Hero is broken

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Doug, where do you see me bringing up rules to support my position? I stated the obvious intent of a section of the rules; to wit the section on destroying objects. It is you and your allies who have decided to extrapolate those rules beyond all reason. You are quite correct, there are numerous examples of exponential progression in HERO just as there are examples of linear progression. What I am saying is that Hero System's entire use of exponential progression is wrong, both in game effects and in observable real world examples. I gave examples of several absurd results from using exponential damage and BODY which you chose to ignore, I can only presume because you have no effective rebuttal. Kindly produce a counterargument as to why a 75 STR brick can't destroy Earth in less than 2 minutes using the HERO rules. Without resorting to GM fiat, you can't. Any game system needs to be internally consistent in how it works.

 

I don't have any problem within my campaign using the rules as written, because IMHO nuclear weapons and planet-shattering attacks are plot devices and don't need that level of detail. I'm simply not so pedantic that I see a need to quantify how many dice the Death Star'sâ„¢ blast was. As far as I'm concerned it was awholelottad6. This is not an argument of taste, I am merely stating the somewhat obvious fact that in this particular regard the rules are broken.

 

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to grab my sledgehammer and destroy our planet to illustrate my point. I'll be back in 10 minutes.

I understand your position. I just don't think that's where the rules lead. I also think that your position makes it very hard to play a game that takes advantage of higher end comic book characters from DC and Marvel.

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Arthur

 

Dude (or dudette), you are usually quite sharp and good at the discussion game here, but this one was a swing and a miss.

 

We are talking about a RULES SYSTEM. EVERYTHING about it is contained in one book written by humans. There is no such thing as independent verifiable evidence on this subject. The author of this work is, by definition, the ultimate authority.

 

If George MacDonald were to tell us "Yes, I intended that each +1 DC represent a doubling of energy in Real World terms", then that would be IT. Fini. End of argument. The Author is always right as long as you agree to play his game (in novels or movies, this is a symbolic statement, here it is quite literal). [/b]

 

Um, not to burst your bubble, but your whole post is pretty much a giant appeal to authority.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Um, not to burst your bubble, but your whole post is pretty much a giant appeal to authority.

He's saying that any argument over someone else'e rules system has to be an appeal to authority, so you aren't bursting his bubble.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

I understand your position. I just don't think that's where the rules lead. I also think that your position makes it very hard to play a game that takes advantage of higher end comic book characters from DC and Marvel.

Doug, it seems to me as if you are rationalizing exponential damage progression solely for the purpose of playing higher end characters. My position does not make it in the least bit harder to play high-end characters. I see absolutely no problem with playing such characters or building them within HERO using linear damage, you just can't build them for 350 points. But there is not a darn thing wrong with building Thor or Superman for 1500 points and giving them both STR well above 100 or even 150. Why do you think HERO has a Cosmically Powerful category for supers?

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Doug, it seems to me as if you are rationalizing exponential damage progression solely for the purpose of playing higher end characters. My position does not make it in the least bit harder to play high-end characters. I see absolutely no problem with playing such characters or building them within HERO using linear damage, you just can't build them for 350 points. But there is not a darn thing wrong with building Thor or Superman for 1500 points and giving them both STR well above 100 or even 150. Why do you think HERO has a Cosmically Powerful category for supers?

Using exponential damage, you would have to spend about 1500 points or more to build Thor or Superman. Using the scale that I think you are suggesting, the mind boggles at how many points these characters would cost. I remember what you describe as proper defenses for a tank.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

Using exponential damage, you would have to spend about 1500 points or more to build Thor or Superman. Using the scale that I think you are suggesting, the mind boggles at how many points these characters would cost. I remember what you describe as proper defenses for a tank.

I dunno. Just how many dice did you anticipate Thor or Superman need? I would think 30-50d6 would do pretty decently to represent either hero, unless you go back to the absurd "Superman can move planets" version of the 70's. I am not suggesting changing the damage system itself, only redefining of what that damage represents. 50d6 is still one heck of a wallop no matter how you look at it. It just won't break our planet in two hits. Is that really such a bad thing? To paraphrase the Tick: I don't want the Earth destroyed, that's where I keep all my stuff.

 

Let's not rehash the tank thing now, shall we? That is one place where we will likely never see eye to eye. Besides, if we change to a linear damage scale then I think you will probably rethink your position on tank defenses anyway. (Which is of course the ultimate goal of my entire nefarious scheme.)

