Hero is broken

[Warp9]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Now you're just confused.

 

Then please enlighten me.

 

Quote #1 by Kristopher

The idea that there is a simple, direct, and strict power to damage relationship of any kind in HERO is laughable.

 

Isn't the above a statement about in-game mechanics?

 

Quote #2 by Kristopher

3d6 really is 3 times as expensive and 3 times as powerful as 1d6.

 

Isn't this also a statement about in-game mechanics?

 

So I don't understand what you were saying with the following quote:

 

Quote #3 by Kristopher

As I've already said, that was meant in a strictly in-game, mechanical sense.

 

I still don't see how what you've said can be anything but a contradiction.

 

Please explain yourself so that people with my limited intelligence can understand you.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Warp9

Isn't the above a statement about in-game mechanics?

 

Isn't this also a statement about in-game mechanics?

 

So I don't understand what you were saying with the following quote: "As I've already said, that was meant in a strictly in-game, mechanical sense."

 

I still don't see how what you've said can be anything but a contradiction.

 

Please explain yourself so that people with my limited intelligence can understand you.

I'll put this in simple words since you seem to have identified the problem.

 

1) Kristopher is discussing in-game mechanics.

 

2) I am discussing in-game mechanics.

 

3) You are discussing "real world" mechanics.

 

4) Game mechanics are not the real world. I don't particularly care if you think 2d6 is a highway flare or a hydrogen bomb in the real world, in the game it does 2d6. Period. End of discussion.

[Warp9]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I'll put this in simple words since you seem to have identified the problem.

 

1) Kristopher is discussing in-game mechanics.

 

2) I am discussing in-game mechanics.

 

3) You are discussing "real world" mechanics.

 

4) Game mechanics are not the real world. I don't particularly care if you think 2d6 is a highway flare or a hydrogen bomb in the real world, in the game it does 2d6. Period. End of discussion.

 

I am also discussing in-game mechanics--your statement that I'm not is simply untrue.

 

And please explain to me how Kristopher's 2 statements are not contradictions.

 

He has stated that: there cannot be a realationship between power and damage in the Hero game System.

 

And he has also stated that: there is a 1 to 1 realtionship between power and damage in the Hero game system. (3d6 = 3X the power of 1d6)

 

How can those 2 things not be contradictions?

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Warp9

I don't believe that we have the technology to produce something like a shell that could travel at 1 million fps--if you have evidence that we can, then I'd like to see it.

 

The fastest muzzle velocity figure I've ever seen for a real-world weapon was for an experimental railgun (or "mass driver" or "gauss gun"). It was 11,000 meters/second. That comes out to about 35,000 fps.

 

The KE value does go up as a square of velocity, but that has nothing to do with the exponential scale of Hero.

 

KE = 1/2MV^2. M = mass; V = velocity.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

4) Game mechanics are not the real world. I don't particularly care if you think 2d6 is a highway flare or a hydrogen bomb in the real world, in the game it does 2d6. Period. End of discussion.

 

For you. And, perhaps, for some others. If all you care about is that the game is internally consistent and don't care about any kind of realism or believeability, then great! You're done at this step. Press on, and feel free to ignore us Philistines.

 

However, SOME of us WANT to have a way to correlate Real World Mechanics to Game Mechanics. I think it is great to be able to look up the specifications for a new weapon or vehicle and have a meta-system or at least a guideline for "Hey! I wonder what that would do in Hero?".

[Catacomb]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Originally posted by TaxiMan

The underlying basic concept of Hero is broken. That concept is the exponential scale of damage and defenses. They are wrong. Here's why:

 

A man ("George") attacks an enormous elephant. He has 4d6 attack, and the elephant ("Jumbo") has 16PD. On average, "G" does 14 STUN, which is reduced to 0 STUN after "J"'s defenses.

 

OK, so even though J has 40 STUN, he'll never go down, the attack is ineffective. J is pretty passive, and just stands there.

 

This will never work, so G picks up a club that quadruples his damage! He now does 6d6 (4d6 + 2 doublings), and will dish out 5 STUN a phase after J's defenses (21 STUN average - 16 PD). It will take eight phases before J (who holds his breath so he gets no Recoveries) is KOed.

