Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

[Robyn]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

we'll just say that I' date=' once again, completely and utterly disagree with you and how you interpret the game.[/quote']

 

Do you really? Your posts so far have focused on how Character A should not receive any benefit from his Disadvantages.

 

This is a good point, but Erkenfresh was asking what happens. The point of confusion was how, apparently, this would make a Disadvantage advantageous.

 

To look at it another way: if Kaja was reborn into a campaign world where biowarfare had exterminated most of the male half of the species, and was Hunted by most of the breeders (to their great misfortune, considering Druids are sterile . . . ), along with Distinctive Features: Man, a character who bought her Seduction power without the Limitation "only versus females" (a fair expectation, since humans are typically female in that campaign world) would logically (by the concept of her power) be unable to affect males. This isn't about Kaja! He would have no more right to expect immunity from his Disadvantage, than he would have to expect an EGO boost from one of their leader's "morale speeches" designed for the female mind (Aid power) if he'd taken "Male" as a Perk in that world (if men were highly valued, instead of hunted). Paying points for a single manifestation of one concept doesn't grant the character carte blanche to select when he wants to be male and when not; it doesn't allow him to cheat the female leader of her power. I repeat: this is not about Kaja; the character whose concept includes "male" does not have the right to make decisions for other characters about their powers. This applies even if the concept in question exists "only in roleplaying" (i.e., the character neither received nor paid points for it), as is often the case with "Male". I think that "fixing" new and unexpected situations by creating an inconsistency within the concepts of multiple characters, just to remain loyal to the predetermined mechanics, will ultimately create more trouble than it's worth.

 

The question is not "If the character took a Disad for their character concept, can that same aspect of their character be used to their benefit in an otherwise applicable situation?" any more than it is "If the character took a Perk for their character concept, can that same concept be used to their detriment in an otherwise applicable situation?". Paying points is not shorthand for "only good can come from this concept", just as receiving points is not shorthand for "only ill tidings will come from this concept". The points paid or received by the target of an attack, doesn't enable them to violate the concept behind the power of their attacker. This, to me, is at the heart of Erkenfresh's question.

 

To answer it, we need to examine how the attacker's power works. There are two possibilities I see, and I'll list the one you seem to be working from first:

 

1) Primary function is to inflict damage. Secondary function is "this really hurts", but this has no game effect, so it will be treated as a +0 Advantage, or Special Effect.

 

(Edit: Note that the secondary function here is specifically for this power - a typical attack power will not have "this really hurts" included in the build. Most of the time, we don't need to; it's generally safe to assume damage will hurt. But this is because most characters take a 0-point Psych Disad, not because all attacks are inherently painful.)

 

2) Primary function is to make them hurt:

IF  THEN 

Conditional power almost always occurs, so it counts as a -0 Limitation, becoming a Special Effect.

 

The first power will inflict damage normally, but the character's Disadvantage will prevent them from feeling it. The second power will try to inflict pain, then cause equal damage (which will be nothing).

 

In conclusion, I don't see how we are at all disagreeing, except perhaps on whether or not we have anything to disagree about. You are focused on how Character A mustn't enjoy any benefit from his Disadvantage, and I want Character B to be able to Limit his own power instead of being forced to compromise his character concept just because Character A got some extra points (Character A didn't even spend any for the privilege, darnit).

[caris]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

I have to first disagree with the concept that STUN = Pain. While one the primary effect of pain in the game is the loss of STUN, it isn't the only way to model a pain attack, and pain isn't the only thing that can cause a loss of STUN. I would find it to be a perfectly reasonable build to use Ego Attack to represent an overload of pleasure, for example. I might use a Mental Paralysis type build to represent a pain spell that created such intense pain that you can not do anything but deal with the pain.

 

Now, we come to the specific example of this thread. My first thought was, why would it matter? If it ever comes up, the GM should have built one of the two characters in the way that would produce the results that the GM wanted. The problem is that GM has built neither of the characters. On the good side, the GM has noticed the potential problem and is trying to decide on it before it comes up in the game.

