Hero is broken

[stmichaeldet]

Re: Hero is broken

 

How much growth will I have to buy before Grond can no longer target my character?

 

With 400 points of Growth my character will be bigger than the Earth.

 

I freely concede that, if you are running a campaign with characters that can reasonably grow to the size of planets, then you have a problem. But I just don't see how that affects play in the overwhelming majority of campaigns that take place on more familiar scales.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I freely concede that' date=' if you are running a campaign with characters that can reasonably grow to the size of planets, then you have a problem. But I just don't see how that affects play in the overwhelming majority of campaigns that take place on more familiar scales.[/quote']

You said that Grond could not target the Earth. My point was that (as far as I know) there is no specific rule that says: "when a target get bigger than X size, normal attacks will no longer have an impact on it."

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the whole exponential concept, but I do think it needs to be consistent in application.

[stmichaeldet]

Re: Hero is broken

 

But when would I need such a rule? In my experience, I've never, ever needed to know the Body value of a planet, nor had to calculate system-based damage on a planetary scale, and I'm hard pressed to imagine a workable campaign that would need to. I guess my advice to anyone who wants to run such a campaign would be to give up on Hero and try to find something with a combat system designed to work at astrophysical scales. Good luck with that.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

But when would I need such a rule? In my experience' date=' I've never, ever needed to know the Body value of a planet, nor had to calculate system-based damage on a planetary scale, and I'm hard pressed to imagine a workable campaign that would need to. I guess my advice to anyone who wants to run such a campaign would be to give up on Hero and try to find something with a combat system designed to work at astrophysical scales. Good luck with that.[/quote']

I can't tell you when you'd need the rule, but you are the one who brought it up--I just wondered where you got it from.

 

 

 

And to address the point about astrophysical scales: one of the main points of an exponential scale is that it allows for vast flexibility, there is no reason why HERO can't work on a planetary scale, or on an ant scale.

 

The problems that you are seeing have nothing to do with the exponential scale, but instead are based on trying to mix a linear scale with an exponential one.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Hero is broken

 

i read all of this thread, and my conclusion...

 

 

Nuko: the atmoic mage by arthur should be a character concept that i play. And soon.

 

"No Ralph i don't care how much damage you rolled on your haymaker" [/Quote]

 

has caused me to burst out laughing in work.

 

Twice

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

NEWS FLASH:

 

By the standards offered in this thread, and in fact, by universal rule, ALL roleplaying systems currently in existence are broken. If you consider it remarkable that HERO is unrealistic in certain aspects -- if you even CARE about that unavoidable fact of all PnP RPGs -- stop playing roleplaying games entirely, while you still have your health. You'll never find a perfect RPG. Some are better than others; the most you can do is to find the one you like best, and stick with it.

 

As a friend of mine once said: "All roleplaying games suck, deep down. You just have to ignore that and get to the fun of roleplaying."

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

As a friend of mine once said: "All roleplaying games suck' date=' deep down. You just have to ignore that and get to the fun of roleplaying."[/quote']

 

There are different degrees of suckage however. And the suckage in one game may well be in a different area than the suckage in others.

 

And of course one person's suckage is another person's gold.

 

None of this is reason to ignore problems in RPG design however. The primary reason we have others games beside D&D is because of designer efforts to reduce suckage or change it into gold.

 

 

However Warp 9 has IMO gone far enough in his "HERO is Broken" stance that its time we agree with him, i.e. For Warp 9, HERO is broken. He needs to move on to another game.

 

I'd suggest JAGS (http://www.jagsrpg.org/) as a possible start. It's designer had some of the same problems as he in respect to HERO.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

There are different degrees of suckage however. And the suckage in one game may well be in a different area than the suckage in others.

 

And of course one person's suckage is another person's gold.

 

Yeah, man. I mentioned the fact that some are better than others. That's not what this thread is about, though; it's about HERO being broken. And the fact that one man's trash is another man's treasure is always in effect.

 

None of this is reason to ignore problems in RPG design however. The primary reason we have others games beside D&D is because of designer efforts to reduce suckage or change it into gold.