[Warp9]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I dunno. Just how many dice did you anticipate Thor or Superman need? I would think 30-50d6 would do pretty decently to represent either hero, unless you go back to the absurd "Superman can move planets" version of the 70's. I am not suggesting changing the damage system itself, only redefining of what that damage represents. 50d6 is still one heck of a wallop no matter how you look at it. It just won't break our planet in two hits. Is that really such a bad thing? To paraphrase the Tick: I don't want the Earth destroyed, that's where I keep all my stuff.

 

Let's not rehash the tank thing now, shall we? That is one place where we will likely never see eye to eye. Besides, if we change to a linear damage scale then I think you will probably rethink your position on tank defenses anyway. (Which is of course the ultimate goal of my entire nefarious scheme.)

 

First off, thank you for believing that I'm are real (and legitimate) poster, Trebuchet.

 

I don't know if Monolith was referring to me or not in is statement, but I might point out that I am not that new. I've been registered since Feb (as long as I could be on these new boards). I'm just generally more of a lurker than a poster.

 

 

 

Anyway, for a look at what linear damage might be like on a massive scale, I'd refer to GURPS.

 

Some Weapon stats from GURPS (linear system)

 

A big Particle Beam weapon on a Mech (from GURPS Mecha) does 6d6X500 (or 3000 d6)

 

A big star ship weapon (from GURPS Traveller) does 6d6X10,000 (or 60,000 d6)

 

A 1 Kton yield Nuke (from GURPS Mecha) does 12d6X200,000 (or 2.4 Million d6)

[Warp9]

Oh, and for a sense of comparison

 

a 9mm pistol does 2d6 in GURPS

 

a 15mm BMG does 16d6 in GURPS

[Kristopher]

Originally posted by Warp9

Oh, and for a sense of comparison

 

a 9mm pistol does 2d6 in GURPS

 

a 15mm BMG does 16d6 in GURPS

 

But that's GURPS, which, to be frank, stinks.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Warp9

First off, thank you for believing that I'm are real (and legitimate) poster, Trebuchet.

 

I don't know if Monolith was referring to me or not in is statement, but I might point out that I am not that new. I've been registered since Feb (as long as I could be on these new boards). I'm just generally more of a lurker than a poster.

 

 

 

Anyway, for a look at what linear damage might be like on a massive scale, I'd refer to GURPS.

 

Some Weapon stats from GURPS (linear system)

 

A big Particle Beam weapon on a Mech (from GURPS Mecha) does 6d6X500 (or 3000 d6)

 

A big star ship weapon (from GURPS Traveller) does 6d6X10,000 (or 60,000 d6)

 

A 1 Kton yield Nuke (from GURPS Mecha) does 12d6X200,000 (or 2.4 Million d6)

I don't know if Monolith was referring to you either, but it seemed at least to me that you were the most vocal "new" guy on this thread. (And most of us rate "newness" more by number of posts, not date of registration.) I have certainly not found your arguments in this thread to be abusive or derogatory in any way.

 

Jeez, I hope GURPS uses a Standard Effects rule or you'd spend your entire life rolling dice! I am certainly not proposing a GURPs type damage system either. That's taking the equation way too far in the other direction. There is nothing wrong with the HERO damage system except it's definition of what the scale of that damage is. Even in the comic books, beings who can shatter planets with a single blow are virtually unknown. But in Champions you can take out a planet with an absurdly puny character. The simple act of redefining Earth to have (say) 100 million BODY eliminates this problem. Then we can move on to kicking each other's spandex-clad behinds all over the planet without worrying that a couple of misses will kill our kitty.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Kristopher

Um, not to burst your bubble, but your whole post is pretty much a giant appeal to authority.

 

I know that. My point is that this is a case where the appeal to authority is perfectly valid, since everything is contained in one book.

 

We have a situation similar to that of the Christian Church. Everything they deal with is contained within one book, therefore any argument about doctrine falls within their Bible, and therefore can be resolved by appealing to its authority.

 

The only way to nullify that is not to be a Christian - at that point you are not agreeing to play by their rules. In a very similar way, as long as you are agreeing to play Hero, anything can be resolved by an appeal to the authority of the rulebook. The rules of logical fallacies can easily be invalid within certain strict parameters.

 

Now, just as in religious circles, the debate is how to relate the doctrine to real life. The math of the exponential is quite clear; the results at very high power levels may seem counterintuitive, but they do follow.