 

It would seem to me that the first thing to do would be to talk about the concepts with both players. Does the person with the pain spell want it to work on characters that don't feel pain? Does the player with the delusional character expect something like a pain spell to work on the character? How likely is this going to come up? (Which comes to a corollary I have to a "Disadvantage that doesn't disadvantage a character is worth no points." "An ability, power or anything else that is never going to come up in the game costs no points.") If you figure out of 1000 game sessions it might come up once, than I'd treat it as +/- 0 mod to the Pain Spell, and get on with things. If it is likely to come up a noticable amount of time, change the builds, and I would still lean towards modifying the Pain Attacks, and charging a Life Support level of cost for the immunity to pain (i.e. no more than 10 points).

[Zed-F]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

If the character with 'Feels no pain' as a disad has appropriate defenses defined with that SFX, I'd be tempted to disregard this specific 'cause you to feel pain' EGO attack. An EGO attack defined as causing the memory of pain would still work, however. I'd let the mentalist make a power skill roll to alter his EGO attack slightly to a different form (such as causing the memory of pain) which would still work. Alternatively, he could use a different mental power (such as an appropriately defined mental illusion) to do the same thing.

 

No-one bats an eye when someone takes CvK or Protective of Innocents on their character sheet. No-one would argue that these are in fact disads. But if a mind-controller orders you to kill little Ginny, you'd better believe you're getting a bonus to your breakout roll on the basis of those lims.

[caris]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

No-one bats an eye when someone takes CvK or Protective of Innocents on their character sheet. No-one would argue that these are in fact disads. But if a mind-controller orders you to kill little Ginny' date=' you'd better believe you're getting a bonus to your breakout roll on the basis of those lims.[/quote']

 

And/or the Egoist has to acheive a higher level of result than on someone with no appropriate disads.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

I can think of plenty of other examples where a disad can become an advantage, at least outside of combat context.

 

Example: Captain Confident is Overconfident and Arrogant. When faced with foes that are generally mroe powerful than him, he charges forward to victory anyway whereas most heroes would retreat in fear.

 

Captain Confident has garnered an advantage out of his disadvantages.

 

It's also worth mentioning that, Character A NORMALLY TAKES STUN DAMAGE. As Robyn pointed out, there's a difference between a weapon causing STUN damage which in turn causes pain and a spell that causes pain which in turn causes STUN damage. My case is the latter, and it has nothing to do with how weapons and every other spell will affect the character.

 

With everyone touting to "reason from effect", I figured I'd see more people on the "sure he's immune" side of the fence. But, I can also see the "you should pay points for that" argument. I'm figuring this will never happen, so making Character A pay points for it seems a bit silly. Do you make your bricks pay for an EB when they throw a car at the enemy once every ten sessions? Probably not, you just let them do it because it makes sense to the campaign.

 

Thanks for everybody's input though. I didn't know this would be such a hot topic.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

Do you make your bricks pay for an EB when they throw a car at the enemy once every ten sessions? Probably not, you just let them do it because it makes sense to the campaign.

 

Yes, but only if:

 

said Brick wants to throw things without limmiting the max damage to the DEF+Body of the object

 

or

 

He doesn't want to suffer penalties for the object being non-aerodynamic.

 

Anyhow, limitations are often advantegous in some way, shape or form. Daredevil is blind, so he's utterly immune to Sight Group Flash attacks from the likes of Dazzler. But, Dardevil has ALSO spent a considerable number of points on powers based on being combat effective without the use of Sight.

 

By contrast, if I have a Brick that has the Disadvantage "Unbreakable Skin: Requires special Medical Attention", I am not automatically immune to a somone using needles or scalples as the SFX for the HKA's. I need to buy appropriate levels of resistant defense to go with my desired SFX.

