Hero is broken

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I'm not mad. Only crazy people get emotional at a message board.

 

Oh, so you call people names and insult them when in a happy mood.

 

Whatever.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Oh, so you call people names and insult them when in a happy mood.

 

Whatever.

 

Yes! It's text messaging. I don't know you. I get excited and eager to proffer my opinions, because it's intellectually stimulating to exchange ideas with other intellectual persons; beyond that, it's roleplaying the way I tend to feel about my opinions.

 

And stop saying "Whatever," you sound like an angsty teen.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Yes! It's text messaging. I don't know you. I get excited and eager to proffer my opinions

 

You get excited and eager to call people names?

 

Ok.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

You get excited and eager to call people names?

 

Ok.

 

No, I get excited about sharing ideas. As I said, the rest is a sort of roleplaying.

 

You're right, though, I shouldn't call people names. I should instead resort to fantabulously heavy sarcasm, negativity, and super-biased criticism like my good friend Fox1.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

You're right' date=' though, I shouldn't call people names. I should instead resort to fantabulously heavy sarcasm, negativity, and super-biased criticism like my good friend Fox1.[/quote']

 

If you could restrict your 'role-playing' to solely matters of fact instead of perference, I'd be ok with whatever you do.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

If you could restrict your 'role-playing' to solely matters of fact instead of perference' date=' I'd be ok with whatever you do.[/quote']

 

ROFL. All I am saying is that you won't hear me yelling "What the hell!?" and see me bang my fist on the PC desk over a conversation on a message board. I don't know what your opinion of me is, precisely, but I'll say that I've been on many message boards in my time, several of which I now moderate. Yes, sometimes we're insulting. We argue. We congratulate. But it's not the same as in real life. Some people lose sight of that, and that's not healthy.

 

Anyway, I know what you mean. I see some so-called "preferences" in a very specific light, and the fact that I see them that way is -- indeed -- a fact.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Hero is broken

 

to answer the original question, i don't think hero is broken, but i mostly use it for fantasy

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

However Warp 9 has IMO gone far enough in his "HERO is Broken" stance that its time we agree with him, i.e. For Warp 9, HERO is broken. He needs to move on to another game.

 

Given your stance on HERO I'm not sure what to say to that:

 

(This is your quote from the thread "Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay" : Post #66)

 

If there was a *good* Marvel Superhero game on the market, I'd drop HERO like a rock.

And I'm not even going to touch those "powers of 1.5777838437" strangeness that you use instead of the normal powers of 2.

 

Of the two of us, you are are probably the one who thinks HERO is most broken.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I've searched long and hard to find HERO. Personal preferences aside, the realism I know Warp9 craves cannot be found anywhere outside of physics equations.

Care to explain what you base that statement on?

 

Here are some relevant quotes I've made on the matter in the past:

 

I'd be happy with using the energy of the attack as a basis for damage. It is not perfect, but generally it is good enough for me.

I am more interested in a system that gives broad reasonably accurate "ball-park" answers to general situations, rather than one which gets too specific over a narrow range.

 

And people have actually complained about my approach being too simplistic:

 

(a quote by Kristopher "Exponential VS Linear ?" Post #87)

 

One of the things that keeps coming up is the fallacy that energy/force and damage are directly proportional -- in the real world, that's just not true. There are so many other factors involved, and there are many examples in which increasing energy or force delivered onto the target has diminishing returns.

I am not the one who is asking for ultra-realism here.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Warp 9 does not seek realism. Much of he wants is actually unrealistic.

I should have read this before posting my own comments to Black Lotus

 

He just seeks a different approach whose failure points are outside his own personal tunnel vision.

 

Or he may be the kind of person that will never be happy with anything.

 

Whatever the case, it's time he moved on.

I'm probably never perfectly happy with anything (it's just my nature). . . . But at least I'm not ready to "drop HERO like a Rock" as some others around here are.

 

 

It bills itself as a free rpg (or did the last I checked) to be used in the same role as HERO or GURPS.

 

The designer is a good guy, but like Warp 9 had major problems with the mix of linear and EXP mechanics in HERO (and other issues). So he went out and made his own game.

