, where PC's are allowed a range of starting point values, where differnt starting levels are adjusted by bonus or penalty experience.

This was originally spawned by Aaron Alstons Lost Worlds, which rightfully pointed out that in many kinds of fiction, parties are unbalanced to begin with, and this doesn't always have to cause problems as long as everyone is hip to the idea. I tried it out in one of my Barsoom inspired Justice Inc. games and it worked out fine, but I decided that for a longer term game I'd like to alter the XP awards so that the inexperienced characters learned faster, while the uber charaters hardly change much at all. I tend to think of this as the "Fellowship of the Ring" Effect,and I'll use examples from the Fellowship to illustrate my point.

 

For my FH campaign I use the following options for PC's.

Neophyte Hero: 75 Base +75 Disads, receives +1 bonus XP per episode until total point cost reaches 225. Eligible for "retraining" story arcs to increase base levels depending on GM's discretion and total accumulated XP

examples: The Hobbits (possibly excluding Frodo, depending on if he had to pay points for his starting magic schwag)

Veteran Hero: 100 base +100 Disads, receives +1 Bonus XP per story arc up to 250 points. Also eligible for retraining.

examples: Boromir, perhaps Gimli &/or Legolas

Epic Hero: 150 Base +100 Disads, no special rules

examples: Aragorn, possibly Gimli &/or Legolas

Legendary Hero: 200 Base +150 Disads, Receives -1 XP per episode, By GM's approval only, receives a campaign related Disad :GM's Plot Device for no points, and effectively becomes a co-GM for the game. Also known as a Semi-NPC. With great power comes great responsibility.

examples: Gandalf

 

and one I haven't implemented but kind of like

Tragic Hero: 100 Base +150 Disads, eligible to receive a extra Bonus XP in any episode where he roleplays his disads well. Only these Bonus XP can be used to buy down Disads.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

When I have had players that wanted to "advance quickly", I let them build a character on 200 points (where the normal start was 250), but with a full allotment of Disads. Basically they start with 50 pts they haven't spent. Then they can use those unspent points to magnify their XPs (at some rate appropriate to the character background).

 

I have taken this approach for a character who had a spell book that he haven't fully absorbed yet, for one that wanted a planned "radiation" accident, and for a Highlander-type character who got chunks of XP every time he killed off one of his rivals. They started out weak, rapidly caught up to the other characters, but never surpassed them.

 

This will give you the fast advancement without being unbalanced, but it has to be built into the storyline; it is done for effect, not just to get XPs. Otherwise, as everyone else has mentioned, it is major munchkinsim.

 

__________________________________________________

Drained and blue

I bleed for you

You think its funny

But you're drowning in it too

- Alice in Chains

[garou]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

NO! I say this as a relative newcomer to the Hero system, but that's just plain wrong. If you are running a Teen Champions game, you can always choose to award an extra couple points of XP after defeating a notable foe or after going through some particularly tough adventure, but the approach you are using is just plain wrong.

 

If they want rapid vadvancement, the best way, as others have said, is to keep some points in reserve at the beginning, and then they get to spend them when it is appropriate.

[David Johnston]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

Tell him to stop watching so much Dragonball Z.

[Gummibear]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

Sounds to me like your player wants to be in a video game campaign with level bosses and such. If so then it should be for everyone.

I have to echo the 25 years of Heroing and say this is probably not a good "power." I would instead concur with Zorn and just give the PC more xp as a GM. To do anything else I think is setting you up for a bit of lawyering.

I would also strongly recommend that you dig deep for the true motivation. I don't think you've heard it yet.

 

One final suggestion-if the character wants more power based off of the ROLEPLAYING and not the raw xp (really the only way this should be allowed in anything other than a hack and slash XP grind) then you as the GM can have a bit of fun. Make them buy the Power skill if they haven't already. Watch what they do, watch what powers they explore and use the most. Then at a fun moment in the story, usually the part where they say "can my character do {x}", x being something that is within the power realm but not specifically purchased, then say, well lets see that Power roll. IF they have been roleplaying it and if they make the roll then the character has gained a new power. Yep this requires you to keep a rough estimate of what the current xp gained by said character is, but I can promise you that it can be quite a fun moment in the game and is well worth the effort.

