Hero is broken

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

A 500d6 attack that hits 1 hex is still only 1 hex of the Earth. There should be similar questions in regard to a pin-prick attack against a person IF that attack were truly so microscopic and without explosive ramifications.

Is this stance coming from a "realistic" perspective, or from an "game-logic" perspective?

[Warp9]

Re: This Thread is broken

 

We're not discussing GURPS.

No. But we are discussing how HERO might do things. . . .

 

Your statement was:

 

"The slow progression of Mass:Body ratio is necessary unless you want every large building in a campaign to withstand the force of an atomic bomb."

 

My point is that, if an atomic bomb is rated to do damage at a linear rate, then buildings can also be rated at a linear Mass:BODY ratio. In that case the buildings will still be destroyed; so your argument doesn't hold water.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

So how would you rate objects? Would every aircraft carrier have 1 million BODY?

 

Let's check. A Nimitz-class aircraft carrier weighs 97,000 tons full load (I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt with the crew and all). At 100 ktons on the chart, that's 30 BODY.

 

Fricking. Ridiculous. I could stab the thing a few dozen times with a knife and sink it, according to the rules.

 

So, yes, it may be exponential... but it's the BASELINE BODY. You'll be adding waaaaay more for an aircraft carrier, or anything else that's not made out of rice paper. You can't base the claim that the system is exponential on the baseline BODY suggestion.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Let's check. A Nimitz-class aircraft carrier weighs 97,000 tons full load (I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt with the crew and all). At 100 ktons on the chart, that's 30 BODY.

 

Fricking. Ridiculous. I could stab the thing a few dozen times with a knife and sink it, according to the rules.

 

So, yes, it may be exponential... but it's the BASELINE BODY. You'll be adding waaaaay more for an aircraft carrier, or anything else that's not made out of rice paper. You can't base the claim that the system is exponential on the baseline BODY suggestion.

On the Object Body Table, a battleship is listed at 29 BODY.

 

Is this argument about "BASELINE BODY" somewhere in the actual rules?

 

And BTW what BODY do you think an air-craft carrier should have?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

On the Object Body Table, a battleship is listed at 29 BODY.

 

Is this argument about "BASELINE BODY" somewhere in the actual rules?

 

And BTW what BODY do you think an air-craft carrier should have?

 

No, it's from common sense. I was using the Expanded Vehicle Size Table from Star HERO, since an aircraft carrier is a vehicle.

 

What body do I think it should have? A lot more than 29, considering that (since no DEF is suggested for objects of any size on the tables) I could KICK an aircraft carrier and sink it in less than five minutes. I don't run aircraft carriers, though.

 

The values on the table don't list any DEF, either. So I suppose an aircraft carrier has 0 DEF? All I'm saying is that the tables are a guideline, and that using them to prove that the system is exponential is an unscientific way to go about it, since it takes only very arbitrary, baseline objects into account.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

What body do I think it should have? A lot more than 29, considering that (since no DEF is suggested for objects of any size on the tables) I could KICK an aircraft carrier and sink it in less than five minutes. I don't run aircraft carriers, though.

That is not an answer to my question

 

The values on the table don't list any DEF, either. So I suppose an aircraft carrier has 0 DEF?

It also doesn't tell us how tall it is, I suppose you think that means it has no height?

 

The table is there to rate an object's BODY--nothing else. I have no idea why you think it should list defense too.

 

 

All I'm saying is that the tables are a guideline, and that using them to prove that the system is exponential is an unscientific way to go about it, since it takes only very arbitrary, baseline objects into account.

The formula given in the book is +1 BODY per 2 X mass. That formula establishes an exponential pattern.

 

Are you saying that the formula was never meant to be applied to most objects in the game?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Let's check. A Nimitz-class aircraft carrier weighs 97,000 tons full load (I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt with the crew and all). At 100 ktons on the chart, that's 30 BODY.

 

Fricking. Ridiculous. I could stab the thing a few dozen times with a knife and sink it, according to the rules.

 

It seems ridiculous until you add the appropriate DEF. The main structure of an Aircraft Carrier is made of various grades of steel. The DEF of solid steel starts somewhere around DEF 8 and goes up from there depending on the density and hardness of various alloys used in its construction. Considering its a military grade vehicle, its not made with normal steel, but various superior alloys (i'm not sure which alloy, I'm a submarine guy, not a Carrier guy) so one can assume that the base Defense of the Carrier would be quite a bit higher than DEF 8. Probably closer to Def 12. Maybe even Def 14 or 15.