 

I've heard good things about it although I've never played it. The noted issues in HERO don't bother me, as a result his solutions didn't offer me any reason to change.

I'll have to check that one out--sounds cool

 

Of course, that doesn't mean that I'm ready to "drop HERO like a Rock"

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Given your stance on HERO I'm not sure what to say to that:

 

My stance where I said that if a better more specific game came along I'd switch from HERO in a flash?

 

I don't see that as a negative stance on HERO. I see it as a desire for, and willingness to change to better and more suitable games.

 

I don't see any, so there won't be any switching in the near future. I've been waiting for 20 years after all.

 

 

And I'm not even going to touch those "powers of 1.5777838437" strangeness that you use instead of the normal powers of 2.

 

Of the two of us, you are are probably the one who thinks HERO is most broken.

 

I change the progression on one chart to match the Marvel setting and to provide me with a good range of dice for modeling that setting.

 

That's a far cry from the type of changes you wish to make.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I change the progression on one chart to match the Marvel setting and to provide me with a good range of dice for modeling that setting.

 

That's a far cry from the type of changes you wish to make.

Of course there are all the firearm changes that you've made. . . .

 

And if you change the STR progression, what happens to growth, and density increase? Do you still gain X2 Mass and X2 STR for each 5 points? Do you grow 2 X tall for every 15 points? Or do you change that as well? If growth gives 1.577847 X Mass and STR along with +1 BODY, do you also rewrite the Breaking things rule so that it is based on +1 BODY per each 1.577847 X Mass?

 

 

 

As for myself, I only started pushing the concept of the exponential changes after Zornwil started up his committee. Before this thread was brought back from the dead (in its previous life), I was only saying that there was evidence to believe that HERO in logarithmic in nature. I was not proposing any changes to the system.

 

The Exponential VS Linear thing is the top of my "HERO-change-wish-list," but it is not a mega-big issue for me. After using the Optional Velocity Factor stuff I'm actually fairly happy with the system right out of the book.

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Of course there are all the firearm changes that you've made. . . .

 

Just different contructions using consistent measures.

 

It's still the same game.

 

And if you change the STR progression, what happens to growth, and density increase?

 

They change as well, but those powers are almost never used in my games anyway.

 

 

do you also rewrite the Breaking things rule so that it is based on +1 BODY per each 1.577847 X Mass?

 

Haven't bothered.

 

There no good way to make those numbers realistic with any single progression, so it's an unimportant matter to me.

 

 

 

The Exponential VS Linear thing is the top of my "HERO-change-wish-list," but it is not a mega-big issue for me. After using the Optional Velocity Factor stuff I'm actually fairly happy with the system right out of the book.

 

That's an quite the sendate change after all the noise you've caused.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

That's an quite the sendate change after all the noise you've caused.

Well it IS the top of my wish list!

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: This Thread is broken

 

I can't keep silent on this issue any longer. I haven't read the entire thread, but you're welcome to try and convince me that it would be worth my time. It's right there in the very first post: the false statement that some people seem to cling to in the face of all the facts that I can see.

 

HERO SYSTEM IS NOT EXPONENTIAL!

 

It is LINEAR! Though and through, with only about seven exceptions:

1) Lifting capacity from STR. (Notice that all other aspects of STR are linear.)

2) Increased Non-Combat multiples for Movement Powers (and related Powers like Stretching).

3) The MegaScale Advantage.

4) A few "extended" Advantages like Increased Range and Increased Area.

5) The size and mass results for Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase.

6) The Range Modifier.

7) A few Enhanced Sense bits like Rapid Sense, Telescopic and Microscopic.

 

Is there anything else I forgot? Notice that many of the above things really don't come into play that often. YMMV, but I hardly ever see #'s 3, 4, and 7. Compare that to all the central "meat and potatoes" bits of the system that always come into play:

 

1) Damage: 5 points for 1d6, 10 points for 2d6, 15 points for 3d6, 20 points for 4d6 - Linear.

2) Defenses: 1 point for 1 PD, 2 points for 2 PD, 2 points for 3 PD - linear.

3) Speed: 10 points for 1 action per turn, 20 points for 2 actions per turn, etc. - Linear.