 

Now, the STR 60 brick. He can do, what, 16d with a Haymaker? 16 BODY per attack. What's the DEF and BODY of a hex of the planet? The DEF must vary, but I would imagine bedrock would be around DEF 6 or so, at least. He'd wear himself out before doing more than creating a large crater. Sure, you could create a specialized planet-killer with everything at 0 END; it would still take a very long time to appreciably damage the Earth.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Kristopher

But that's GURPS, which, to be frank, stinks.

 

GURPS was once a great system. However, it fragmented into the mass of special cases and different rules subsets that it was supposed to save me from.

 

Had they done a Hero-style power creation toolkit on top of GURPS' excellent base system (for handling time in combat and such), it would have kicked ass.

 

Whether you like the game or not, it DOES show what linear damage looks like in an RPG. 12d is defined to be exactly twice as much RL energy as 6d wherever possible.

 

GURPS' version of Standard Effect is the best I've ever seen: high numbers of dice are done by a 'small number of dice x multiple' system. Some examples:

 

24d = 6dx4

 

25d = 5dx5

 

26d = 13dx2

 

27d = 3dx9

 

The idea is to make the base at least 3d but no more than 8d, hopefully.

 

It gets a little more complicated with numbers that don't factor well (note 26d). There really is no easy way around it. GURPS Autoduel is really weird this way: whoever wrote it designed the weapons using Vehicles, but a lot of them do a prime number of dice! 19d and 23d, etc. I personally redefined those weapons a bit into 5dx4 and 6dx4, etc.

 

You can do the same thing in Hero. Doing 18d with that pushed Haymaker? Roll 6d, add up STN and BOD, then multiply by 3.

[Arthur]

Originally posted by Warp9

First off, thank you for believing that I'm are real (and legitimate) poster, Trebuchet.

 

FWIW, I'll second that. I was a bit shocked that anybody could even remotely consider you a troll. Any resemblance between an abusive poster and you is nonexistent.

 

If anything, I have a bad habit of becoming a bit too strident. If I ever come across as personally insulting to anybody, please let me know so I can take a chill pill. Sometimes I don't realize how abrasive I'm getting.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by Arthur

FWIW, I'll second that. I was a bit shocked that anybody could even remotely consider you a troll. Any resemblance between an abusive poster and you is nonexistent.

First off, I do not consider him to be a troll. I just stated that it would not surprise me if several of the newer people posting were not the same troll. We tend to forget that Shadow (fill in the blank) had nearly 200 posts between his 6 accounts before he went off the deep end. He did not post only once and then go insane. It would not surprise me at all to find him posting here again under another half-dozen accounts; and all of those posts under those accounts appearing quite rational.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Its very obvious that Heros basic damage dice are based on a somewhat exponential progression. Anyone with basic math skills can figure that one out.

 

However, if you want to ignore that yourself, there's nothing wrong with that. People shouldn't rag on you for it, but neither should you rag on people for accepting the apparent exponential nature of Heros damage system.

 

In other words, its kinda silly to argue about, isn't it?

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Arthur

Now, the STR 60 brick. He can do, what, 16d with a Haymaker? 16 BODY per attack. What's the DEF and BODY of a hex of the planet? The DEF must vary, but I would imagine bedrock would be around DEF 6 or so, at least. He'd wear himself out before doing more than creating a large crater. Sure, you could create a specialized planet-killer with everything at 0 END; it would still take a very long time to appreciably damage the Earth.

Yes, but that's not the way it works in HERO. Why would he get tired? A 60 STR brick haymakering does 16 BODY on average. I calculated rock as having 7 DEF for the purposes of my example (When I did my original calculations I didn't even take Haymakering into account). Star Hero says Earth has 86 BODY. By the rules as written, if our brick hits Earth once it now has 77 BODY left. He hits it again 3 seconds later: 68 BODY. Again: 59 BODY. Again: 50 BODY.

 

So in a single 12 second Turn with just 4 blows our generic 4 SPD brick has managed to reduce Earth's BODY by 41%, and he still has 4 more Turns left before he has even gone a full minute. That's how the rules for breaking objects "work" in Hero: When an object has taken all of it's BODY it is "broken." When it's taken 2X it's BODY it is destroyed. Heck, given a couple of minutes even a martial artist with a puny 8d6 attack could destroy a planet in mere moments. Now I ask you: Does that make any sense at all? Or would it make more sense to conclude that planets and other celestial bodies operate on a scale far beyond HERO's rules for breaking objects, and hence use entirely different rules?