 

G has learned his lesson! Next time he meets the forgetful J, there is no club available. Fortunately, he has three friends, so they can deal out quadruple damage! At first they are uncoordinated, and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING happens to J. The elephant thinks he's getting a massage. Ho hum.

 

G's team learns to coordinate their attacks, and so the group of four get to add their damage. Now it's 4d6 * 4, or 16d6 / phase. That's an average of 56 STUN. Working together, G's team takes out J with one blow!

 

To recap, G's attack can't hurt J.

 

G quadruples his damage, and takes 8 phases to defeat J.

 

G has three uncoordinated friends, and can never defeat J.

 

G's friends learn to coordinate and defeat J instantly.

 

That's where the exponential flaw is easily seen. Let the flames begin! Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

 

Gee if only coordination worked that way...you take the stun per attack and add it together for stunning purposes so you don't multiply damage, you add. PLONK!!! Stinking troll.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Arthur

For you. And, perhaps, for some others. If all you care about is that the game is internally consistent and don't care about any kind of realism or believeability, then great! You're done at this step. Press on, and feel free to ignore us Philistines.

 

However, SOME of us WANT to have a way to correlate Real World Mechanics to Game Mechanics. I think it is great to be able to look up the specifications for a new weapon or vehicle and have a meta-system or at least a guideline for "Hey! I wonder what that would do in Hero?".

There is nothing wrong with wanting such a thing. I attempt to do the much same thing in my own game. My point is that the Warp9 (and others) are arguing that Hero's damage system is exponential without any evidence to back up that assertion. An exponential damage system is not supported by game-world results. By stating that each DC is twice as much damage as the preceeding DC, we are led to such ridiculous conclusions as that a 20d6 attack is 524288 times as powerful as a 1d6 attack and 30d6 attack is well over 53 million times as powerful as a 1d6 attack. That is obviously not the case if you look at how the game works. A 20d6 attack will level a building or flatten a hero, but it is patently not 524288 times as powerful as a 1d6 attack. Think Spider-Man could survive a 15d6 punch from Rhino? Of course he can, and has. Think Spider-Man could take a thug's bullet for 1d6RKA (3DCs)? Natch. How about 5461 bullets as Warp9 proposes is the correct damage for 5d6 RKA (15 DCs)? I don't think so, Tim.

 

You can create reasonably accurate representations of real world weapons in HERO without resorting to exponential damage. In fact, they would alow you to be more accurate since you have a near infinite number of grades (1d6, 1d6+1, 1½d6, 2d6, 2d6+1, etc.) rather than each d6 being twice as powerful.

[tmutant]

Originally posted by Kaeto

At least it isn't as bad as the guy in my gaming group who took the earth as a focus, and defined it as fragile so that it only took 1 body to destroy it.

 

Was it a replaceable focus?

 

Was his name Arthur Dent?

[Warp9]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

My point is that the Warp9 (and others) are arguing that Hero's damage system is exponential without any evidence to back up that assertion. An exponential damage system is not supported by game-world results.

 

It takes only double the body of an object to destroy it fully (FREd page 302). And by its mass Earth has less than 100 Body.

 

But don't take my word for it, here is a quote from thread about how much damage it would take to destroy the planet.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4931&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

 

Originally posted by Monolith

The rules in Star Hero state that the planet has 86 BODY, so that is the number you need to over come to break the planet into pieces. The 177 BODY number is the amount of damage required to "vaporize" the planet.

 

I'm getting a little tired of making this point over and over again. I have supplied multiple items of game world evidence--but it just keeps getting ignored.

 

Trebuchet, do you accept the fact that the Hero rules say that the Earth would be destroyed by a 200d6 EB? (yes or no)

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Warp9

Trebuchet, do you accept the fact that the Hero rules say that the Earth would be destroyed by a 200d6 EB? (yes or no)

Ah yes, the classic "appeal to authority" of those with a flawed argument. Yes, I can accept the fact that the rules say that without agreeing with that rule. It's patently absurd.