[Starwolf]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

I would view it this way. 1) the disadvantage is a PHYSICAL limitation, to me that means the nerves that convey the feeling of pain are dead or damaged (I personally suffer from diabetic nueropathy so I inderstand). This is very dangerous as a person can be cut (even a small cut) and not know it, which can then become infected, and require amputation by the time it is discovered. Diatebitcs are trained to inspect their feet and legs every day for just this reason. 2) The ego attack is a mental thing. It is very common for amputees to FEEL pain in limbs that no longer exist, this is called phantom pain and has very real physiological effects. So unless Hero A is also brain dead, he FEELS the pain, probably more acutely than a normal person who is accustomed to the sensation, but it is all in his mind. I would further run the disadavantage something like everytime that character A took physical damage (stun or body) I would make some kind of a roll (perhaps a CON roll with a -1 per BODY taken) to see if the characters skin was broken. If so I would then give him a PER rolls IF he inspects for damage to notice, other wise everyday I would make a roll for infection... and eventually apply impairment/disabling effect, assuming the infected character survives.

[Zed-F]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

The ego attack is a mental thing.

The deal it, it's not necessarily a purely mental thing. It could be a physiological thing. If the Egoist is causing someone to feel pain by directly implanting a sensation of pain in the target's mind, that's one thing. If he's causing pain by stimulating the various pain nerves in the target's body, that's another thing entirely. Part of the problem in this case is that the 'attack which causes pain' is not described with sufficient granularity to distinguish between the two. Normally, this is not a problem. However, in certain rare instances, it makes a difference.

[Utech]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

IMHO I think it is just fine for the hero who does not feel pain to be able to ignore attacks that consist entirely of causing pain -- assuming all the sfx line up and all that good stuff. But that doesn't automatically mean that the hero's disadvantage becomes an advantage. It just means the GM has be creative in keeping the disadvantage disadvantageous.

 

Example:

Pain Inflicter grins a wicked grin and points a threatening finger at Doesn't Feel Pain Man. "I don't know who you are," PI's voice drips with arrogant malice, "but I'm about to teach you the true meaning of pain!"

 

DFPM bravely thrusts out his chest and says, "Do your worst, villain! I'll not let you harm another schoolbus full of nuns and happy bunnies!"

 

PI looks at DFPM. DFPM looks at PI.

 

"So, uh, are you doing your worst?" asks DFPM.

 

"Well, yeah... I guess," says PI with great consternation. "Now that's just weird."

 

"I didn't feel a thing," says DFPM. "I thought you were going to teach me the true meaning of pain."

 

"Yes, well never mind that," snaps PI. Still pointing at DFPM, PI looks at his evil teammate, The Rip You Limb From Limber, and says, "Rather than teach this puny would be 'hero' the meaning of pain, I have decided that you, my massive friend, should teach him the meaning of 'I have no limbs'."

 

Cracking his knuckles, TRYLFL grins a gap-toothed grin and leaps at DFPM!

 

So what happened? Well, our hero who does not feel pain is able to totally ignore the powers of the villain who inflicts pain. But that doesn't give him any real advantage. Matter of fact, it remains a disadvantage because now our hero is facing an even tougher villain!

 

Now, if you don't find that sort of thing entertaining there's no need for it. Just rule that the disadvantage doesn't protect against the damage caused by the attack as others have suggested and be about your business.

[Robyn]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

My case is the latter' date=' and it has nothing to do with how weapons and every other spell will affect the character.[/quote']

 

And you should assign Advantages or Limitations for each and every single one of those spells and weapons that the character might conceivably interact with unusually, even if it only has the chance of happening 00.1% of the time, if you think that your GM might be a stickler for building those things properly in the first place (even for situations you don't expect at the time of chargen). On the other hand, if you're the GM, it would be much simpler to just state your policy as "if something unexpected comes up, we use common sense".

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

I'm curious whether this would have been the same hot button if the question had been about something other than immunity to another character's attack power. If we had asked "Should it be as effective to torture Feels no Pain man as to torture someone with a normal sense of pain", what would the answer be? Clearly, inflicting pain should have no direct effect against a person who feels no pain.