 

There's absolutely no way you chould sink a carrier by stabbing it with a knife at this point.

 

The point I'm trying to make here is that Body is not the only determination of how "tough" something it. Its a combination of Body and Defense. In Hero the average Tank only has 19 Body, but that Defense of 16-25 is what makes them so damned hard to take down.

 

Its all about thresholds here. An Aircraft Carrier with a Body of 30 may seem "fragile" but with a Defense of 15, its going to take a minimum of a 9 DC attack to do any damage whatsoever to the craft, and even then, it can only occasionaly acheive between 1 and 3 Body damage to the carrier, meaning its going to take from between 10 and 30 hits to disable the carrier (make it sink maybe) and a minimum of 20 to completely destroy it. By the time you can acheive that, the carrier will have dealt with you. (or one of its planes or copters would have, anyway)

In order to sink the carrier with only 1 or 2 hits, you are going to need an attack on the order of 36 DC! A 12D6 killing attack does an average of 42 Body damage. It takes a 45 Body attack (30 Body plus 15 Def) to drop the carriers Body to 0 in one shot.

 

Thats a whole lot of damage.

 

So, yes, it may be exponential... but it's the BASELINE BODY. You'll be adding waaaaay more for an aircraft carrier, or anything else that's not made out of rice paper. You can't base the claim that the system is exponential on the baseline BODY suggestion.

 

I wouldn't be adding too much more to the Body of the carrier to get it right. Depending on what I want to do with it, I might add 3 or 4 Body. Or I might reduce the Body a bit if I want it to be easy to sink during a naval confrontation. Its all relative.

 

And yes, the Body system is the most obvious evidence that the Hero damage system is exponential.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

That is not an answer to my question

 

 

It also doesn't tell us how tall it is, I suppose you think that means it has no height?

 

The table is there to rate an object's BODY--nothing else. I have no idea why you think it should list defense too.

 

 

 

The formula given in the book is +1 BODY per 2 X mass. That formula establishes an exponential pattern.

 

Are you saying that the formula was never meant to be applied to most objects in the game?

 

The chart is flawed, that's the problem -- because the system is flawed, as are all roleplaying systems. Some things (characters) can have lots of BODY -- as I said, someone with NCM restriction can have more BODY than a Mack truck -- and be much smaller than an object with comparable BODY on the chart. In any case, I think the chart should be applied as a guideline to ALL objects in the game, but you often need to modify the values given.

 

Look, I'll concede that the Object Size Table has an exponential component. So? Our original discussion was how STR is exponential. Well, I don't believe it is. I believe that in SOME cases it has a linear effect, and in OTHER cases it has an exponential effect. It's both.

 

In any case, I really shouldn't have gotten into this discussion, because -- and not to be mean, or insulting -- I just don't care about whether something is linear or exponential. It's that people claim one or the other extreme, and I'm saying it's a combination of both.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

This thread is like mana from heaven

 

To see so many people argue about "the brokenness of Hero" from both sides, is just funny.

 

TO hero philes nothing is broken, or if it is is because it simulates genre.#

 

total crap, hero rules are a incosintant mess.

 

this whole 1d6 = double force debate, well its true.

 

i try to pull your head of with str 20, then i powerer up and do it with str 25 , double force. actual real lifting power, not hypothetical game balance. twice the energy.

 

anyone arguing other wise is wrong ( and that a fully formed oppinon ) . sorry its not politically correct to say some one wrong.

 

hell you wrong, whoever you are

So is it 1d6 or 5 points?

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Is this stance coming from a "realistic" perspective' date=' or from an "game-logic" perspective?[/quote']

Both, in this case. Note I said "non-explosive". Most such massive blasts are explosive in nature, such as when a meteor fragment hits.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Both' date=' in this case. Note I said "non-explosive". Most such massive blasts are explosive in nature, such as when a meteor fragment hits.[/quote']

Are events which are "explosive" in real life automatically explosive in HERO game terms?

 

Lets say that a character does a move-through on the Earth at VERY high speeds (meteor-like speeds). Would such an attack be considered explosive in HERO game terms?

 

Would you argue that, because a move-through (no matter what the speed involved) is considered "non-explosive" in HERO terms, it should only do damage to 1 hex?

 

Or are we going to start automatically granting "explosive" status to any attack which seems to warrent it?

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Are events which are "explosive" in real life automatically explosive in HERO game terms?

 

Lets say that a character does a move-through on the Earth at VERY high speeds (meteor-like speeds). Would such an attack be considered explosive in HERO game terms?

