Hero is broken

[Kristopher]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Keep in mind that a naval vessel doesn't have to be reduced to nothingness to render it "dead", any more than a person does. Putting a 1-hex hole in the ship below the waterline might just sink it -- or it might not, depending on other factors.

 

Also keep in mind that for ships' hulls, thickness matters along with what they're made of. 24" thick steel is a lot harder to damage or destroy than 4" thick steel.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hero is broken

 

It's been a while since I read this whole thread so I may have forgotten if this was mentioned already.

 

It seems that (for the purposes of this thread) the biggest issue that comes up with regards to Hero's perceived "brokeness" is at the interface between Character rules and vehicle rules.

 

Now I think the ability to describe Characters and Vehicles using the same language/rules is quite compelling, however it suffers from two important problems:

1. Vehicles have very different "hit location" vulnerabilites, such that they drastically effect what damage should do to them

2. Vehicles (in general) are several orders of magnitude larger than Characters, which also drastically effect what damage should/could do to them.

 

No matter how good the penetrating/armor piercing power of a man portable weapon (when discussing mundane attacks) there is almost no way for it to destroy/sink a Battleship. You could knock out specific systems that are exposed on a Battleship, but the superstructure/sea worthiness of the vestle is in no way threatened. So, a .50 M2 Browning is not going to do anything to a battleship. Even if it could get through the ship's DEF what is a 1-2" hole going to do to a Battleship? Even if it was below the waterline. Nothing.

 

I think there needs to be some rules expansion with regards to damaging massive objects, possible defining something akin to "mega-damage" or "mega-body", this also segues into the problem of an entire planet having only 30-40 Body.

 

What do you fellow Herophiles think?

What sort of rules could be added to emiliarate some of these thorny issues?

 

TB

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Keep in mind that a naval vessel doesn't have to be reduced to nothingness to render it "dead"' date=' any more than a person does. [b']Putting a 1-hex hole in the ship below the waterline might just sink it.[/b]

 

Also keep in mind that for ships' hulls, thickness matters along with what they're made of. 24" thick steel is a lot harder to damage or destroy than 4" thick steel.

While I agree that this is true in principle, the USS Cole attack is fairly instructive that with modern Naval vessels this isn't nessesarily a given. I believe the hole ripped into the side of the USS Cole was 4-5 if not 8 hexes large.

 

TB

[Kristopher]

Re: Hero is broken

 

While I agree that this is true in principle, the USS Cole attack is fairly instructive that with modern Naval vessels this isn't nessesarily a given. I believe the hole ripped into the side of the USS Cole was 4-5 if not 8 hexes large.

 

TB

 

You're right, and I was editing my post to make it more clear at about the same time you were posting yours.

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Keep in mind that a naval vessel doesn't have to be reduced to nothingness to render it "dead"' date=' any more than a person does. Putting a 1-hex hole in the ship below the waterline might just sink it.[/quote']Not a large modern military ship. Everything is compartmentalized, and "Damage Control" of hull intergrity is pretty fail-safe. I'm not so sure about submarines, though. (Are there any Submariners on the Board who could address this issue? )

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

OK a single shot from a very large non-area-effect attack can destroy something like a borg cube. So where are you getting the idea that a non-area-effect attack can't destroy more than a single hex in one shot? Those two things sound contradictory.

 

Is there a specific place in the rule book where it makes the statement about the one-hex limit?

 

Your original question was whether a character that hits the Earth's ground at super-high speeds should affect more than one hex, even though there's no Area of Effect naked Advantage to apply to the Move Through.

 

Answer: It doesn't matter if it affects ALL of the Earth's hexes, or just one. Only the Earth takes damage. Another character standing one hex away from the impact point takes no damage. The only object that will ever take any damage from the "Meteor" attack you suggest would be the Earth, unless you utilize a naked Area of Effect Advantage to the attack.

 

The main thing about Area of Effect is: How many targets can you hit? Even if you DO hit a gigantic object with an Area of Effect attack, it still takes damage from the attack only once.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Not a large modern military ship. Everything is compartmentalized' date=' and "Damage Control" of hull intergrity is pretty fail-safe. I'm not so sure about submarines, though. (Are there any Submariners on the Board who could address this issue? )[/quote']

 

Right here!

 

Submarines are also compartmentalized, but to a much lesser degree than surface vessels. In general there are three major compartments on an Attack Sub. (many more on a ballistic missile sub, but I don't know how many) If one of your major compartments on an attack sub are severly compromised, kiss it goodbye in any case.

 

Of course, if they can initiate an Emergency Blow in time, then they might be okay. This is one of the reasons submariners get more money than surface fleet....

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Right here!

 

Submarines are also compartmentalized, but to a much lesser degree than surface vessels. In general there are three major compartments on an Attack Sub. (many more on a ballistic missile sub, but I don't know how many) If one of your major compartments on an attack sub are severly compromised, kiss it goodbye in any case.

 

Of course, if they can initiate an Emergency Blow in time, then they might be okay. This is one of the reasons submariners get more money than surface fleet....