 

If encountering people who feel no pain will be common enough, a -1/4 limitation on the Ego Blast would seem to be in order. If not, perhaps this is a -0 limitation. But it is a limitation justified by the SFX of the power.

 

An Ego Attack need not cause pain. It could cause sleep (and the same logic of a limitation if the target does not sleep would apply). It could simply cause the mind to shut down so the target ceases to act. The "intense pleasure" example has already been given. There is no reason that the Feels no Pain character would enjoy any special resistance to these powers.

 

He could also buy scads of all defenses, only against attacks based on causing pain, but I think he's getting ripped off unless such attacks are common enough that this will come into play on occasion.

 

Other disadvantages? Captain America is scrupulously honorable. Sometimes, that's a disadvantage. But sometimes people trust him because they know of that honor. Sometimes honorable behaviour changes an adversary's opinion of the character. Those seem like advantages that arise from this disadvantage.

 

SlugMan is susceptible to salt? Pretty disadvantageous. On the other hand "Ow! That hurt! Why would you salt me?" "Sorry SlugMan - we had to be sure you weren't that wicked shapeshifter and a surprise shake of salt seemed the only way."

 

"Viper's after you too? Well, the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

 

Disadvantages are mechanics, but they also have special effects. We have no problem saying that FireLad's flamebolt doesn't work underwater, even if being underwater happens so infrequently that this isn't a point-saving limitation on his powers. It's likely not prudent for him to light up his Flame Aura in a rocket fuel refinery either, or in a sewer. I doubt many of us have an issue with FireLad being able to set off the fire alarm with his EB when Wind Woman couldn't. Powers sometimes have unusual effects, and things we pay for sometimes become destrimental rather than advantageous. So why is it a big deal that, on rare occasions, a disadvantage works to the character's benefit rather than his detriment.

[Valerious]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

My gut reaction to this was "of course he takes stun", but after further consideration, I see the argument for the other side.

 

Aside from the various Daredevil examples, let's say a bad guy has a HA with the special effect of twisting someone's arm(silly, but bear with it). He absolutely couldn't use it on the hero with the physical limitation: no arms, even though that was a disad worth points and the villain had paid for the attack. It just wouldn't make sense for the special effects, and I see no need for the hero to need to buy some defenses to attacks which target arms.

 

So it seems to me that a guy with a disad for "Feels no Pain" ought to not feel pain. So does that mean he should be immune to the attack? Maybe. It depends on the special effect for how the pain is caused, and why he doesn't feel pain.

 

In fact, one of the biggest questions to me, is how is this disadvantage built? Several arguments have been put forward under the assumption that it's a physical limitation, but I note that Erkenfresh didn't actually say that(unless I'm missing it). If it is, and his body is just incapable of feeling pain, then I'd say he was immune. But the way it's described(delusional guy thinks he's a god), it seems like it could be psycholgical as well. Does he think he's a god because he doesn't feel pain(physical limitation), or does his mind refuse to acknowledge pain(psychological limitation) because he think he's a god? If it's the latter, then I'd say he takes the stun, but remains unaware.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

No-one bats an eye when someone takes CvK or Protective of Innocents on their character sheet. No-one would argue that these are in fact disads. But if a mind-controller orders you to kill little Ginny, you'd better believe you're getting a bonus to your breakout roll on the basis of those lims.

 

Appropriate PsyLims raise the level of effect needed for Mind Control.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

If the character wants to function like an Automaton -- feeling no pain and able to fight on until he is dead, then allow them to apply the Automaton Takes No STUN ability, pay x3 for their defenses, and have fun with it.

 

Sure, its verbotten in 5th Edition, but it was allowed (with GM Permission) in 4th Edition and Ive had characters with those abilities in past games. They worked out fine in general.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

Sitting up in orbit, looking up at The Hero System, you might think that the big picture is that it is all about balance. I'd say, from my experience, that was about right.