 

I didn't say to ignore it. Fact is though, HERO isn't broken. That's like saying a trout is a fish -- because all RPGs are inherently "broken," why are we singling HERO out for it? It's no more "broken" than all other RPGs, and far less "broken" than some.

 

However Warp 9 has IMO gone far enough in his "HERO is Broken" stance that its time we agree with him' date=' i.e. For Warp 9, HERO is broken. He needs to move on to another game.[/quote']

 

I've searched long and hard to find HERO. Personal preferences aside, the realism I know Warp9 craves cannot be found anywhere outside of physics equations.

 

I'd suggest JAGS (http://www.jagsrpg.org/) as a possible start. It's designer had some of the same problems as he in respect to HERO.

 

Hmmm, wonder what that is....

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I've searched long and hard to find HERO. Personal preferences aside' date=' the realism I know Warp9 craves cannot be found anywhere outside of physics equations.[/quote']

 

 

Warp 9 does not seek realism. Much of he wants is actually unrealistic.

 

He just seeks a different approach whose failure points are outside his own personal tunnel vision.

 

Or he may be the kind of person that will never be happy with anything.

 

Whatever the case, it's time he moved on.

 

 

Hmmm, wonder what that is....

 

It bills itself as a free rpg (or did the last I checked) to be used in the same role as HERO or GURPS.

 

The designer is a good guy, but like Warp 9 had major problems with the mix of linear and EXP mechanics in HERO (and other issues). So he went out and made his own game.

 

I've heard good things about it although I've never played it. The noted issues in HERO don't bother me, as a result his solutions didn't offer me any reason to change.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I've heard good things about it although I've never played it. The noted issues in HERO don't bother me' date=' as a result his solutions didn't offer me any reason to change.[/quote']

 

I still think people need to come to terms with the fact that no RPG is perfect. I used to wish for perfection myself, but it can't be had. All systems have their flaws -- some more than others, but there are no exceptions.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I still think people need to come to terms with the fact that no RPG is perfect. I used to wish for perfection myself' date=' but it can't be had. All systems have their flaws -- some more than others, but there are no exceptions.[/quote']

 

I play two perfect RPG game systems, i.e. perfect within the limits of what I use them for.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I play two perfect RPG game systems' date=' i.e. perfect within the limits of what I use them for.[/quote']

 

Fox, you know what I mean.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Fox' date=' you know what I mean.[/quote']

 

Yes I do.

 

And I hope you know what I mean when I say that I play two perfect games.

 

 

I'm no fan of Warp 9 by any measure. However I'm not ready to label him with the title of "he who endlessly seeks perfect realism and must whine in he search".

 

If I was willing to do that, I would have done it to myself in the last days of my own personal D&D era.

 

He may deserve such a label. I haven't watch him long enough to determine that. But in the meantime I'll assume that Warp 9 is looking for perfection in the same manner that I was when I left D&D for my fantasy game and V&V for HERO.

 

The main problem right now is that Warp 9 wants to change HERO to match his imagine.

 

That's unacceptable. He needs to move on to something else.

 

Here are his best options:

 

1. House Rule HERO to match his needs. Put it up on the website and brag about it.

 

(This is my own choice with dealing with HERO problems, but I don't do all that much bragging IMO).

 

2. Find another game that is closer to his expectations.

 

3. Give up Gaming.

 

OR

 

4. At least give up complaining about a game that suits thousands of other people just fine.

 

 

If he doesn't pick one of those options in the next few months... yeah. He's just in it for the whine. Or the ego boost of trying to force his view of the game onto others.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I still think people need to come to terms with the fact that no RPG is perfect. I used to wish for perfection myself' date=' but it can't be had. All systems have their flaws -- some more than others, but there are no exceptions.[/quote']

 

I agree to this. If you are a simulationist (i'm not very much of one) all games do not mimic life perfectly.

 

But they sure are fun!

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I agree to this. If you are a simulationist (i'm not very much of one) all games do not mimic life perfectly.

 

I used to hang with a bunch of serious simulationists. The first ones on the Internet in fact.

 

They considers simulation and Superheroes to be incompatible goals. I can see their point.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I used to hang with a bunch of serious simulationists. The first ones on the Internet in fact.