4) Movement (combat): 2 points for 1", 4 points for 2", 6 points for 3", 8 points for 4" - linear.

5) Skills (combat and otherwise): 2 points for +1, 4 point for +2, 6 points for +3 - linear.

6) Characteristics: 2 points for 1 BODY, 4 points for 2 BODY, etc., 1 point for 1 INT, 2 points for 2 INT, etc. - Linear.

7) Perks: 1 point for a 5-pt Base/Vehicle/Follower, 2 points for a 10-point Base/Vehicle/Follower, 3 points for a 15-point Base/Vehicle/Follower - Linear. (Oh, yeah. That reminds me of one other exponential aspect - the +5 for x2 equipment/followers, but that also doesn't come into play that often. Most people use the extra equipment as backups only, rather than for in-play multiple powers.)

 

All the really essential parts of HERO are linear. The exponential stuff is thrown in because every once in a while, Superman is going to need to lift the Statue of Liberty, or a star ship is going to need to get to another planet really fast, or something like that.

 

Yes, I know it says somewhere that a stick of dynamite does 1d6 K, while it takes 4 sticks to do 2d6 K, but it's still linear - because a stick of dynamite is not a game construct - a d6 K is.

[Mister E]

Re: This Thread is broken

 

I can't keep silent on this issue any longer. I haven't read the entire thread, but you're welcome to try and convince me that it would be worth my time. It's right there in the very first post: the false statement that some people seem to cling to in the face of all the facts that I can see.

 

HERO SYSTEM IS NOT EXPONENTIAL!

 

It is LINEAR! Though and through, with only about seven exceptions:

1) Lifting capacity from STR. (Notice that all other aspects of STR are linear.)

2) Increased Non-Combat multiples for Movement Powers (and related Powers like Stretching).

3) The MegaScale Advantage.

4) A few "extended" Advantages like Increased Range and Increased Area.

5) The size and mass results for Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase.

6) The Range Modifier.

7) A few Enhanced Sense bits like Rapid Sense, Telescopic and Microscopic.

 

Is there anything else I forgot? Notice that many of the above things really don't come into play that often. YMMV, but I hardly ever see #'s 3, 4, and 7. Compare that to all the central "meat and potatoes" bits of the system that always come into play:

 

1) Damage: 5 points for 1d6, 10 points for 2d6, 15 points for 3d6, 20 points for 4d6 - Linear.

2) Defenses: 1 point for 1 PD, 2 points for 2 PD, 2 points for 3 PD - linear.

3) Speed: 10 points for 1 action per turn, 20 points for 2 actions per turn, etc. - Linear.

4) Movement (combat): 2 points for 1", 4 points for 2", 6 points for 3", 8 points for 4" - linear.

5) Skills (combat and otherwise): 2 points for +1, 4 point for +2, 6 points for +3 - linear.

6) Characteristics: 2 points for 1 BODY, 4 points for 2 BODY, etc., 1 point for 1 INT, 2 points for 2 INT, etc. - Linear.

7) Perks: 1 point for a 5-pt Base/Vehicle/Follower, 2 points for a 10-point Base/Vehicle/Follower, 3 points for a 15-point Base/Vehicle/Follower - Linear. (Oh, yeah. That reminds me of one other exponential aspect - the +5 for x2 equipment/followers, but that also doesn't come into play that often. Most people use the extra equipment as backups only, rather than for in-play multiple powers.)

 

All the really essential parts of HERO are linear. The exponential stuff is thrown in because every once in a while, Superman is going to need to lift the Statue of Liberty, or a star ship is going to need to get to another planet really fast, or something like that.

 

Yes, I know it says somewhere that a stick of dynamite does 1d6 K, while it takes 4 sticks to do 2d6 K, but it's still linear - because a stick of dynamite is not a game construct - a d6 K is.

So you think a 20 DC attack does twice the damage of a 10 DC attack? Hm... interesting.

 

No seriously, BODY is exponential by increments of +1, the same that damage is exponential by increments of +1d6. Check this out:

 

If the Mass of any object is doubled, it gains +1 BODY. If a character gains +5 STR, it gains +1d6 DC's, and is able to do an average of +1 BODY damage per hit.