Ghost may or may not agree, but has said that there was enjoyment in this method to my face. Now what Ghost is saying behind my back... well that's anybody's guess.

[Harakani]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

I've done it twice. It hasn't really caused problems but few people were interested.

 

A points based LARP I'm in now uses a similar mechanism. Our maths went like this:

 

This should be a power with a half-life. That is, over the course of the character's career it should *on average* have the same number of points as any other character. If we assume the average lifespan is X months, then the power should 'pay off' in X/2 months.

The issue is making sure X is correct.

assuming they start 40 xp down, and a get one extra xp each session, n/2 = 40. n then = 80 sessions. At 1 session per week, 52 sessions per year, that's over a year and a half. 10 months till they see any payoff.

 

We also limited exactly what the XP could be spent on; we mainly used it for 'gadgeteer' type characters building independent items we could take off them anyway, if we had to.

 

 

I also concur this is not a "power" in the hero sense.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

So. That's what deep fried munchkinism looks like. Few things.

 

1) I agree generally with what everyone else said. Because, generally, they're right.

 

2) I also would have put forward if he wants to 'advance faster' then he can choose to 'not spend his xp.' Or, if you're feeling really generous, you can opt to give him an additional disad if he's willing to a) RP it out and create a really money backstory for it.

 

3) I don't support simply giving out extra XP unless the guy is such a miraculous roleplayer that you're lucky he's at your table. But no, but no means is this a power, or something I would remotely allow in HERO (or even d20).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

I'm a 25-year guy, too.

 

But I need more details to answer properly. Assuming an otherwise standard 350 (200+150) point game, is it:

 

A: "I want to start off as a 250-point (say 100+150) character, but advance faster than everyone else, so that I eventually suprass them all. So one day, I might be at 550 points, while the rest are at 450."

 

Or

 

B: "I want to start off as a 250-point (say 100+150) character, but advance faster than everyone else, so that I eventually catch up to the rest. So one day, we'll all be at 450."

 

If it's B, then no problem. It'll be an interesting role-playing challenge for a good player, or an excuse to whine about being weaker than everyone else for a while for a not-so-good player.

 

If it's A, the question becomes, "How will the rest of the players feel about it?" Even aside from the point imbalance, it pretty much means that this one character is the star of the show - he starts off as the sympathetic rookie underdog and eventually becomes the Ultimate Champion. Oh, and, "How do you as the GM feel about it also?" If the other players agree to it (although it seems unlikely they will), you could run a game like this it that's the kind of story you want. To me, it doesn't seem like a good idea for a game.

[Kenn]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

If it's B, then I have to assume that the lower cost character is starting at fewer Base Points than his teammates. Therefore, he doesn't need a convoluted game mechanic. He just needs to slowly have his Base Points raised to match his teammates.

[Utech]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

You might want to suggest that your player review the rules for Experience Points. 5ER page 555:

A player who roleplays well, contributes a lot to the adventure (and thus to everyone's fun), and makes a clever deduction or two can walk away from a scenario with quite a few Experience Points for his character...

 

Then tell your player that while you will not accept the "Power" he suggested, you'll be happy to provide extra experience points if he'll just roleplay well, contribute a lot, and make clever deductions.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: Need Help with new power idea.

 

[Evil GM mode]

Tell him you don't like it.

 

If he persists, let him do it. Let him make the character with 100 "banked" points.

 

Then shoot him in the face in the first adventure. New character please.

[/Evil GM mode]

 

I agree with the others that the way to do it is just to save the points at creation. If I was very generous, I might allow some "interest" to build on the XP, but it would be pretty mild.