 

Would you argue that, because a move-through (no matter what the speed involved) is considered "non-explosive" in HERO terms, it should only do damage to 1 hex?

 

Or are we going to start automatically granting "explosive" status to any attack which seems to warrent it?

Well, there's real-world, game-world, and Hero-world...

 

I think Hero gets wonky at larger scales, but not because of the power levels themselves but more so in terms of the mass of targets and how that interacts.

 

An explosion to a human is not an explosion to the Earth...an explosion in Hero terms engulfs whole characters. An explosion on the Earth to the Earth is much like a single strike on a person.

 

I think at some size, targets move into a megascale world, I suppose you'd say. But I don't pretend to know the best way to handle it systemically.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Are events which are "explosive" in real life automatically explosive in HERO game terms?

 

Not automatically. You have to add the proper Advantages and/or Adders to properly simulate explosiveness in HERO terms.

 

Lets say that a character does a move-through on the Earth at VERY high speeds (meteor-like speeds). Would such an attack be considered explosive in HERO game terms?

 

Not unless you buy an Area of Effect Naked Advantage for use with Move Throughs. That one hex would be vaporized, though!

 

Would you argue that' date=' because a move-through (no matter what the speed involved) is considered "non-explosive" in HERO terms, it should only do damage to 1 hex?

 

Yep. Unless you buy that naked Advantage for it, in game terms, it affects only that one hex.

 

Or are we going to start automatically granting "explosive" status to any attack which seems to warrent it?

 

No, we buy it Area of Effect to simulate its real-world effects. All dpends on common sense/ GM discretion.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Well, there's real-world, game-world, and Hero-world...

 

I think Hero gets wonky at larger scales, but not because of the power levels themselves but more so in terms of the mass of targets and how that interacts.

 

An explosion to a human is not an explosion to the Earth...an explosion in Hero terms engulfs whole characters. An explosion on the Earth to the Earth is much like a single strike on a person.

 

I think at some size, targets move into a megascale world, I suppose you'd say. But I don't pretend to know the best way to handle it systemically.

I wasn't thinking on a planet scale when I ask the question. The question was simply about what you would rate as a "non-explosive attack." Would you limit someone who hit the ground at meteor-like speeds to damaging a single hex, or would you have the attack impact a larger area (maybe several hundred feet).

 

Given your previous statements, I'd sort of assume that you'd limit them to 1 hex, but I can't see that as a "realism based" limitation.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Not automatically. You have to add the proper Advantages and/or Adders to properly simulate explosiveness in HERO terms.

 

 

 

Not unless you buy an Area of Effect Naked Advantage for use with Move Throughs. That one hex would be vaporized, though!

 

 

 

Yep. Unless you buy that naked Advantage for it, in game terms, it affects only that one hex.

 

 

 

No, we buy it Area of Effect to simulate its real-world effects. All dpends on common sense/ GM discretion.

So how much growth do I have to buy before my character becomes immune to non-area-effect attacks?

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I wasn't thinking on a planet scale when I ask the question. The question was simply about what you would rate as a "non-explosive attack." Would you limit someone who hit the ground at meteor-like speeds to damaging a single hex, or would you have the attack impact a larger area (maybe several hundred feet).

 

Given your previous statements, I'd sort of assume that you'd limit them to 1 hex, but I can't see that as a "realism based" limitation.

A "character", probably limit to the hex, but it'd depend on the SFX of their ability. If a character could do this, I'd tend to assume a lot of rubber physics anyway.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

So how much growth do I have to buy before my character becomes immune to non-area-effect attacks?

 

No amount of Growth causes you to become immune to attacks without the Area of Effect Advantage. If the attack hits you, you take damage.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

A "character"' date=' probably limit to the hex, but it'd depend on the SFX of their ability. If a character could do this, I'd tend to assume a lot of rubber physics anyway.[/quote']

The character might be an Artificially Intelligent Combat Droid made of some hyper-dense futuristic material. Such a situation could take place in a fairly hard sci-fi setting, especially if the droid was willing to sacrifice itself to accomplish some objective.

 

The point is that the 1 hex limitation is not something that is based on "realism." Almost any mega power attack is going to have secondary explosive effects (all that energy has to go somewhere).

 

So (it seems to me) the reason for the 1 hex limitation must be based on "in-game logic."

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

No amount of Growth causes you to become immune to attacks without the Area of Effect Advantage. If the attack hits you' date=' you take damage.[/quote']

But 400 points of Growth would allow my character to be bigger than the Earth.