 

+5 STR = +1d6 DC's = +1 BODY = x2 Mass (a measurable aspect of the physical world)

 

... the same as...

 

+5 STR = x2 Lifting Weight (likewise, a measurable aspect of the physical world)

 

These quotes were taken from the "What is Casual STR meant to be?" Thread...

The point where everything becomes wonkie, is where characters come in. A character can have whatever BODY he wants, and likewise, isn't going to be considered 'destroyed' until receiving twice his BODY in damage. This is totally cool, however, because heroes are supposed to contain some ineffable quality of story-telling that makes them much more than the sum of their base parts... and, the system distinguishes a difference between inanimate objects, and biological life-forms, for the purpose of game-play.

 

Another place where this concept of doubling breaks down, is in any situation beyond simple doubling, and I think this is your argument. 12 BODY is four times the material of 10 BODY, but without DEF, with 50 STR, you will only need to hit it twice... Likewise, with an object with 20 BODY, which (doing the math in my head) I think is 1248 times the material... two puches should do it. Oh well...

The only correct answer to "How much more powerful is an attack with an extra 1d6 of damage?" is "One more d6." It's not quantifiable beyond that.

You are' date=' of course, right. However, despite the fact that the exponential factor of damage and BODY can only be shown accurately in a few scenarios before it breaks down into a more linear system, I think, at its heart, that this was the intended quality the system is meant to have... at least theoretically.[/quote']

[Kristopher]

Re: Hero is broken

 

A 20d6 attack does twice as much damage, before defenses, as a 10d6 attack. Simple as that. The average on the 20d6 attack is 70, while the average on the 10d6 attack is 35. Minimums are 20 vs 10, and maximums are 120 vs 60. Any way you look at it, 20d6 is double the 10d6.

 

You can talk about how the 20d6 attack is supposed to be something like 512 times the energy of a 10d6 attack, but that's pretty much pointless.

 

As for +1 BODY = x2 MASS, that's nothing but a pile of problems, which ends up with many supermassive objects far too easy to destroy.

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Effectiveness is neither linear nor exponential. Force may be doubling per 5 CP, as far as I'm concerned the jury is out as to the precise in-game consequences, though.

 

Anyway, the point is, a 5d6 EB against a target may have a negligible effect, whereas a 6d6 will normally be harmful, and a 7d6 is devastating, and beyond that quickly sends the victim into la-la land.

 

I don't find the +1 BOD = x2 Mass so critically problematic, the simple problem is the entire nature of inflicting damage on a small subset of a large object, and that's a different issue. A 500d6 attack that hits 1 hex is still only 1 hex of the Earth. There should be similar questions in regard to a pin-prick attack against a person IF that attack were truly so microscopic and without explosive ramifications.

[Vorsch]

Re: Hero is broken

 

This thread is like mana from heaven

 

To see so many people argue about "the brokenness of Hero" from both sides, is just funny.

 

TO hero philes nothing is broken, or if it is is because it simulates genre.#

 

total crap, hero rules are a incosintant mess.

 

this whole 1d6 = double force debate, well its true.

 

i try to pull your head of with str 20, then i powerer up and do it with str 25 , double force. actual real lifting power, not hypothetical game balance. twice the energy.

 

anyone arguing other wise is wrong ( and that a fully formed oppinon ) . sorry its not politically correct to say some one wrong.

 

hell you wrong, whoever you are

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: This Thread is broken

 

So you think a 20 DC attack does twice the damage of a 10 DC attack? Hm... interesting.

 

Yes, a 20 DC attack causes precisely twice as much damage as a 10 DC attack. Here, let me go get my dice and rulebook. Ah yes, 10d6 and 20d6. (10d6 x 2) = 20d6. That's certainly linear. Even if you assert that it has "an exponential effect", and I know why you do -- the BODY of objects, which I will address later -- it's a linear progression.

 

No seriously, BODY is exponential by increments of +1, the same that damage is exponential by increments of +1d6. Check this out:

 

If the Mass of any object is doubled, it gains +1 BODY. If a character gains +5 STR, it gains +1d6 DC's, and is able to do an average of +1 BODY damage per hit.