 

So...DareDevil: yes he has compensating senses that he can use to ignore LOSS of vision attacks, but he can also ignore attacks that work through visual means: a strobe light that causes seizures would just not register with him.

 

He doesn't have to pay points though, for not being able to see, or buy special defences to attacks that work through visual means. Why? Too complicated - who has the time to sort out every eventuality in advance and cost it out? I mean, strobe attacks are probably not that common.

 

So Professor Painless has, on their character sheet, 'Feels No Pain'. It is there as a disadvantage and he gets points to play with as a result. OK. He has no idea how much STUN and BODY they have taken, at least without looking and checking out the damage. The metagamer in me says not that much of a lim: anyone worth their salt in this game can probably keep a rough track from numer of hits, knowledge of own character, whether you were stunned etc. Still, you'll get the odd nasty surprise.

 

I mean, any attack that causes stun probably has a pain element, but we can assume that the body (as has already been pointed out) still suffers the shock, but the character is unaware of it until they fall over. If PP gets hit by a no KB attack in the back (a laser, say) he is completely unaware of it until he suddenly dies or falls unconscious.

 

OTOH there are bonuses. He can reach into a raging flame and pluck out the Control Crystal with major bonuses to his ego roll - so long as the fire doesn't completely destroy his hand he'll probably succeed. Moreover he can almost completely ignore any attack defined as causing damage purely by causing pain. (So that'll be where I stand on this one)

 

Occasionally, you'll have a problem there, but my view is that balance is maintained by the GM, and the player for that game. If PP claims all attacks cause some of their damage through pain and wants 25% damage reduction free, you simply say 'NO'. If he buys it, cool.

 

I used to think that SFX should be utterly irrelevant, then I thought that they should be better incorporated into the system, but now (and I'm not claiming this is enlightenment or anything: it is just where I am right now) I'm thinking that the points you pay, or that you get from a disagvantage should reflect the relative utility of a power even if you have not perfectly defined it is system terms.

 

That is not to say the system is irrelevant, oh no. The utter glory of Hero is polishing your concept to a rare shine. I'm just saying that with a decent GM and a player not inclined to sulking, simply having 'Feels no pain' as a disadvantage is not a problem, even if it soes mean that it is sometimes an advantage.

 

On balance...which is where I came in...it is a disadvantage worth the points you got for it. If it is occasionally a positive then the negatives have to get bigger too, for any given point value.

 

Anyway, that's what I think.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

And I totally disagree with that, Sean. A concept so basic to the character should serve as the SFX / Justification for various attributes of the character that have a measurable effect on the in-game experience. That may map out to multiple abilities and disadvantages both, but you model both.

 

In the HERO System if EVERYONE can do something you pay no points for it -- the baseline is free for all; you pay points for abilities that are better than baseline and you get points back for things that are worse than baseline.

 

So in this case you start with the idea..."A person that feels no pain"...and reason from that effect into how that makes the character different from the baseline. For those abilities that are better, you decide how much better and pay the points indicated. For those abilities that are worse you decide how much worse and get the points back as indicated.

 

Its really as simple as that.

 

 

In this case the player should decide how they intend their "Feels No Pain" concept to make them better and / or worse than people that don't have that feature, pay the points for the pros, and recoup the points for the cons.

 

 

If Mr. Feels No Pain has taken a Disadvantage to the effect that they do not feel pain, then normally it is purely a detriment to the character, but in the case of other characters interacting with Mr. Feels No Pain, if those characters have happened to define one or more of their abilities as functioning in such a fashion based upon their concept as to have no effect on things that' don't feel pain then they presumably have taken a Limitation upon those abilities to reflect as such, and thus would have no effect (or perhaps reduced depending on build and intent) on Mr. Feels No Pain.