 

So what if I build Mr Planet (bigger than the Earth).

 

Can non-area-effect attacks harm him?

 

And what about Death Star sized vehicles? Will a normal attack only destroy 1 hex of such a vehicle, or can a non-area-effect attack take out the Death Star?

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

But 400 points of Growth would allow my character to be bigger than the Earth.

 

So what if I build Mr Planet (bigger than the Earth).

 

Can non-area-effect attacks harm him?

 

Yep. There's more on this in Star HERO.

 

And what about Death Star sized vehicles? Will a normal attack only destroy 1 hex of such a vehicle' date=' or can a non-area-effect attack take out the Death Star?[/quote']

 

According to the rules, a non-area-of-effect attack can indeed take out the Death Star. Even if you only do damage to one hex the whole time, the whole thing is destroyed once its BODY is gone. Arguably, you can say that that one hex is the Earth's crust, not the whole thing. Special rules for planets are in Star HERO.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

According to the rules, a non-area-of-effect attack can indeed take out the Death Star. Even if you only do damage to one hex the whole time, the whole thing is destroyed once its BODY is gone. Arguably, you can say that that one hex is the Earth's crust, not the whole thing. Special rules for planets are in Star HERO.

OK a single shot from a very large non-area-effect attack can destroy something like a borg cube. So where are you getting the idea that a non-area-effect attack can't destroy more than a single hex in one shot? Those two things sound contradictory.

 

Is there a specific place in the rule book where it makes the statement about the one-hex limit?

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Yep. There's more on this in Star HERO.

 

 

 

According to the rules, a non-area-of-effect attack can indeed take out the Death Star. Even if you only do damage to one hex the whole time, the whole thing is destroyed once its BODY is gone. Arguably, you can say that that one hex is the Earth's crust, not the whole thing. Special rules for planets are in Star HERO.

Gawd... I love Star HERO.

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

OK a single shot from a very large non-area-effect attack can destroy something like a borg cube. So where are you getting the idea that a non-area-effect attack can't destroy more than a single hex in one shot? Those two things sound contradictory.

 

Is there a specific place in the rule book where it makes the statement about the one-hex limit?

Having been in the Navy, I think I can safely assert that there are very few hexes on a major sea vessel that have the potential of destroying the whole ship if damaged. I think this issue could be very easily managed realistically by any competent GM, (and maybe even by "Skilled" or "Average" GM's ).

 

Zornwil's issue about a super-high dice attack targeting only one hex is interesting, but just as a comment, I don't think high dice attacks inherently should have any kind of Explosive properties beyond special effect. Knockback is itself a fairly explosive biproduct of most attacks. There is no reason not to simply add Explosive to these large-scale attacks, if it is appropriate. Conversely, balistic cavitation from a bullet inside the human body, could be considered a mini-explosion. A needle, maybe not so much, but its's all about scale. To a transdimensionally size-shifted character, that is another matter. Transferal of kinetic energy always has some kind of entropic dispersal effect. Zorwil is no doubt an extremely good GM, and has a very strong conceptual grasp of the HERO System, and its game machinics.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

The character might be an Artificially Intelligent Combat Droid made of some hyper-dense futuristic material. Such a situation could take place in a fairly hard sci-fi setting, especially if the droid was willing to sacrifice itself to accomplish some objective.

 

The point is that the 1 hex limitation is not something that is based on "realism." Almost any mega power attack is going to have secondary explosive effects (all that energy has to go somewhere).

 

So (it seems to me) the reason for the 1 hex limitation must be based on "in-game logic."

Yes, but it depends on what we're talking about.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Having been in the Navy, I think I can safely assert that there are very few hexes on a major sea vessel that have the potential of destroying the whole ship if damaged. I think this issue could be very easily managed realistically by any competent GM, (and maybe even by "Skilled" or "Average" GM's ).

 

Zornwil's issue about a super-high dice attack targeting only one hex is interesting, but just as a comment, I don't think high dice attacks inherently should have any kind of Explosive properties beyond special effect. Knockback is itself a fairly explosive biproduct of most attacks. There is no reason not to simply add Explosive to these large-scale attacks, if it is appropriate. Conversely, balistic cavitation from a bullet inside the human body, could be considered a mini-explosion. A needle, maybe not so much, but its's all about scale. To a transdimensionally size-shifted character, that is another matter. Transferal of kinetic energy always has some kind of entropic dispersal effect. Zorwil is no doubt an extremely good GM, and has a very strong conceptual grasp of the HERO System, and its game machinics.

(blush) Thanks.