 

Of course this is a ridiculous example, but so is the assertation that Earth has only 86 BODY and/or would be destroyed with a 100d6 attack.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Does that make any sense at all? Or would it make more sense to conclude that planets and other celestial bodies operate on a scale far beyond HERO's rules for breaking objects, and hence use entirely different rules?

 

 

I agree with you on this post, but I confess that I just had a nerve-wracking fear-inducing must-have-a-drink flash of the letters S.D.C. followed by a flash of the letters M.D.C. before my eyes.

 

The Earth has MEGA BODY!!!!

 

Earth: 81 Body -- Megascale at the planetary object level. To damage it your attack must be purchased at the same level of megascale...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by D-Man

I agree with you on this post, but I confess that I just had a nerve-wracking fear-inducing must-have-a-drink flash of the letters S.D.C. followed by a flash of the letters M.D.C. before my eyes.

 

The Earth has MEGA BODY!!!!

 

Earth: 81 Body -- Megascale at the planetary object level. To damage it your attack must be purchased at the same level of megascale...

That way lies madness!

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Agent X

That way lies madness!

That's OK, we're all nuts anyway.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

That's OK, we're all nuts anyway.

Obliviously, I mean obviously.

[Kristopher]

I'm going to have to leave work early and stop by the liquor store after the Paladium flashback you just induced.

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Kristopher

I'm going to have to leave work early and stop by the liquor store after the Paladium flashback you just induced.

 

I do what I can.

[Demonsong]

All right, we will have none of that Palladium bashing. You guys play HERO, I would think that a concept as simple as S.D.C and M.D.C. wouldn’t overwhelm you. It’s a good system. Not perfect by any means but It’s not that Bad!

 

Demonsong

[Vondy]

Originally posted by Demonsong

All right, we will have none of that Palladium bashing. You guys play HERO, I would think that a concept as simple as S.D.C and M.D.C. wouldn’t overwhelm you. It’s a good system. Not perfect by any means but It’s not that Bad!

 

Demonsong

 

It was an awesone system... until rifts.

 

D-Man goes to belt back another martini in the hopes of fogetting all about the horror that is MDC abuse.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Here's why I correlate X2 energy per +1 DC in Hero:

 

Body: The body of living creatures and vehicles is gained at a rate of +1 Body per X2 Mass. +3 Body per X2 height or length.

 

Defense: Armor gains +2 Def per X2 mass. Check the armor table in the equipment section.

 

Damage: Each DC has a potential of doing 2 Body damage (this varies for killing damage, but averages out to 2 body per DC).

 

Comparison: Armor has to be twice as massive/tough to completely protect against a gain of +1DC.

 

DEF/DC

2/1

4/2

6/3

8/4

10/5

12/6

14/7

16/8

18/9

20/10

etc...

 

Thus, it requires a Defense of 20 to completely protect someone/thing against a 10 DC attack (note, this accounts for Body damage only). It is well known in Hero, that DEF20+ is the realm of Tank armor.

 

The progression seems exponential at this juncture. This is where I tend to leave it, as it makes sense to me and I've had no problem using this formula (X2 KE = +1DC) to represent real-world weapons such as Infantry weapons and vehicular cannons, such as the M256 Rheinmetal (120mm cannon putting out around 10Mj of Energy...comes out to about 6D6+1K or 19DC in my book)

 

Of course, you must account for such things as Killing attacks vs Normal attacks. Killing attacks are much more efficient at destroying soft targets. Normal Attacks may have high energy, but cannot deliever it efficiently (thus their inability to bypass Normal Defenses).

In addition, Advantage adjust this as well. AP, PEN, +1 StunX, etc can all represent various methods of delivering damage beyond the norm. Therein lies your variables based on situation.

Thus, Grond may have a punch thats equivalent to a 105mm cannon, but it doesn't penetrate armor like an APDS shell does. He's not going to get his 16D6 punch to routinely punch through tank armor (unless he's lucky rolling the dice). He is strong enough to damage the tank, but in general, the tank armor is sufficient to repell his attack. An attack from a tank cannon with the same energy will likely punch through the tank because of the advantages applied to the attack (AP shell) which modifies how the damage is delivered.

 

At least, thats how I see it.

 

DC is your base damage, which is based upon the principle of X2 KE = +1DC with specifics being represented via Advantages and Limtations...