 

You look at the effect in question and determine how it resolves. In this case the end behavior is not caused by a feature of Mr. Feels No Pain, it is caused by a flaw of Mr. Causes Pain.

 

 

 

Personally, I would expect the player to purchase some means of STUN management with the SFX of "Feels No Pain". This could be as simple as simply buying a LOT of STUN and / or a very high CON, reflecting that though the character takes damage, they don't really feel it like other people and thus stay conscious longer. It could be STUN only Armor or Damage Reduction. It could be modeled using the Automaton powers (with GM Permission). It could be combinations of these and other related abilities also using the concept, such as Resistance, Rep based on "Tough Mo-Fo", extra Hand Attack (can hit things harder because he doesn't feel the pain of impact), extra PRE only to intimidate ("OMG, my best shot didnt even make him blink!"), and so forth.

 

If there are some downsides to this ability as well that the player wants to play up in the game, then Disadvantages are also appropriate; more than one might apply, depending on how the player wanted to introduce challenges into game play. Anything ranging from a PhysLim as mentioned, a PsyLim (Daredevil / Overconfidence steeming from a lack of fear of paing, or some kind of disassociative disorder stemming from the inability to feel the touch of others (called "skin hunger" by the way)), a mild Distinctive Feature stemming from the character sometimes giving themselves away by not reacting to something that should hurt ("Hey, buddy, don't you know you just stepped on a nail?"), a Vulnerability stemming from their problem (for instance, if the character feels no pain because they have no nerve endings in their skin, then some EGO Attacks might still hurt the character if they are targeting their brain directly -- and since the character is not USED to feeling pain it they actually have a very low pain threshold when their feature is circumvented...x1.5 effect vs EGO Attack would not be unreasonable), and so on.

 

One thing about the HERO System that is important to remember is that very rarely does a basic concept robust enough to hang a character around serve as the basis for JUST ONE expression of effect in the HERO System. The most interesting and nuanced builds are those that have one or more strong central concepts with many primary and ancillary abilities that tie back to them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

I'm not against modelling a concept, far from it. I think that should be encouraged. I think you should build powers appropriate to the concept to reflect in mechanical terms what you define as the attributes of the character.

 

However, thre are few character built so foresightedly that their mechanical implementation always perfectly reflects their concept, especially when they have to interact with other perhaps imperfectly realised concepts.

 

That is when I think the overlay of sfx can be useful.

 

A couple of caveats though.

 

1. If you were doing some sort of tournament play, you'd do it from the character as built. I probably woulldn't even allow such a wooly concept as a disadvantage of 'cannot feel pain' - too much GM effort required on a case by case basis. In a regular game with people who you can trust though, I'm inclined to get a little more freeform.

 

2. The valus of this disadvantage must be considered. I mean it could be:

 

0 point disadvantage: feels no pain

 

The it would be up to the GM to balance it out: quite a few minor inconveniences and benefits and one or two major ones, maybe. If you are claiming it as a 25 point physical limitation though, it is almost always going to be a problem.

 

I mean, bear in mind, much as I'd like it to, Hero simply does not balance. A 25 point physical disadvantage, say being a teraplegic, is in no way equivalent to having an incompetent sister, a reputation for being a bit dodgy and glowing blue eyes. The system does not work on its own: the people who run it and play it make it work

 

It is an sfx that covers so many bases. You could have mind control, defined as pain simulation, making a body react by moving in a certain way, so you'd need limited mental defence, or increased EGO. You could have all kinds of defences against any attack that could cause pain (all of them, especially given the system has AVLD, you are going to need defences to flash, power, ed, pd, yada, yada, yada). You could go with limited damage reduction: that does cover AVLD and even NND attacks if properly defined, but does not cover non-damaging effects, such as drains (running drain defined as painful muscle spasms, for instance) or flashes (it hurts too much to open my eyes....)

 

However, if we look at the original question, we are getting a bit beyond: the question was not: Can the 'disadvantage' Feels No Pain be used to justify practically anything?