 

By your line of reasoning, if Earth has only 86 BODY as claimed by Star Hero, then less than a dozen 20d6 attacks would also destroy it. (Average 20 BODY per attack, 20 - 7 PD = 13 BODY to Earth per attack, or only 7 20d6 attacks to destroy Earth.) Let's take that a step further into the absurd. A standard speed 4 brick with a 12d6 attack can break Earth into pieces in only 18 Phases, or less than one minute. Can you see now why this 2X mass per BODY formula is inherently flawed? And of course the equally flawed opposite side of this coin is that each 1d6 is twice as much damage. It just doesn't work that way. Let's take another example of where HERO doesn't jive with observed facts. A person in HERO falling and impacting at terminal velocity takes 30d6 of damage; and conversely ought to do 30d6 of damage to whatever they hit. In Hero this ought to leave an enormous crater in the earth, since dirt has a DEF of 0 and only 10 BODY. Thus a person hitting the ground at terminal velocity should theoretically leave a crater of 500,000 cubic hexes in size since he did 20 more BODY than the dirt had and each +1 BODY doubles the size of the hole. But in the real world do skydivers who fall to their deaths destroy entire cities when they hit? No.

 

The Breaking Things rules were designed to deal with discreet objects like buildings, doors, walls, bridges, boulders and the like that humans can plausibly interact with, and they just don't scale up well. It cannot be rationally applied to objects millions or billions of times larger. Earth and other planetary sized objects should have millions if not billions of BODY. I agree that a 200d6 blast would do serious damage and would probably make an enormous crater, but destroy the Earth? Hardly.

 

I 'm sorry, Warp9, but this is one instance where the original game designer had a major brain fart. George MacDonald blew this one rather badly, and I'm only sorry Steve Long didn't see fit to fix this for 5th edition.

 

Just because something is written down in a rule book doesn't make it gospel. I'm not going to stop using my brain just because "The Bible tells me so." If Steve Long et al want to kick me out of the Church of HERO as a heretic, so be it. In the meantime I'll keep nailing my list of grievances to the cathedral door.

[Blue Angel]

One thing about planets they are either fully (or near fully) destroyed or unhurt. A big crater doesn't destroy it. It just relocates it's mass. A planet doesn't care about it's mass distribution. So a 20d6 EB might make a crater but no "real" lasting damage as far as the planet is concerned. If you do enough damage you could render it lifeless but the planet itself would not even notice. All it knows is "I still have my mass". To cause significant "harm" you need to overcome the gravitional binding energy which on a planetary scale is alot of energy.

 

To build planets properly you need to include some sort of regeneration. The mass falls back down to the surface and the body is recovered.

[Warp9]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I 'm sorry, Warp9, but this is one instance where the original game designer had a major brain fart. George MacDonald blew this one rather badly, and I'm only sorry Steve Long didn't see fit to fix this for 5th edition.

 

Just because something is written down in a rule book doesn't make it gospel. I'm not going to stop using my brain just because "The Bible tells me so." If Steve Long et al want to kick me out of the Church of HERO as a heretic, so be it. In the meantime I'll keep nailing my list of grievances to the cathedral door.

 

Hey look dude, I didn't write the Hero rules--I'm just letting you know what they say. Nobody said that you have to use the Hero rules as written. But I love all the Hero rules just as they are!

 

And I am saying that there is some strong evidence, in the Hero rules as written, to support exponential damage.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Warp9

Hey look dude, I didn't write the Hero rules--I'm just letting you know what they say. Nobody said that you have to use the Hero rules as written. But I love all the Hero rules just as they are!

 

And I am saying that there is some strong evidence, in the Hero rules as written, to support exponential damage.

 

A big support for exponential damage is the 2X body per 2X mass or thickness rule. Looks pretty exponential.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Ah yes, the classic "appeal to authority" of those with a flawed argument. Yes, I can accept the fact that the rules say that without agreeing with that rule. It's patently absurd.