 

All that proves is that being bigger doesn't make you equally more resilient, since in game terms, a 15-year-old girl can have more BODY than a Mack truck, within NCM, no less. The slow progression of Mass:Body ratio is necessary unless you want every large building in a campaign to withstand the force of an atomic bomb. There's more to BODY than just Mass. That's why a doubling of mass does NOT equal a doubling of BODY. Just because you can compare the two values and come up with an exponential progression, does not mean the whole group of attributes is exponential.

 

Also, DEF progression is linear, instead of exponential. So why just use BODY to measure? Why not include the DEF of object in there with your calculations?

 

+5 STR = +1d6 DC's = +1 BODY = x2 Mass (a measurable aspect of the physical world)

 

... the same as...

 

+5 STR = x2 Lifting Weight (likewise, a measurable aspect of the physical world)

 

If +5 STR = x2 Lifting Weight, it's linear. Do you know why? When talking about BODY:Mass, Body is at first set to 10. However, when the Mass of the object doubles, you only get +1 BODY. +5 STR equals a doubling of Lifting Weight, believe it or not, is a linear progression. A multiplicative linear progression, but linear nonetheless.

[Warp9]

Re: This Thread is broken

 

All that proves is that being bigger doesn't make you equally more resilient, since in game terms, a 15-year-old girl can have more BODY than a Mack truck, within NCM, no less. The slow progression of Mass:Body ratio is necessary unless you want every large building in a campaign to withstand the force of an atomic bomb.

No it's not.

 

In GURPS 3rd ed a battle ship has 25,000 hit points, and a Nuke can do 1,000,000+ points of damage.

 

If +5 STR = x2 Lifting Weight, it's linear. Do you know why? When talking about BODY:Mass, Body is at first set to 10. However, when the Mass of the object doubles, you only get +1 BODY. +5 STR equals a doubling of Lifting Weight, believe it or not, is a linear progression. A multiplicative linear progression, but linear nonetheless.

I think perhaps the discussion has exceeded your grasp of mathematics.

 

The term "linear" relates to the graph of a given equation.

 

y = x will give you a graph of a line (it is linear)

y = 2x will also give you a graph of a line (it is linear)

y = 25/17 x will also give you a graph of a line (it is linear)

 

However, the lift formula in terms of kg lifted will give the following formula: y = 25 * 2^(x/5) such a formula will not give you a graph of a line, instead it will create an exponential curve. It is because of this reason that we say that it is not linear progression.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: This Thread is broken

 

No it's not.

 

In GURPS 3rd ed a battle ship has 25,000 hit points, and a Nuke can do 1,000,000+ points of damage.

 

We're not discussing GURPS.

 

I think perhaps the discussion has exceeded your grasp of mathematics.

 

The term "linear" relates to the graph of a given equation.

 

y = x will give you a graph of a line (it is linear)

y = 2x will also give you a graph of a line (it is linear)

y = 25/17 x will also give you a graph of a line (it is linear)

 

However, the lift formula in terms of kg lifted will give the following formula: y = 25 * 2^(x/5) such a formula will not give you a graph of a line, instead it will create an exponential curve. It is because of this reason that we say that it is not linear progression.

 

I'm probably wrong insofar as my facts are concerned, since math is not my forte, and I hadn't had my coffee yet when I wrote that post (note: convenient, yet worthless excuse there). Fortunately, I'm more interested in how smoothly/ relaistically the game can be run as-is than in whether certain aspects are linear or exponential.

 

I stand by this, though: STR progresses, and is purchased, in a linear fashion. Many of its effects, such as its role in Character vs. Character combat, are linear: Characters buy BODY and DEF a point at a time, same with STR; there's no exponential component. However, SOME of the game effects of STR are exponential, for example: when observing the effects of linear STR on, say, the BODY of a succession of generic, unaltered inanimate objects.

[Trebuchet]

Re: This Thread is broken

 

If the Mass of any object is doubled' date=' it gains +1 BODY.[/quote']I am not, and never have been, of the "Damage is Exponential in HERO" school of thought. If you're going to go about quoting me, at least try to understand the point I was making. I was not supporting your position in any way, shape, or form.