"Emergency Blow," hmm...? I guess all the rumors I heard, were true.

 

Were you ever stationed at Bangor?

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Consequently... do you pronounce it "Submariner," or "Submar-een-er?" It's a pet peeve of mine...

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Consequently... do you pronounce it "Submariner' date='" or "Submar-een-er?" It's a pet peeve of mine...[/quote']

 

Dunno how anyone pronounces it, but the correct pronunciation is "sub MAIR uh ner." Not your technical dictionary pronunciation guide with schwa sounds and everything, but it gets the job done.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Keep in mind that a naval vessel doesn't have to be reduced to nothingness to render it "dead", any more than a person does. Putting a 1-hex hole in the ship below the waterline might just sink it -- or it might not, depending on other factors.

 

Also keep in mind that for ships' hulls, thickness matters along with what they're made of. 24" thick steel is a lot harder to damage or destroy than 4" thick steel.

Ah, but the also cover totally destroying objects as well, it just takes twice as much BODY.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I think there needs to be some rules expansion with regards to damaging massive objects, possible defining something akin to "mega-damage" or "mega-body", this also segues into the problem of an entire planet having only 30-40 Body.

 

What do you fellow Herophiles think?

What sort of rules could be added to emiliarate some of these thorny issues?

 

TB

Rifts has "Mega-Body" and "Mega-Damage."

 

And it has all sorts of different scales for STR. There is "Normal Strength," "Extraodrinary Strength," "Robotic Strength," "SuperNatural Strength," "Hyper Strength," "Extra-Hyper Strength," "Super-Mega Strength," "Extra-Super-Mega Strength." Each one has a different damage table, and a different lift table.

 

But I have an interesting idea, maybe they should just use a single exponential table instead. That is what scientists do for earthquakes, rather than having mulitple types of earthquake (micro-quake, normal-quake, mega-quake) they have one simple scale that handles all types of earthquakes.

 

I don't get why people think that having an exponential amounts to some kind of error. IMO exponential scales are perfect for a game with a wide range of possibilities.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Your original question was whether a character that hits the Earth's ground at super-high speeds should affect more than one hex, even though there's no Area of Effect naked Advantage to apply to the Move Through.

You are not going back far enough, the original question was motivated by the following statement:

 

I don't find the +1 BOD = x2 Mass so critically problematic, the simple problem is the entire nature of inflicting damage on a small subset of a large object, and that's a different issue. A 500d6 attack that hits 1 hex is still only 1 hex of the Earth. There should be similar questions in regard to a pin-prick attack against a person IF that attack were truly so microscopic and without explosive ramifications.

It seems to me that the idea being proposed here is that a normal attack can not damage any more than a single hex of a large object. Which implies that any huge target would be immune to a normal (non-area-effect) attack.

 

 

Answer: It doesn't matter if it affects ALL of the Earth's hexes, or just one. Only the Earth takes damage. Another character standing one hex away from the impact point takes no damage. The only object that will ever take any damage from the "Meteor" attack you suggest would be the Earth, unless you utilize a naked Area of Effect Advantage to the attack.

 

The main thing about Area of Effect is: How many targets can you hit? Even if you DO hit a gigantic object with an Area of Effect attack, it still takes damage from the attack only once.

I basically see the Area Effect rules exactly as you've described them. They allow you to hit multiple targets. And that is all that they do.

 

If you want to take out Godzilla, or a Borg Cube, or the Death Star, or a Planet, having an "Mega-Scale Area Effect attack" is irrelevant. What you need is a massive attack like a 200d6 EB.

 

Saying that a 500d6 EB should only destroy a single hex of a large object does not make sense to me (from either a "real-world" perspective or an "in-game" perspective). IMO normal attacks do not have any area of effect, instead they attack a single target, which could be an ant, or Godzilla, or the Death Star, or the Earth.

[Silbeg]

Re: Hero is broken

 

G's team learns to coordinate their attacks, and so the group of four get to add their damage. Now it's 4d6 * 4, or 16d6 / phase. That's an average of 56 STUN. Working together, G's team takes out J with one blow!

 

Not sure where this comes from?

 

If they are coordinating, you add the damage that the target takes (after defenses) to determine if the target is stunned. You do not add the damage.

 

I am sure this has been stated somewhere in this thread, but I had to say this.

 

AUGH!!!!!!!

[zornwil]

Re: Hero is broken

 

(snip)

 

It seems to me that the idea being proposed here is that a normal attack can not damage any more than a single hex of a large object. Which implies that any huge target would be immune to a normal (non-area-effect) attack.

 

 

Not really, just indicating that at higher scales of activity, the damage we do to a single hex on Earth is like attacking a tiny little bit of a character as opposed to a whole character, something not really accounted for in the rules directly except I believe for some ideas in Star Hero.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

Not really' date=' just indicating that at higher scales of activity, the damage we do to a single hex on Earth is like attacking a tiny little bit of a character as opposed to a whole character, something not really accounted for in the rules directly except I believe for some ideas in Star Hero.[/quote']

I must not be understanding what you are trying to say here.