 

By your line of reasoning, if Earth has only 86 BODY as claimed by Star Hero, then less than a dozen 20d6 attacks would also destroy it. (Average 20 BODY per attack, 20 - 7 PD = 13 BODY to Earth per attack, or only 7 20d6 attacks to destroy Earth.) Let's take that a step further into the absurd. A standard speed 4 brick with a 12d6 attack can break Earth into pieces in only 18 Phases, or less than one minute. Can you see now why this 2X mass per BODY formula is inherently flawed? And of course the equally flawed opposite side of this coin is that each 1d6 is twice as much damage. It just doesn't work that way. Let's take another example of where HERO doesn't jive with observed facts. A person in HERO falling and impacting at terminal velocity takes 30d6 of damage; and conversely ought to do 30d6 of damage to whatever they hit. In Hero this ought to leave an enormous crater in the earth, since dirt has a DEF of 0 and only 10 BODY. Thus a person hitting the ground at terminal velocity should theoretically leave a crater of 500,000 square hexes in size since he did 20 more BODY than the dirt had and each +1 BODY doubles the size of the hole. But in the real world do skydivers who fall to their deaths destroy entire cities when they hit? No.

 

The Breaking Things rules were designed to deal with discreet objects like buildings, doors, walls, bridges, boulders and the like that humans can plausibly interact with, and they just don't scale up well. It cannot be rationally applied to objects millions or billions of times larger. Earth and other planetary sized objects should have millions if not billions of BODY. I agree that a 200d6 blast would do serious damage and would probably make an enormous crater, but destroy the Earth? Hardly.

 

I 'm sorry, Warp9, but this is one instance where the original game designer had a major brain fart. George MacDonald blew this one rather badly, and I'm only sorry Steve Long didn't see fit to fix this for 5th edition.

 

Just because something is written down in a rule book doesn't make it gospel. I'm not going to stop using my brain just because "The Bible tells me so." If Steve Long et al want to kick me out of the Church of HERO as a heretic, so be it. In the meantime I'll keep nailing my list of grievances to the cathedral door.

Waitaminnit, you get to disregard rules you don't like in this discussion but will bring up rules that you think support your position?

 

The argument that there are multiple examples of exponential progression in the game is not refuted by saying you don't like it. If this is merely an argument of taste then don't appeal to authority either.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

Waitaminnit, you get to disregard rules you don't like in this discussion but will bring up rules that you think support your position?

 

The argument that there are multiple examples of exponential progression in the game is not refuted by saying you don't like it. If this is merely an argument of taste then don't appeal to authority either.

Doug, where do you see me bringing up rules to support my position? I stated the obvious intent of a section of the rules; to wit the section on destroying objects. It is you and your allies who have decided to extrapolate those rules beyond all reason. You are quite correct, there are numerous examples of exponential progression in HERO just as there are examples of linear progression. What I am saying is that Hero System's entire use of exponential progression is wrong, both in game effects and in observable real world examples. I gave examples of several absurd results from using exponential damage and BODY which you chose to ignore, I can only presume because you have no effective rebuttal. Kindly produce a counterargument as to why a 75 STR brick can't destroy Earth in less than 2 minutes using the HERO rules. Without resorting to GM fiat, you can't. Any game system needs to be internally consistent in how it works.

 

I don't have any problem within my campaign using the rules as written, because IMHO nuclear weapons and planet-shattering attacks are plot devices and don't need that level of detail. I'm simply not so pedantic that I see a need to quantify how many dice the Death Star'sâ„¢ blast was. As far as I'm concerned it was awholelottad6. This is not an argument of taste, I am merely stating the somewhat obvious fact that in this particular regard the rules are broken.

 

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to grab my sledgehammer and destroy our planet to illustrate my point. I'll be back in 10 minutes.

[Shadow War]

***DELETED AND BANNED***

[Catacomb]

Wow, you spend months on end trying to get back on just to flame...well at least we know that you're obsessed with Steve and Hero. C'mon you love it right? Why else would you try so hard to get Steve's attention?

[Blue Angel]

There is no rath like a woman scorned.

[Blue Angel]

I just checked CKC. It would take an attack of 100 body to kill Grond in a single hit. That is more than the Earth!?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Blue Angel

I just checked CKC. It would take an attack of 100 body to kill Grond in a single hit. That is more than the Earth!?

And the official Hero approved version of the Hulk published in July's Game Trade Magazine would require a 170d6 attack to kill in one shot. (35 PD, 25 BODY, 50% Damage Reduction) Doesn't that illustrate my exact point rather succinctly?