 

It was this: if a character has a disadvantage 'Feels No Pain' does he take damage from an attack specifically defined as causing damage by causing pain. OK, I'm paraphrasing.

 

Point is, PP or CFNP or whoever is not trying to justify a general advantage froma disadvantage; the question concerns the interaction of a disad with an unusually defined power. Bear in mind, if PP or CFNP is a PC, the GM has built the character who causes damage by causing pain and vice versa. So the whole situation is only there in the first place because the GM engineered it. I'd say it is a GM call, but I would call it: no pain, no damage, on these facts in this instance. Probably.

[Robyn]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

I'm curious whether this would have been the same hot button if the question had been about something other than immunity to another character's attack power.

 

If a vampire steps into the sunlight but noone is around to see it, does she still catch on fire?

 

I ask because, on Angel, the question of how he got around wasn't detailed every time. An occasional mention of tunnels, and in a few episodes he was even filmed moving through them; but were the tunnels in LA really that extensive? And what about the times when he couldn't get there (on time, or at all) through the tunnels, and had to work out some other means of transportation?

 

Does anyone remember whether Lilith was the "mother of vampires" in the Book of Nod? Never mind; I'm already mixing mythologies here, I may as well get the names wrong too.

 

"If a daughter of Lilith is beheld by a son of Adam, under Lucifer's gift, she will be consumed by the flames she can no longer control."

 

This allows dramatic sense to determine when the PC has trouble getting around; under most circumstances, the vampire gets around "off-stage", and the Disadvantage is only highlighted when travel problems are a part of the adventure, or the GM wants the player to be clever and innovate something creative. Dice can also be used (with a very unlikely Activation roll) to randomly generate complications during the regular adventures.

 

But what happens if a ninja is spying on the character secretly?

 

The vampire takes damage, and looks around, but doesn't spot anyone. She may become suspicious. She knows that someone is watching her; she wouldn't be taking damage, otherwise. The ninja didn't know about this, and was definitely looking directly at the vampire. And suddenly, this Disadvantage has provided an advantage.

 

I doubt many of us have an issue with FireLad being able to set off the fire alarm with his EB when Wind Woman couldn't.

 

What if FireLad and WaterLady are sending an EB toward each other; flame and water, meeting in the center of a long, narrow corridor. Logically, the flame and the water should meet, and cancel each other out (creating steam in the process). Perhaps the more powerful of the blasts will even push the other back, dealing damage with whatever is left. But, if we insist on disallowing what was not specifically accounted for in advance, the two EB's will go right through each other, ignoring the presence of their elemental opposites.

 

Powers sometimes have unusual effects' date=' and things we pay for sometimes become destrimental rather than advantageous.[/quote']

 

Exactly. In the long run, these minor (not worth any points) effects will balance out.

[pinecone]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

He still takes STUN, because his Body can still be hurt, nervous system overloaded.

 

It just never registers any of that with the reaction part of the brain - he'll never look like he was hurt because he doesn't, in fact, know he was actually hurt at all.

 

And I hope he bought some Powers (Damage Reduction, Defenses, high CON) to help represent that as well, otherwise he's probably looking at Psych Lim: Ignores All Pain

 

Yeah,at first blush I'd consider it to mean that he just granted an invisable power effect to his attacker....You sense that he's in your mind...but you don't notice anything hapening...my but you seem to be feeling dizzy.....It really is up to the SFX as to where I'd end up, but in general a disadd is a disadd.

And of course in my years of gaming I've seen this particular "disadd" more than once, and every time the playa was expecting to use it as an "accidental" advantage every time.......

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

It was this: if a character has a disadvantage 'Feels No Pain' does he take damage from an attack specifically defined as causing damage by causing pain. OK, I'm paraphrasing.

 

Point is, PP or CFNP or whoever is not trying to justify a general advantage froma disadvantage; the question concerns the interaction of a disad with an unusually defined power. Bear in mind, if PP or CFNP is a PC, the GM has built the character who causes damage by causing pain and vice versa. So the whole situation is only there in the first place because the GM engineered it. I'd say it is a GM call, but I would call it: no pain, no damage, on these facts in this instance. Probably.