 

Your statement is accurate only so far as inanimate objects go. It quite clearly does not apply to characters, player- or otherwise. Since a character must be driven equal to his BODY below 0 BODY in order to be killed, quite clearly each +1 pip of BODY is not doing twice the damage to a character. It takes twice as many dice to kill in a single hit. Damage in HERO is strictly linear except versus inanimate objects; which in HERO generally amount to mere props. Stop ignoring the inconvenient facts that disrupt your little theory.

 

ExampleMan has 10 BODY and zero PD & ED. Villain Guy shoots him with a 10d6 EB, which on average does 10 BODY to Exampleman. ExampleMan has 10 BODY left before he dies at -10 BODY. If Villain Guy buys up his EB to 11d6 with XP, he still won't kill ExampleMan in one shot. Villain Guy must buy his EB up to 20d6 to be assured of a one-shot-kill on ExampleMan. Thus, it requires 20d6 to be "twice as powerful" as 10d6, not 11d6. Any rational definition of "twice as powerful" means it should be able to accomplish the same thing in half the time in every case. Your reasoning fails even if you compare Character Points: 10 CP buys +2d6 to an EB or STR damage, which as I illustrated above is very clearly not twice as powerful. 10 CP of BODY buys +5 BODY, making the character literally 50% harder to kill than a character with 10 BODY. If ExampleMan buys 10 CP of BODY each time Villain Guy buys +2d6 to his EB, Villain Guy will never be able to kill ExampleMan in one shot.

 

In fact, after a while ExampleMan will be able to start spending his CP on other things, because his toughness from being killed is increasing far faster than Villain Guy's ability to kill him. Maybe ExampleMan can finally buy that base in the Caribbean he's always dreamed about...

[Warp9]

Re: This Thread is broken

 

I can't keep silent on this issue any longer. I haven't read the entire thread, but you're welcome to try and convince me that it would be worth my time. It's right there in the very first post: the false statement that some people seem to cling to in the face of all the facts that I can see.

 

HERO SYSTEM IS NOT EXPONENTIAL!

 

It is LINEAR! Though and through, with only about seven exceptions:

1) Lifting capacity from STR. (Notice that all other aspects of STR are linear.)

2) Increased Non-Combat multiples for Movement Powers (and related Powers like Stretching).

3) The MegaScale Advantage.

4) A few "extended" Advantages like Increased Range and Increased Area.

5) The size and mass results for Growth, Shrinking, and Density Increase.

6) The Range Modifier.

7) A few Enhanced Sense bits like Rapid Sense, Telescopic and Microscopic.

It seems like you've missed out on a number of examples.

 

"The Breaking things" section of the book provides a strong argument for an exponential nature of the game. Both the breaking of normal objects and walls work on an exponential basis.

 

You might notice that a 30d6 attack will do knock-back to an aircraft carrier, which seems pretty exponential to me (although I admit that the actual distance of knock-back is linear).

 

You might also check out the optional velocity chart (FREd pages 292-293), which is described in the book as being "more realistic." It also works on an exponential basis.

 

1) Damage: 5 points for 1d6, 10 points for 2d6, 15 points for 3d6, 20 points for 4d6 - Linear.

2) Defenses: 1 point for 1 PD, 2 points for 2 PD, 2 points for 3 PD - linear.

3) Speed: 10 points for 1 action per turn, 20 points for 2 actions per turn, etc. - Linear.

4) Movement (combat): 2 points for 1", 4 points for 2", 6 points for 3", 8 points for 4" - linear.

5) Skills (combat and otherwise): 2 points for +1, 4 point for +2, 6 points for +3 - linear.

6) Characteristics: 2 points for 1 BODY, 4 points for 2 BODY, etc., 1 point for 1 INT, 2 points for 2 INT, etc. - Linear.

Many (not all) of the factors you've described as "linear" involve the cost of buying extra points, which has nothing to do with the argument being made.

 

The argument being made is: X points of Hero = an exponential Y increase in effective ability.

 

The cost of each point of X ability during character development has nothing to do with the end result that such an ability gives in the game world.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

As for +1 BODY = x2 MASS' date=' that's nothing but a pile of problems, which ends up with many supermassive objects far too easy to destroy.[/quote']

So how would you rate objects? Would every aircraft carrier have 1 million BODY?