 

They considers simulation and Superheroes to be incompatible goals. I can see their point.

 

Simulation is not about realism. It is about portraying something as accurately as possible, even if that thing is fantastic.

 

1. The act or process of simulating.

2. An imitation; a sham.

3. Assumption of a false appearance.

4.

1. Imitation or representation, as of a potential situation or in experimental testing.

2. Representation of the operation or features of one process or system through the use of another: computer simulation of an in-flight emergency.

 

Realism and simulation are not the same.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Hero is broken

 

ah my mistake in wording then

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Simulation is not about realism. It is about portraying something as accurately as possible, even if that thing is fantastic.

 

I have no idea what you think you're correcting from my post, but I made no claim of Simulation = realism.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I have no idea what you think you're correcting from my post' date=' but I made no claim of Simulation = realism.[/quote']

 

You claimed your "simulationist" friends did not believe it was feasible to "simulate" superheroes, which is ridiculous. They can easily be simulated.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

You claimed your "simulationist" friends did not believe it was feasible to "simulate" superheroes' date=' which is ridiculous. They can easily be simulated.[/quote']

 

 

Hmm, I'm not certain they'd consider me a friend.

 

Their point was that in order to have a simulationist mindset, realism as such is not necessary- however consistent 'laws' of physics and behavior need to be. They considered the genre requirements of superheroes to be inherently irrational and inconsistent- and thus not open to a true simulationist.

 

Beyond that, take it up with them, not me. I'm just forwarding on a interesting opinion that may or may not have some relation to the problem Warp 9 has with HERO.

 

But be aware that you're talking to the very people who first coined the term "Simulationist" on the internet. They will consider your effort to define it back to them amusing.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Hmm, I'm not certain they'd consider me a friend.

 

Their point was that in order to have a simulationist mindset, realism as such is not necessary- however consistent 'laws' of physics and behavior need to be. They considered the genre requirements of superheroes to be inherently irrational and inconsistent- and thus not open to a true simulationist.

 

Beyond that, take it up with them, not me. I'm just forwarding on a interesting opinion that may or may not have some relation to the problem Warp 9 has with HERO.

 

But be aware that you're talking to the very people who first coined the term "Simulationist" on the internet. They will consider your effort to define it back to them amusing.

 

I really don't feel the need to speak with those persons. I'm taking part in this conversation here, now. And seniority on the internet means not a damn thing to me. Woooooow... you were a geek ten years ago, too? I'm not worthy! (Not you, those guys.)

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I really don't feel the need to speak with those persons. I'm taking part in this conversation here' date=' now. And seniority on the internet means not a damn thing to me. Woooooow... you were a geek ten years ago, too? I'm not worthy! (Not you, those guys.)[/quote']

 

Redefining the words in common usage simply because you want to?

 

And this coming on the heels of calling people who hate long chargen system various names in another thread. Has it been a bad day?

 

Whatever.

 

Call the concept I'm speaking of George then if it makes you happy. I certainly wasn't speaking about whatever it is that you had to pipe up about.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Redefining the words in common usage simply because you want to?

 

No, my fine friend, I didn't redefine the word. The dictionary defined it the first time for me.

 

And this coming on the heels of calling people who hate long chargen system various names in another thread. Has it been a bad day?

 

I am entitled to my opinion. Calling dislike for long chargen "preference" is an excuse for laziness IMO.

 

Call the concept I'm speaking of George then if it makes you happy. I certainly wasn't speaking about whatever it is that you had to pipe up about.

 

Why don't you chocolate it where the moulding don't shine?

 

Apples and oranges comparison, here.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Why don't you chocolate it where the moulding don't shine?

 

Whatever.

 

Two people were speaking about a subject using common internet jargon for a concept you're seemingly clueless about, so you poke your nose in and try to 'correct' people.

 

And now you get mad about it.

 

I think you're funny.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Whatever.

 

Two people were speaking about a subject using common internet jargon for a concept you're seemingly clueless about, so you poke your nose in and try to 'correct' people.

 

And now you get mad about it.

 

I think you're funny.

 

I'm not mad. Only crazy people get emotional at a message board.