And as I said, the incoming attack that raised the question should also answer the question -- consider how it is defined and decide based on that. If it isn't built in such a way as to not effect people that don't feel pain then it affects the target.

 

If there is a problem with that resolution then the problem is not with Mr. Feels No Pain, its with the attack power not being properly modeled to match its intent.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

Do you really? Your posts so far have focused on how Character A should not receive any benefit from his Disadvantages.

 

Everything has to be taken on a Case By Case basis within the Context Of The Game They Exist In.

 

I do not believe in Universality of Concept.

 

I can mechanically take any character from one of the games I'm in and play them in, say, Killer Shrike's games. However they may not conceptually fit in any way thereby making them completely illegal, dispite what the piece of papers says about his game and my game using the same set of Mechanical Rules. They are not using the same set of Universally Expected Rules.

 

That's all i have to say. In this case - I say the character was probably built incorrectly, or even if they were built correctly for the game I would let an EGO Attack defined as "I cuase the pain centers of the brain to go haywire" to deal STUN the target does not feel or react to.

 

Physical Limitation: Feels No Pain in no way under any circumstances conveys "Takes No STUN" or "Takes No Damage"

 

They take full effect, beyond any actual defenses. But they don't react to it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

Everything has to be taken on a Case By Case basis within the Context Of The Game They Exist In.

 

I do not believe in Universality of Concept.

 

I can mechanically take any character from one of the games I'm in and play them in, say, Killer Shrike's games. However they may not conceptually fit in any way thereby making them completely illegal, dispite what the piece of papers says about his game and my game using the same set of Mechanical Rules. They are not using the same set of Universally Expected Rules.

 

That's all i have to say. In this case - I say the character was probably built incorrectly, or even if they were built correctly for the game I would let an EGO Attack defined as "I cuase the pain centers of the brain to go haywire" to deal STUN the target does not feel or react to.

 

Physical Limitation: Feels No Pain in no way under any circumstances conveys "Takes No STUN" or "Takes No Damage"

 

They take full effect, beyond any actual defenses. But they don't react to it.

 

And you'd be welcome in said games.

 

And, oh yeah, I agree with the rest of your post too

[Manic Typist]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

So, how would they "not react to it?"

 

Could they just not be Stunned, and that's it?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

So, how would they "not react to it?"

 

Could they just not be Stunned, and that's it?

 

No, they still get Stunned, they just don't feel pain. They don't yell out. They don't know they're hurt. They don't know they're bleeding unless they look. They may not run away. A benefit is torture really is ineffective since it relys on the idea of feeling pain as much as actually inflicting injury.

 

Taking a Disad (properly worded or otherwise) should not allow one to bypass Game Mechanics, especially ones such as Damaged, Stunned or Knocked Out.

 

I would have all my characters take "Feels No Pain" if I could avoid all that in combat AND get points for it!!

[Robyn]

Re: Disadvantage that becomes an advantage?

 

And as I said' date=' the incoming attack that raised the question should also answer the question -- consider how it is defined and decide based on that. If it isn't built in such a way[/quote']

 

Because, of course, how the power was built is the sole and ultimate arbiter of how the power is defined. According to the Universality of Mechanic rule, anyway, which I am a loyal adherent of. This principle has never caused me any problems. I have not encountered any situations in which I built the power one way during chargen but realized later on that I should have done it differently. I have never made any mistake. I am perfect. That is because I . . . am a machine.

 

I lack imagination; if a situation comes up where the mechanics dictate one outcome and Common Sense would indicate another, I see no conflict, because I am not programmed for "common sense". My coders may apply an update to me after the game session, to improve my future performance, but this will be irrelevant since their inherent imperfections will not change the fact that I did do the right thing when the question arose.

 

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