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Catacomb

Wow, you spend months on end trying to get back on just to flame...well at least we know that you're obsessed with Steve and Hero. C'mon you love it right? Why else would you try so hard to get Steve's attention?

I would not be surprised to find that half the new people posting in this thread are actually the same person. The poster has a history of arguing with himself on message boards to drum up responses.

 

Just ignore him. He has been reported and Ben and Dan will weedout all his new accounts he has been piling up here since his last eviction.

 

Besides, if the author had any brains he would realize that Steve did win an Origin's award. It was his friends at GoO and Green Ronin who were shut out.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Monolith

I would not be surprised to find that half the new people posting in this thread are actually the same person. The poster has a history of arguing with himself on message boards to drum up responses.

I think you're probably wrong there, Monolith. The only truly new person posting in this thread is Shadow ****. While I may not agree with Warp9's position, I believe he is a legitimate poster who honestly disagrees with me. Shadow **** is too arrogant and obnoxious to disguise himself for long. He's just a more-obvious-than-usual troll. I just do the smart thing and block his posts whenever he appears instead of waiting for Ben to shut him down again.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Ah yes, the classic "appeal to authority" of those with a flawed argument. Yes, I can accept

 

Dude (or dudette), you are usually quite sharp and good at the discussion game here, but this one was a swing and a miss.

 

We are talking about a RULES SYSTEM. EVERYTHING about it is contained in one book written by humans. There is no such thing as independent verifiable evidence on this subject. The author of this work is, by definition, the ultimate authority.

 

If George MacDonald were to tell us "Yes, I intended that each +1 DC represent a doubling of energy in Real World terms", then that would be IT. Fini. End of argument. The Author is always right as long as you agree to play his game (in novels or movies, this is a symbolic statement, here it is quite literal).

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Arthur

We are talking about a RULES SYSTEM. EVERYTHING about it is contained in one book written by humans. There is no such thing as independent verifiable evidence on this subject. The author of this work is, by definition, the ultimate authority.

 

If George MacDonald were to tell us "Yes, I intended that each +1 DC represent a doubling of energy in Real World terms", then that would be IT. Fini. End of argument. The Author is always right as long as you agree to play his game (in novels or movies, this is a symbolic statement, here it is quite literal).

To a certain extent I agree with you, but not only has George MacDonald not made such an explicit statement but to a large extent the rules defy their own internal logic on this topic. (Nor is George MacDonald the final authority anymore, he has been superceded by a new prophet.) Nowhere in the rules does it state categorically that each +1 DC represents twice as much damage; some people are extrapolating that from other data. Steve Long has repeatedly asserted that one must use common and dramatic sense when playing this game, so why not in this particular and ambiguous case?

 

What would be harmed within the game by Steve Long categorically stating that damage is linear rather than exponential? Absolutely nothing. It would simply give results more compatible with both real-world and comic book physics. I know this is a game of rubber science, but that doesn't mean we can't strive for internal consistency. If it is left as is we are faced with the absurdity of a vanilla 60 STR brick being able to destroy the Earth in under one minute within the game system. Since that defies both observable real-world physics and the comic-book physics that this game system was originally designed to simulate, I put it to you that this needs correction. We are not dealing with holy writ here; as you correctly pointed out it is a game system, edited and revised by a man who is perfectly willing (and has!) to admit he makes mistakes. If the system were already perfect there would have been no reason for 5th Edition.

[lemming]

Originally posted by Arthur

If George MacDonald were to tell us "Yes, I intended that each +1 DC represent a doubling of energy in Real World terms", then that would be IT. Fini. End of argument. [/b]

Back in the old days, there were plenty of questions you could ask all the different authors and get a different response from each.

Now based on various examples, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that there's a logorithmic scale to damage. I'm too lazy to get off my ass to look into the newer material, but it used to be that every +2d6 N would mean you had doubled the amount of explosive material.

Now with the argument that planets should have more body: I think so. Different components or something. I tend to just hand wave it at that point. Of course, if we went pseudo realistic, the energy released by each brick's haymaker would irradiate the surrounding area.

Which is why I just don't care to go too deep into making things too real. I've got plenty of physics & chemistry in my background, but I've got better things than trying to measure the calories needed to sustain my speedster's metabolism.