 

Wouldn't that argument apply exactly to attacking a mile high monster?

 

Specifically, to slightly re-worded your statement above (I simply replaced "Earth" with "Mile High Monster") : "the damage we do to a single hex on a Mile High Monster is like attacking a tiny little bit of a character as opposed to a whole character"

 

It seems like esentially the same argument to me.

[Kristopher]

Re: Hero is broken

 

The earth is 8000 times larger in diameter than a mille-high monster is tall.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I must not be understanding what you are trying to say here.

 

Wouldn't that argument apply exactly to attacking a mile high monster?

 

The earth is 8000 times larger in diameter than a mille-high monster is tall.

 

Going beyond "it's all relative", fire a .45 calibre bullet direcly between the eyes of a store mannequin hurtling towards you at 30 kph. Will it do a lot of damage/stop the mannequin?

 

Now fire at a grizzly bear instead. I bet he's more likely to stop!

 

A hole in an inanimate object commonly has considerably less ramifications than a hole in a creature with terrestrial biology. Take 100,000 kilos of the Earth - significant, but it won't destroy the planet. Carve a kilo out of a human and what happens?

[Mister E]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I must not be understanding what you are trying to say here.

 

Wouldn't that argument apply exactly to attacking a mile high monster?

 

Specifically, to slightly re-worded your statement above (I simply replaced "Earth" with "Mile High Monster") : "the damage we do to a single hex on a Mile High Monster is like attacking a tiny little bit of a character as opposed to a whole character"

 

It seems like esentially the same argument to me.

I think the difference is simply the fact that a Mile High Monster is a single target. I suppose you could go as far as to make the claim that said MHM exists in a different Macro-Sized Dimension, but barring that, a target is a target. A creature that big should be able to defend itself against most otherwise normal attacks.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

The earth is 8000 times larger in diameter than a mille-high monster is tall.

Fine. We can say it is an 8,000 mile high creature if you want.

 

The point is that the same argument could be made with any sufficiently large creature/object.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

A hole in an inanimate object commonly has considerably less ramifications than a hole in a creature with terrestrial biology.

That is a whole (hole) different argument. If you don't like the current system as it handles BODY damage to animate vs inanimate objects, we should take that up else where.

 

Zornwil compared a normal attack on the Earth to a "pin-prick" against a normal person. IMO that is a scale argument rather than an animate vs inanimate argument.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

I think the difference is simply the fact that a Mile High Monster is a single target.

OK now we are getting somewhere.

 

But why is it that a single spaceship or mega creature (which might be much bigger than the Earth) is considered a "single target" while the Earth is not?

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Hero is broken

 

We can't because people and gadgets are objects with damagable internal parts. The Earthe and other massive objects are for this intent inert. A single 200d6 EB or 1000d6 EB would do nothing but pulverize the section of the Earth it hit, and disapate harmlessly.

 

Why?

 

Because that is how HERO was built. It was not built to model the interactions of megadamage versus planetary objects. Thus the Earth does not have a measly 89 Body despite the applications of the exponential system. It likely has a body score well into the millions and it (the earth) is only a small astronomical body, Jupiter and the Sun would likely have Body scores in the Billions.

 

IMO the use of the rules should be restricted to the matter they deal with well, like how much damage Mechanon can take before his head detaches and his body explodes.

 

Hawksmoor

[Fox1]

Re: Hero is broken

 

OK now we are getting somewhere.

 

But why is it that a single spaceship or mega creature (which might be much bigger than the Earth) is considered a "single target" while the Earth is not?

 

And how about something like a Dyson Sphere? Is it a single target?

 

You hate the answer, but it's the one that applies in HERO. The determination of single target status is solely driven by genre as judged by the GM.

[Warp9]

Re: Hero is broken

 

We can't because people and gadgets are objects with damagable internal parts. The Earthe and other massive objects are for this intent inert. A single 200d6 EB or 1000d6 EB would do nothing but pulverize the section of the Earth it hit, and disapate harmlessly.

 

Why?

 

Because that is how HERO was built. It was not built to model the interactions of megadamage versus planetary objects. Thus the Earth does not have a measly 89 Body despite the applications of the exponential system. It likely has a body score well into the millions and it (the earth) is only a small astronomical body, Jupiter and the Sun would likely have Body scores in the Billions.

 

IMO the use of the rules should be restricted to the matter they deal with well, like how much damage Mechanon can take before his head detaches and his body explodes.

 

Hawksmoor

If you look at the Object Body Table (in the "Breaking Things" section) you'll notice 3 columns.

 

The first and toughest (highest body) column is for "Living Objects or Vehicles"

 

The Second for simple "Unliving" objects.

 

And the Third column for "Complex" unliving objects (the lowest body objects).

 

 

It looks to me like HERO is built to rate simple unliving objects on an exponential scale.

 

Are you saying that the +1 BODY per X2 Mass does not apply to unliving objects unless they have a more complex inner design of "damagable internal parts" ?

 

Or are you saying that we should simply throw out the second column of the Object Body Chart?